AP .061 wasp troubles
12-30-2008, 01:53 PM
#26
RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Andy,
Then based on your examination and conclusion, the "excessive clearance" was from the original machining. Can we then conclude the case IS NOT actually wearing out all, but the "slop" was always there?
How much running has your "oldest" Wasp had and have you seen any "increase" in the crank to case clearance after extensive use?
Mike
Then based on your examination and conclusion, the "excessive clearance" was from the original machining. Can we then conclude the case IS NOT actually wearing out all, but the "slop" was always there?
How much running has your "oldest" Wasp had and have you seen any "increase" in the crank to case clearance after extensive use?
Mike
12-30-2008, 08:59 PM
#27
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RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Mike,
Yes, just like in the video of the BigBee and the four stroke, you could wiggle the prop and see lots of play. In fact, if you did this and looked into the exhaust port, you'd see the piston ride up and down. Not as bad, mind you, as the four stroke but really, way out of line.
I bought one after the other hoping to get a good one but that never happened. I'd been bushing Norvel cases when they got a bit sloppy and it's a chore with the simple equipment I've got so when I heard that the Wasp was bronze bushed, I gave it a try. In the end, I had to bush the new case anyway. I kept the bushed one and used the other two for parts for my Norvels.
The bushed one saw limited service for one summer. The only wear was a bit of polishing of the crank at both ends.
The LiteMachines versions of the Norvel .06 is bushed at the crank end and the .074 version is bushed both ends. These are perfectly done and look to be honed.
Yes, just like in the video of the BigBee and the four stroke, you could wiggle the prop and see lots of play. In fact, if you did this and looked into the exhaust port, you'd see the piston ride up and down. Not as bad, mind you, as the four stroke but really, way out of line.
I bought one after the other hoping to get a good one but that never happened. I'd been bushing Norvel cases when they got a bit sloppy and it's a chore with the simple equipment I've got so when I heard that the Wasp was bronze bushed, I gave it a try. In the end, I had to bush the new case anyway. I kept the bushed one and used the other two for parts for my Norvels.
The bushed one saw limited service for one summer. The only wear was a bit of polishing of the crank at both ends.
The LiteMachines versions of the Norvel .06 is bushed at the crank end and the .074 version is bushed both ends. These are perfectly done and look to be honed.
12-30-2008, 09:44 PM
#28
RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Andy,
The one Wasp I have has probably run about 2 quarts of fuel, 25% Nitro and 20-23% blended oil. I do not have any play in the crank and it runs fine. What you are telling me is your engines didn't wear out, you purchased them new with this excess clearance problem. If that is so, then I don't necessarily need to worry about the case wearing out. Did I understand you correctly?
Mike
The one Wasp I have has probably run about 2 quarts of fuel, 25% Nitro and 20-23% blended oil. I do not have any play in the crank and it runs fine. What you are telling me is your engines didn't wear out, you purchased them new with this excess clearance problem. If that is so, then I don't necessarily need to worry about the case wearing out. Did I understand you correctly?
Mike
12-30-2008, 10:28 PM
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RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Mike,
If the one you have has a proper fit, and it's bronze bushed all the way as mine were, yes, this one should just run and run.
I have some old OS .10 engines that are bushed and they show no wear at all after many gallons of fuel through them. One of these took even more abuse as I "bored" it for more power. This was done by stuffing the innards of a .15 ABC into the .10. A later project was boring AND stroking by also stuffing the crank from a very old OS .15, steel/iron engine. This one had the extra throw but the shank of the crank had the same diameter as the .10.
OS engines are tough and well made. If only they made an RC 1/2A engine. For all the variety of engines that they make, It's a puzzle to me why they don't fill a market that they'd have all to themselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjH2h...eature=channel
If the one you have has a proper fit, and it's bronze bushed all the way as mine were, yes, this one should just run and run.
I have some old OS .10 engines that are bushed and they show no wear at all after many gallons of fuel through them. One of these took even more abuse as I "bored" it for more power. This was done by stuffing the innards of a .15 ABC into the .10. A later project was boring AND stroking by also stuffing the crank from a very old OS .15, steel/iron engine. This one had the extra throw but the shank of the crank had the same diameter as the .10.
OS engines are tough and well made. If only they made an RC 1/2A engine. For all the variety of engines that they make, It's a puzzle to me why they don't fill a market that they'd have all to themselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjH2h...eature=channel
12-31-2008, 12:18 AM
#30
RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Andy,
Thanks for your opinion as it is obviously good news. I will have to disassemble my engine to see if it is bushed. Now, having had this discussion with you, how do you explain the few guys on this forum, such as Combat Pig for one, who claims the engines wore out with use? Is it possible some of the earlier Wasp engines did not have a bushed casing? If not, do you then think the engines had "too much" clearance from the factory, as you indicated two of yours had, and the excess play in the crank elongated the bore on the case while running to the point it eventually caused the poor performance?
Mike
Thanks for your opinion as it is obviously good news. I will have to disassemble my engine to see if it is bushed. Now, having had this discussion with you, how do you explain the few guys on this forum, such as Combat Pig for one, who claims the engines wore out with use? Is it possible some of the earlier Wasp engines did not have a bushed casing? If not, do you then think the engines had "too much" clearance from the factory, as you indicated two of yours had, and the excess play in the crank elongated the bore on the case while running to the point it eventually caused the poor performance?
Mike
12-31-2008, 12:54 AM
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RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Mike,
Yes, I do believe that the early Wasp engines had plain cases. I vaguely recall this, although that was some 4 years ago and the synapses don't s'napse as well as they used to. And if there was excess slop in that first engine, I'm sure I would have noticed it. This was a Wasp that was sent to me from a diesel fan in Singapore that wanted me to dieselize it for him. I could check with him but we've lost touch.
Certainly there have been changes made to the Wasp,,, one I'm sure of is the crank. Originally they used a machine screw and washer for the prop like Norvel and Cox. More recent models have a threaded stub and nut and washer like most larger engines.
When the Wasp first came out, it was advertised as ABC and that it had ball bearings. Lots of unhappy guys reported the reality and I never went for one. But when it was revealed that the case was bushed,,,
The Wasp case has a somewhat different look to the metal it's made of and it may not be of the high silicon variety. This may account for the premature wear in the non bushed cases. I can't fathom it but for the three that I got, they gave you a bushed case because of wear in the old case but then bored it out too big. Bad production run? The three I bought were spread over several years so I don't think so.
Just a while ago, I was sorting out some old engines and came across my G Mark .06. Yup, I thought so, a beautifully bushed case. Despite many gallons of fuel through it, you can still see some crosshatch marks in the bore. I'm trying not to make a big deal of this but for one more step, they couldn't hone the bushing?? Another 5 dollars?
Yes, I do believe that the early Wasp engines had plain cases. I vaguely recall this, although that was some 4 years ago and the synapses don't s'napse as well as they used to. And if there was excess slop in that first engine, I'm sure I would have noticed it. This was a Wasp that was sent to me from a diesel fan in Singapore that wanted me to dieselize it for him. I could check with him but we've lost touch.
Certainly there have been changes made to the Wasp,,, one I'm sure of is the crank. Originally they used a machine screw and washer for the prop like Norvel and Cox. More recent models have a threaded stub and nut and washer like most larger engines.
When the Wasp first came out, it was advertised as ABC and that it had ball bearings. Lots of unhappy guys reported the reality and I never went for one. But when it was revealed that the case was bushed,,,
The Wasp case has a somewhat different look to the metal it's made of and it may not be of the high silicon variety. This may account for the premature wear in the non bushed cases. I can't fathom it but for the three that I got, they gave you a bushed case because of wear in the old case but then bored it out too big. Bad production run? The three I bought were spread over several years so I don't think so.
Just a while ago, I was sorting out some old engines and came across my G Mark .06. Yup, I thought so, a beautifully bushed case. Despite many gallons of fuel through it, you can still see some crosshatch marks in the bore. I'm trying not to make a big deal of this but for one more step, they couldn't hone the bushing?? Another 5 dollars?
12-31-2008, 01:01 AM
#32
RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Andy,
It just so happens I bought a G-Mark .061 yesterday here on RCU. I owned one in 1981 when I first started flying. I hope the used one I bought is in great running shape. By the way, what is the procedure for re-bushing the engine? You mentioned you have minimal tool capacity, so how do you do it and what material and material supplier do you use?
Regards,
It just so happens I bought a G-Mark .061 yesterday here on RCU. I owned one in 1981 when I first started flying. I hope the used one I bought is in great running shape. By the way, what is the procedure for re-bushing the engine? You mentioned you have minimal tool capacity, so how do you do it and what material and material supplier do you use?
Regards,
12-31-2008, 01:29 AM
#33
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RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Mike,
Good news, the G Mark is a great little engine. The first true, RC 1/2A as far as I know. It had a proper muffler and throttle. One negative aspect would be that it uses a stock, glow plug and not a glow head. It's been illustrated that you can lose some 1500 RPM by swapping in a stock glow plug head into a Cox engine. Also, the Brodak, which you can see here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHQhD...e=channel_page did only 12K initially. Using a Norvel .074 plug under the head or making an insert to take a turbo plug boosted power a full 1500 RPM. From there, I installed the guts of an early Norvel AAN 06 taking this neat little engine to 19K plus.
The other maybe issue, with the G Mark is the lack of an adjustable airbleed. Various factors can conspire to give you good idle and transition on a certain fuel on a certain day. For instance. If the engine loads up after a few minutes of idling, the idle mixture is too rich. This will give you poor acceleration with spitting, popping and f*rting before the engine clears itself. But adding some head clearance and reducing compression ratio causes the need to lean the main needle a bit and this will in turn lean out the low end and you'll get quite acceptable throttling. But change anything like prop size or type, nitro content or even brand of fuel, or get a hot, muggy day and that collection of parameters won't be quite right.
The solution is to be able to adjust the idle mixture just like in "real" engines.
My last good G Mark suffered crash damage which broke the muffler. Combat Pig came through with a replacement some two years ago (thanks, CP) and I've been meaning to revive this beauty with a turbo insert. The hitch was that I cannibalized the throttle for other engines but the Brodak throttle is a near perfect clone so this may happen this winter.
Good news, the G Mark is a great little engine. The first true, RC 1/2A as far as I know. It had a proper muffler and throttle. One negative aspect would be that it uses a stock, glow plug and not a glow head. It's been illustrated that you can lose some 1500 RPM by swapping in a stock glow plug head into a Cox engine. Also, the Brodak, which you can see here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHQhD...e=channel_page did only 12K initially. Using a Norvel .074 plug under the head or making an insert to take a turbo plug boosted power a full 1500 RPM. From there, I installed the guts of an early Norvel AAN 06 taking this neat little engine to 19K plus.
The other maybe issue, with the G Mark is the lack of an adjustable airbleed. Various factors can conspire to give you good idle and transition on a certain fuel on a certain day. For instance. If the engine loads up after a few minutes of idling, the idle mixture is too rich. This will give you poor acceleration with spitting, popping and f*rting before the engine clears itself. But adding some head clearance and reducing compression ratio causes the need to lean the main needle a bit and this will in turn lean out the low end and you'll get quite acceptable throttling. But change anything like prop size or type, nitro content or even brand of fuel, or get a hot, muggy day and that collection of parameters won't be quite right.
The solution is to be able to adjust the idle mixture just like in "real" engines.
My last good G Mark suffered crash damage which broke the muffler. Combat Pig came through with a replacement some two years ago (thanks, CP) and I've been meaning to revive this beauty with a turbo insert. The hitch was that I cannibalized the throttle for other engines but the Brodak throttle is a near perfect clone so this may happen this winter.
12-31-2008, 01:39 AM
#34
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RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Oh yes,
About rebushing an engine. First I make two bushings on the lathe with the bore a hair undersize. Then I turn some dowel that's just a sneaky, tight fit into the bushings. From there, I charge the dowel "hone" with diamond paste and proceed to work the bore of the bushings to an oh so perfect fit. I've got them to the point where when cool, they wouldn't go on. Warm them up with your hands and they'd slip on. A one time fluke for sure.
In any event, from there, I bore out the case for a decidedly sloppy fit on the OD of the bushings. The OD is crosshatched with the edge of a small file for grip. Then I apply a very thin smear of JB Weld on to the bushing OD and the case ID. This is tricky, you need to make sure you get just enough. The reason is that you use the oiled up crank to line up the bushings. The assembly is left to cure overnight and a light tap drives the crank out. Occasionally I do get a bit of excess which I have to carefully pick away with the tip of an Exacto blade.
About rebushing an engine. First I make two bushings on the lathe with the bore a hair undersize. Then I turn some dowel that's just a sneaky, tight fit into the bushings. From there, I charge the dowel "hone" with diamond paste and proceed to work the bore of the bushings to an oh so perfect fit. I've got them to the point where when cool, they wouldn't go on. Warm them up with your hands and they'd slip on. A one time fluke for sure.
In any event, from there, I bore out the case for a decidedly sloppy fit on the OD of the bushings. The OD is crosshatched with the edge of a small file for grip. Then I apply a very thin smear of JB Weld on to the bushing OD and the case ID. This is tricky, you need to make sure you get just enough. The reason is that you use the oiled up crank to line up the bushings. The assembly is left to cure overnight and a light tap drives the crank out. Occasionally I do get a bit of excess which I have to carefully pick away with the tip of an Exacto blade.
12-31-2008, 03:22 AM
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RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Andy,
As far as I can understand, no one knows what has bought exactly. The AP marketing department tell us it is true ABC technology (notice it on its package box). You tell me that it is most probably AAN technology, but as I can understand, you are not so sure. Others, say it is AAC. At last, where or who can give me a definite answer?
Rgrds,
Nikolas
As far as I can understand, no one knows what has bought exactly. The AP marketing department tell us it is true ABC technology (notice it on its package box). You tell me that it is most probably AAN technology, but as I can understand, you are not so sure. Others, say it is AAC. At last, where or who can give me a definite answer?
Rgrds,
Nikolas
12-31-2008, 04:05 AM
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RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Hi Nikolas,
I am sure that the cylinder is aluminum, as I've machined them. I'm also familiar with the look of true chrome. Also, it's more expensive, I've been told, to chrome aluminum, so not many engine makers do that. It's definitely not a brass cylinder. So, for the price that they charge for this engine, it appears to be an electroless, NICKLE plated, aluminum cylinder.
Electroless nickle plating needs no electric apparatus, you just bring the solution to a simmer, immerse your part into it and let it plate till you achieve the desired thickness.
You can get kits for do it yourself plating, here, http://www.caswellplating.com/
True chrome plating, also plates unevenly at the edges so a final honing must be done and that costs more money to do. Electroless plating does so evenly all over the part, even into blind holes and does not need final honing.
But you are right I am not 100% sure that the plating is not chrome. But it's definitely NOT ABC as there is no brass (or bronze) except for the crankcase.
Some engine makers say ABC and when questioned they say, oh, we meant that it was an ABC TYPE of engine as opposed to a steel/iron engine as with a Cox or Brodak unit.
Welcome to George Orwell's universe. [X(]
I am sure that the cylinder is aluminum, as I've machined them. I'm also familiar with the look of true chrome. Also, it's more expensive, I've been told, to chrome aluminum, so not many engine makers do that. It's definitely not a brass cylinder. So, for the price that they charge for this engine, it appears to be an electroless, NICKLE plated, aluminum cylinder.
Electroless nickle plating needs no electric apparatus, you just bring the solution to a simmer, immerse your part into it and let it plate till you achieve the desired thickness.
You can get kits for do it yourself plating, here, http://www.caswellplating.com/
True chrome plating, also plates unevenly at the edges so a final honing must be done and that costs more money to do. Electroless plating does so evenly all over the part, even into blind holes and does not need final honing.
But you are right I am not 100% sure that the plating is not chrome. But it's definitely NOT ABC as there is no brass (or bronze) except for the crankcase.
Some engine makers say ABC and when questioned they say, oh, we meant that it was an ABC TYPE of engine as opposed to a steel/iron engine as with a Cox or Brodak unit.
Welcome to George Orwell's universe. [X(]
12-31-2008, 07:54 AM
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RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Andy,
Indeed as I know it is quite difficult (see: costly) to apply chrome coating on aluminum substrate. The fact that you know definitely that the cylinder is aluminum makes your AAN assumption more understandable, since the price is low and I am sure the chinese wouldn't bother more increasing the production costs by applying chrome on aluminum!
Anyhow, this solution makes the engine considerably lighter, I think, although I doubt its durability on hard use. This is something I have to discover after flying my coroplast C/L combat more.
Rgrds,
Nikolas
Indeed as I know it is quite difficult (see: costly) to apply chrome coating on aluminum substrate. The fact that you know definitely that the cylinder is aluminum makes your AAN assumption more understandable, since the price is low and I am sure the chinese wouldn't bother more increasing the production costs by applying chrome on aluminum!
Anyhow, this solution makes the engine considerably lighter, I think, although I doubt its durability on hard use. This is something I have to discover after flying my coroplast C/L combat more.
Rgrds,
Nikolas
01-02-2009, 07:37 PM
#39
RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Andy,
I received the G-Mark .061 we previously discussed. All looks great except the threads on the needle valve and housing are very loose and I can push or pull on the needle and have it skip over a couple of threads. They look more loose than stripped. Any suggestions?
Mike
I received the G-Mark .061 we previously discussed. All looks great except the threads on the needle valve and housing are very loose and I can push or pull on the needle and have it skip over a couple of threads. They look more loose than stripped. Any suggestions?
Mike
01-03-2009, 03:01 AM
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RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Mike,
If you can jump threads by tugging on the needle, then it sounds like the threads are stripped. Your best bet is to try and get a throttle from Brodak. Their needle valve assembly is an exact match to the G Mark unit.
If you can jump threads by tugging on the needle, then it sounds like the threads are stripped. Your best bet is to try and get a throttle from Brodak. Their needle valve assembly is an exact match to the G Mark unit.
01-03-2009, 08:21 AM
#41
RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Just be observant with those. I've had a problem with my CS needle assemblies (I have two) on the RC version. There is a design/mashining error and the hole in the black platic gets blocked by the inner brass part. Took me a while to figure this one out... [:@]
Symtoms are that you need to open the needle a lot (several turns) at high throttle setting compare to a low one wich only needs about 1/4 from fully closed.
It is fairly easy to fix though, I just shaved of a bit of the plastic (about 0.5mm) and then it works fine. It now only needs about 1/2 turn on the needle through out the whole range...
Symtoms are that you need to open the needle a lot (several turns) at high throttle setting compare to a low one wich only needs about 1/4 from fully closed.
It is fairly easy to fix though, I just shaved of a bit of the plastic (about 0.5mm) and then it works fine. It now only needs about 1/2 turn on the needle through out the whole range...
01-03-2009, 01:20 PM
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RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Andy,
I was looking at the MECOA site, in the frequently asked technical questions page. It shows some differently plated liners ABC, ABN and AAC. Looking at those photos and reading also through Caswell plating and comparing with the AP 061's cylinder, I 've thought more of what the Wasp technology might be.
If we suppose that the cylinder is aluminum substrate (which you say it is, as you ve machined it and I hope you refer to the MK II version of the engine), then you will agree with me that it has a more or less brassy appearance on the outside. Is it possible that it is electroless Nickel plated, since it has this appearance? Shouldn't it appear more "shiny", since nickel is applied inside the cylinder as well as outside?
So, my suggestion is that it might be actually chrome plated inside (electrolytically). And what this dark mat surface outside might be? I guess a protective oxide layer?
Rgrds,
Nikolas
I was looking at the MECOA site, in the frequently asked technical questions page. It shows some differently plated liners ABC, ABN and AAC. Looking at those photos and reading also through Caswell plating and comparing with the AP 061's cylinder, I 've thought more of what the Wasp technology might be.
If we suppose that the cylinder is aluminum substrate (which you say it is, as you ve machined it and I hope you refer to the MK II version of the engine), then you will agree with me that it has a more or less brassy appearance on the outside. Is it possible that it is electroless Nickel plated, since it has this appearance? Shouldn't it appear more "shiny", since nickel is applied inside the cylinder as well as outside?
So, my suggestion is that it might be actually chrome plated inside (electrolytically). And what this dark mat surface outside might be? I guess a protective oxide layer?
Rgrds,
Nikolas
01-03-2009, 01:58 PM
#43
RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Andy,
I visited the Brodak website and there is nothing about a throttle. The needle valve assemblies listed are all for control line engines. What is it specifically you are referring to?
Mike
I visited the Brodak website and there is nothing about a throttle. The needle valve assemblies listed are all for control line engines. What is it specifically you are referring to?
Mike
01-04-2009, 03:53 AM
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RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Nikolas,
It just might be that the ID of the cylinder IS chrome plated. It's my understanding that chrome sticks poorly to aluminum but nickle is no problem. Then, chrome sticks really well to nickle so your suggestion has merit.
If you ask though, they will tell you that their engine is ABC. But there's no brass, so there might not be any chrome either.
I just did a bit of a search and one way to test for chrome or nickel is to apply hydrochloric acid to the part in question. The chrome will react readily but the nickel will resist the acid far longer. I'd have to try this to confirm it.
It just might be that the ID of the cylinder IS chrome plated. It's my understanding that chrome sticks poorly to aluminum but nickle is no problem. Then, chrome sticks really well to nickle so your suggestion has merit.
If you ask though, they will tell you that their engine is ABC. But there's no brass, so there might not be any chrome either.
I just did a bit of a search and one way to test for chrome or nickel is to apply hydrochloric acid to the part in question. The chrome will react readily but the nickel will resist the acid far longer. I'd have to try this to confirm it.
01-09-2009, 12:06 PM
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RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Andy,
According to Todd Nicholson, of Global Hobbies Distributors, whom I 've contacted, the AP .061 is an ABC engine with an "aluminum piston in a chrome plated brass sleeve"...
I will have to take it to the metallographic labs of the National Technical University of Athens to perform a destructive testing in order to find out what it is, at last!
According to Todd Nicholson, of Global Hobbies Distributors, whom I 've contacted, the AP .061 is an ABC engine with an "aluminum piston in a chrome plated brass sleeve"...
I will have to take it to the metallographic labs of the National Technical University of Athens to perform a destructive testing in order to find out what it is, at last!
01-09-2009, 03:50 PM
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RE: AP .061 wasp troubles
Hi Nikolas,
OK, that would be interesting. Whatever metal the cylinder proves out to be, see if you can have them determine the grade of the cylinder AND also of the piston.
OK, that would be interesting. Whatever metal the cylinder proves out to be, see if you can have them determine the grade of the cylinder AND also of the piston.
