Cox International

My Feedback: (10)

Hello everyone!

First, to the ones that keep reporting our posts, we are paying advertisers on this site; hence entitled to further our cause.

In a nutshell, here is an update as to what we are currently doing and some plans for the future:

We have manufactured over 20 different Cox parts this year and they are listed for sale.

We have received the last 6 pallets from Cox (mostly electric fly stuff) a couple of weeks ago and are listing new parts every day.

We received aprx 220,000 plastic parts from a former Cox manufacturer (including Tee Dee 049 carb bodies) last week and are also listing daily.

A whole slew of products, including aluminium and plastic fuel tanks, are on the way to us and should be listed by, say, mid-January or so.

We have many more items in the sample stage; whereas production might happen in the spring.

The issue here is $$’s. Many, if not most of you, may not know that manufacturing something in OEM Cox commercial quality is cost prohibitive. Here is a link to a post of ours explaining the cost to make a Cox .049 8cc plastic fuel tank:

http://coxengines.ca/pages.php?pageid=20

As you can see, the tooling costs alone are aprx. $38,000. And that is before we even manufacture a single tank. And then, we only have a tank, not to speak of the hundreds of other parts we get requests for.

Engines:

Basic production engines are only so inexpensive because we bought 35,000 of them from Cox at sub-par pricing. They are currently being sold at way below production cost, although that is bound to change over time as supplies dry up. Expect to see $29.95 Surestarts in the not-so-distant future.

Tee Dee .049:

We are seriously looking into making one in the Spring. That is the good news. The bad news? We need aprx $150,000.00 of capital for the project.

Anyone that has that kind of coin lying around and willing to lend it to us, please feel free to drop us a line.

With a run of 3,000 engines it will cost about $50/engine to manufacture, meaning the retail price will be in the $100 range. Hopefully, all those of you clamouring for the little beast will actually step up to the plate and buy it.

010 – 020 – 074 - 09 – 15

Probably not, see reason above. The market is too small to absorb 3,000 each of those.

Please don’t forget that we are but a mom-and-pop operation using our life savings for what could be construed as a risky, diminishing, business.

We are doing our best to supply the 1/2A modelling community with engines and parts but are limited by how much $$ we have in our bank account (currently depleted).

We have no intention of reviving Cox. Well… if one or more of you are willing to put up 15-20 Million $$’s we might consider it.

Anyhow, tongue-in-cheek, but I did want to take the opportunity to clarify that manufacturing often takes capital that exceeds our means.

We do thank each and every one of you that has supported us and we look forward to continuing to serve your Cox requirements.

Happy holidays!

Bernie and Xena
www.coxengines.ca

Andrew

Thank you. Any information coming from one of the very few remaining sources for parts is always most welcome.

andrew

BMatthews

Some excellent reporting there.

If any of the Cox engines will do well with a new batch it would have to be the TeeDee .049. But I wonder if even that will prove a success. At that price you're doing battle with the hoards of used or NOS that is out there and for sale. Modellers, being by definition a frugal lot are going to opt for the low time used engine and just buy a NOS cylinder and piston from you and call it good because they can do it for cheaper. And that tendency will continue for some time to come I would think. And by the time the TeeDees are all used up I would think that the last of us engine lovers will have moved on to that flying field in the sky. I know for a fact that my free flight days are numbered because when I go down to Tacoma WA or Albany OR for the meets I'm almost one of the juniors at 56 years of age. Yeah there's 4 or 5 folks in their 30's and 40's but the bulk of the 35 odd flyers that come out are firmly on old age security.

If you never do anything more than act as the repository and supplier of what is left then you've already done a wonderful service for us small engine folks.

Cox International

My Feedback: (10)

LOL & AMEN

Bernie

Remby

My Feedback: (3)

The flyers and small engine users here will continue to use and need parts and engines for the time being. I know I will continue to look for Cox engines, and the parts needed to keep using them. It is getting harder to find just about everything for the small class that most here fly with, and collect.

As long as I can get what I need, the engines I have and want to use will continue to make noise in this neck of the woods. I thank you for the service of trying to keep us going, and hope we are doing the same for you Bernie.

Hope your efforts are fruitful and bring what is needed and looked for by you and yours.

ChopperMike

Thanks for the info/update. I can definitely see that it's a pricey and risky endeavor to produce new engines and parts for what is a dwindling part of the hobby, what with all the electric options out there. I myself converted over to electric about five years ago and all are electric but my largest model, a 1/3 scale DL-50 powered Spacewalker. Still, I couldn't resist the urge to re-kindle my love of Cox engines from when I was a kid (I turned 52 last week). I plan to build and fly both RC and C/L Cox powered models and also a Fox .35 Stunt powered C/L Flite Streak. I even acquired a NIB 1953 Fox .35 Stunt, although it will be going into a display case, not my new Flite Streak!

Right after I placed my order with you guys for some Sure Start and Babe Bees and other parts a few months ago I emailed you about the possibility of producing the TD .049 but I've since found online several NIB TD's along with some other new and used Cox engines, so I agree with the others that we do have other options but those will eventually dry up. So I'm really hoping that you are able to supply engines and parts to the faithful because I'd hate to see it fade away into obscurity. It's really sad when I think about it that a big part of what I remember as a kid, Cox engines and control line models, is not a big part of the model airplane experience.


I second that!


Mike

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Out of a batch of 3000 TDs at $100 each, how many per day would you have to sell [on average] to make the venture worthwhile?
It sounds difficult to pull off, but I've heard some world wide sales figures for other model products that were amazing.
The TDs could be looked at like money in the bank because they would increase in value the longer they sit.

BMatthews

It's a sad fact but I'm pretty sure that by the time we wear out the existing stock of TeeDees and other Cox engines and spare parts that there won't be any of us left that actually choose to run these small engines. The stocks may be dwindling but the supply of modellers that see value in 1/2A engines is dwindling just as fast or faster.

I'd love to be proven wrong on this count but I tend to think it's today's reality.

In any event basic business economics says that until NOS or low time used TeeDees approach the $100 mark there's no point in producing a batch of engines where the expected market cost will be $100 or more. Being frugal folks just won't pay the premium for the newly made engine, other than a selected few collectors, when they can get the same performance for cheaper.

DeviousDave

Something to understand about 'collectibles' is that there is a optimal period where they are most valuable. Leisure products like model airplane engines see a spike in value when the customers who originally bought them in their youth go looking for them to harken back to younger, brighter days. The problem with this in regards to Cox engines is that most of them were first bought between 20 and 50 years ago. If you add in the age of the buyer when he first bought his engine, the buyer is now as old as 70, but more likely between 40 and 55. These people have disposable income, which is partially responsible for the high cost of the motors on the collector market.

The people these engines are important to are going to start dying off in the next 5-10 years. Watch for prices to fall accordingly. I'd like to see a new production TD as much as the next guy, but I don't think it's a good business decision. Anyone who wants a TD today can buy one, and prices are reasonable. 1/2A engines have always been undervalued in price and are only now starting to reach parity with other engines that never had a price point problem with the target audience. At the end of the day, we are talking about producing an unmuffled, relatively underpowered engine with a hinkey needle valve design and marginal fuel draw. People buy them to collect more than they do to fly. People that fly buy Norvels or other more modern engines.

If it were my retirement money, I'd let the collectors keep shuffling the existing TD .049 stocks around-it's not a good bet.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

I hate to admit it, but yep..making a big batch of TDs doesn't sound like a good idea.

I had lots of fun with them, but wouldn't afford myself one for $100.

It is still pretty amazing that a relatively small batch could be offered for $100 each.

Silvaire

My Feedback: (50)

It is a pleasure and comfort to know that the biggest pile of new/old Cox parts is in the hands of someone with a great attitude and the best of intentions!

With any NOS parts stash though, it is the management of the inventory that is the big puzzle for its owner. There is no question that as long as there are old engines out there, there will be people who will need parts for them. Quite often, NOS parts are worth more than complete products.

Cox engines are a small percentage of all vintage/collectable model airplane engines. There is a considerable history of model airplane engine collecting over many years that might be worth observing. Over the years there have been numerous replica model engines that have been built and sold, and there are several individuals in the reproduction parts business. There is documented history of some collectable model engines rising to considerable value, then peaking and descending, while at the same time other model engines languished and later developed a serious collectable following. This is a typical pattern for all collectables. It is always difficult to make predictions, especially about the future!

What value patterns Cox engines will follow will be an unknown until it's history. Evaluating the demographics of original Cox engine owners is certainly a valid consideration, but is is only one factor of many. I have heard that Cox made approximately 65 million engines in total. Supplying such an existing base with NOS and reproduction parts alone may be more than enough to manage without trying to produce a new engine for which there may or may not actually be a demand. If a demand for new Cox engines ever does occur though, Xenalook will certainly be in a position to take advantage of it. Time will tell.

flyinrog

My Feedback: (1)

I wish you all the luck in the world, but I would think the best way to sell engines is much like cox did is to make a plane to put it on...70 plus years ago Cushman was an engine manufacturer, back when a 4 hp engine weighed 400 pounds and you brought the tool to it to hook up...making small lighter engines they needed an avenue to move them so they started building scooters, it caught on...after the big war, Lambretta which was a pipe manufacturer needed something else to do so they bent the pipe into scooter frames, cox needs a plane or car or something to attract it to the engine the same way.....a lazer cut kit of something as simple as an LS150 airplane,,that is a littlest stick blown up 150% 2 channel and then arf'd couldnt cost too much to do, well I wouldnt think, but havent researched it,, but a lazer cut kit is only like $7 ea.....just a thought...Rog

ChopperMike

I would have to agree with that. I have to believe that a $100 new 2010 vintage TD would not be worth near as much to a collector as a 90's vintage or older new TD with box, wrenches, instructions, stickers and catalog. From a running standpoint, until the good used or NIB TD's and parts are used up no one would pay $100 for one. And I hadn't thought of the fact as Dave mentioned that it isn't a given that they will continue to increase in value. As the guys who are old enough to remember running the engines as kids pass on there may not be anyone interested in owning one or at least the number of people interested will be a lot less.

A few months ago the owner of the local hobby shop showed me a NIB (Plastic jewel case which dates it to the late 70's) TD .010 he has. He asked me what I thought it was worth and I told him around $150-$200 based on what I see on eBay. He told me he was going to sell it when it got to $1500. Chances are that may never happen unless the demand does stay up for engines like that.


Mike

Cox International

My Feedback: (10)

Thanks everyone for you posts. You have essentially answered you own questions.

Every week we get a "why don't you make an 010?, "Why don't you make an 020?", etc, etc.

It costs at least $50 to make a decent engine in a 2,000 - 3,000 batch. The only reason one can buy some engines for $50 is because they are mass-produced in China in enormous quantities.

They days of making an engine for 10 bucks are over. Don't forget that average US machinist now makes $25/hr and not $2.50

Bernie

Remby

My Feedback: (3)

One additional point on older stock engines.

You can get a jewel, or a bad condition "new" engine. If not kept in the right conditions, internal rust can effect the parts, greatly reducing it's value and use. The older Cox boxes and shipping oils were good short term shipping, but were never intended to protect the engine from the enviroments attack over years of storage.

I have found a number I have purchased to have internal rust inside the cylinder, along with other areas. This could be covered by a good after run oil app, and storage in plastic baggies.

Not a normal issue with newer parts, just with motors and parts that may have been stored without care and attention to conditions.

[2 cents]

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Bernie, it seems to me that if I had a supply of good quality P/L sets, carb bodies, NVAs, venturis and glow heads, I could keep some TDs going forever. My problem has always been with mediocre Cox replacement P/L sets not having as much pop as the original...so I gave up after a few tries. To me, the P/L set is the key ingredient, or else I've got no use, or no way TO use the other TD parts.

flyinrog

My Feedback: (1)

Well, from a marketing standpoint, what are you asked for the most?...if an .049 or any other size is asked for the most and any engine costs $50/pc to make , then based on theebay wouldnt it be better to make the .020 than the .049?...Rog

Cox International

My Feedback: (10)

049 requests outnumber 020 ones at least 10 to one.

Bernie

Silvaire

My Feedback: (50)

Yep, if you don't have or can't get a good P/L set, all you have is (at most) a pretty engine to look at.

Unfortunately, it is the most tolarance critical part of a non-ringed engine.

Perhaps someone might be able to come up with a practical way to recondition a worn cylinder and plate the piston (not sure with what though) to make it servicable - and maybe even better than original.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Silvaire.....Yep, that's the heart of the matter. Is there a way to squeeze the cylinder from about the top of the exhaust port to the very top to gain a hair amount of taper?
Imagine having a press, where you could take a replacement cylinder and give it a little extra pop?

...or marketing a DIY kit with the dies and a honing/lapping tool?
KK sold a lapping tool, but no way to shrink the cylinder.

Cox International

My Feedback: (10)

Just to let everyone know that we will be making a TD 049 cylinder to Cox OEM specs.

Should have samples in January.

Bernie

OzMo

My Feedback: (3)

HO HO HO MERRY CHRISTMAS! that is cool thanks!

BMatthews

Now that's good news for many of us. And it's a great way to test the waters without mortgaging your soul.

SnApRoLl-

Hi Bernie,
Thanks for the updates.
By the way I just got my 3 blade pusher prop, red spinner and babe bee overhaul kit in this past Monday.
Also I thought it was very very cool of you guys to throw in a 2 blade prop as an extra! You guys are TOP SHELF CLASS A all the way!!!!
You can bet that I'll be buying more from you guys in the future and I would also like to wish you guys all the success in the world!!



Shawn

rrragmanliam

My Feedback: (1)

I agree. I found 3 TD P\L sets NIP at a swap meet and snapped them up. I tried one set on one my old TD engins and the performance really wasn't much better than my " worn out cylinder". I fiddeled around with shims, fuel, different case, crank, nva, carb body etc. and just couldn't get it to run like a good TD. Then I tried a second NIP P\L set with the same results.

Darren