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Thread: 1/2 A Fuel


  1. #76
    rcguy59's Avatar
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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    Makes your jet seem cheap, huh?
    Jet Central Superbee & Rabbit
    18MZ FASSTest for everything I fly

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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    Hi all,

    After read this thread, I cleaned my old cox 049 production series for a brief test . It came with white nylon U backplate. its a non SPI , dual slit port without booster slot.

    I mounted a balanced winsor 6X3 prop on it ( I always balanced my prop ) and start to test it on 15% nitro VS 0% nitro homebrew fuel.

    first test was Sig 15% nitro fuel which well kept in my cool dark store room for years. It starts easily, with 2-1/2 turns needle to peak it up, I tech it and I got 12000 rpm and run smoothly.

    second test was homebrew fuel , contain 80% methanol from one of my friend who supply quality industrial chemical , he gave me one gallon for free. the rest of 20% I mixed with silkolene Pro KR-2 go-cart oil, which contain half ester syn. and half castor. I can run it smoothly too, but peak it with needle on less than 2 turns. I was so surprised to see that this little engine screamed at constant 13000 rpm!

    Maybe its because of my Sig fuel already turn bad after stored for years, but spinning at 13000 rpm with 0% nitro and 6X3 prop seems perfect for me, ( I fly sport plane most of the time) , maybe the Pro KR-2 oil give me higher efficiency, I don't know, but it really works perfectly.

    I plan to use it in one of my cox engine, and keep recording its run time and see how long the piston/ cylinder can last.

    still don't know if i need to throw away my old sig fuel, ( but it starts and runs well in my cox engines too, just a little bit lower rpm) , or maybe just because of 0% nitro fuel + Pro KR2 oil can load larger 6X3 prop better than Sig oil? i don't know .


    regards,
    EW






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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel


    ORIGINAL: rcguy59

    Makes your jet seem cheap, huh?
    well the fuel is cheaper for jets then model boats. Boat fuel for me is like $40 dollars a gallon and we use 10 gallons on a weekend and for the jet is definitely cheaper until you have a failure in the air and crash then its expensive ;-)
    Feibao Velox-Wren70*Carf Kangaroo-Jetcat P-70*CMP BAE Hawk-Jetcat P-20SE * IMPBA NATIONAL CHAMPION

  4. #79
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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    tru168.....12,000 with a 6x3 seems kind of low....but I've got worn out TDs that will turn only 12,000 with 15% fuel, The same fuel that I have seen make other engines scream. So, check your 15% fuel in a different engine that you already know very well how fast it should run.
    I am surprised to hear that 0% ran so well compared with your 15% fuel, that is pretty funny.
    WHO GUNNA FEED MAW KEEEIDS..???

  5. #80
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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    I never liked the way any stock Cox .049 I ever owned ran on less than 15%. The fact that tru's engine ran better on 0% makes me pretty suspicious of the other fuel. Goes against common sense otherwise.
    Sorry I'm late dear, I had to help my uncle Jack off his horse.

    Revver Bro #231

  6. #81
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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel


    ORIGINAL: airwolf81


    ORIGINAL: rcguy59

    Makes your jet seem cheap, huh?
    well the fuel is cheaper for jets then model boats. Boat fuel for me is like $40 dollars a gallon and we use 10 gallons on a weekend and for the jet is definitely cheaper until you have a failure in the air and crash then its expensive ;-)
    I'll bet I could take the same hydro-engine, machine a head for it that would run well on low nitro, equip it with a low nitro pipe and the boat would run at least 90% as fast as it did before on fuel you can mix for less than $6/gallon.
    WHO GUNNA FEED MAW KEEEIDS..???

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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    we have tried it before and it worked well but loss just a bit of power. we machine out heads our of brass set the bowl volume and squish velocity, intake and exhaust timing and put a 15cc Macs 1394 with a 1 inch lead and they will produce alot of power heres a video of Joe and I testing my Twin Hydro.. we have CMB 1.01RS cube motors on our boats..

    http://youtu.be/LlIoXy2AhwA
    Feibao Velox-Wren70*Carf Kangaroo-Jetcat P-70*CMP BAE Hawk-Jetcat P-20SE * IMPBA NATIONAL CHAMPION

  8. #83
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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    MJD: I never liked the way any stock Cox .049 I ever owned ran on less than 15%. The fact that tru's engine ran better on 0% makes me pretty suspicious of the other fuel. Goes against common sense otherwise.
    Oh, I gathered that perhaps the nitro content degraded over time, and the FAI version fuel was about what was expected. If one didn't need gobs of power, perhaps on a large .020 RC plane or smaller .049 sport plane, the .049 at 12,000 RPM on a slightly larger prop (say 6x3) was more than adequate. I needed a tad more RPM over that, so 25% nitro met that need with the reedies. Schneurle technology didn't come along until later and the then available Tee Dee's and Medallions, although excellent engines, were expensive enough to help me remain content on the reedies.
    George Hostler
    Clovis MADS AMA Club, Vintage R/C Society (VRCS)
    And we know love by this, that He laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 1 John 3:16

  9. #84
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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel


    ORIGINAL: airwolf81

    we have tried it before and it worked well but loss just a bit of power. we machine out heads our of brass set the bowl volume and squish velocity, intake and exhaust timing and put a 15cc Macs 1394 with a 1 inch lead and they will produce alot of power heres a video of Joe and I testing my Twin Hydro.. we have CMB 1.01RS cube motors on our boats..

    http://youtu.be/LlIoXy2AhwA
    So if you got good results with fuel that costs 1/8th of what you are burning now...what's the use..?
    No matter WHAT you guys choose to burn, you will reach limits that you ultimately get tired of. In the meantime you are flushing money down the toilet [with no possible reward] that might become useful someday for you and your family.
    WHO GUNNA FEED MAW KEEEIDS..???

  10. #85
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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    [youtube][/youtube]
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy_JM...G7PvspskjQLq9A
    This is a Cox TD .049 running on either 10 or 12% nitro. The engine itself is a junker well past it's prime made up with what are probably the last Cox pieces I'll ever own.
    WHO GUNNA FEED MAW KEEEIDS..???

  11. #86
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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    combatpigg: Japanese cars and the Mercedes seemed to have already raised the bar during this time, also. Detroit tossed in hardened valve seats and tougher valves to withstand unleaded fuel and higher temps ...but as fas as I know [I'm just a hotrodder] there is no improvement in quality of any of the other moving parts. In fact, some of the earlier forged cranks and rods are more desirable with the engine guys.
    As a hot rodder, you were more intimate with the issues because of practical experience. One thing I did observe with the smaller Japanese engines and the Falcon's in line six is that after 60,000 - 75,000 miles, their cylinders showed significant wear, a good size ridge where the uppermost piston ring travel ended, especially in the 2 inner most cylinders.

    Improving carburetor efficiency and later switching to fuel injection eliminated so much raw fuel washing past the piston rings and diluting the oil in the crankcase. Raising the normal operating temp was also a big step forward after some years where it was a step backwards.
    I don't remember too much about that. I remembered that carburetors required regular overhaul, the needle valves would wear out on the carb bowel float, the carbs would get internally dirty from the fuel and gummed up, the rubber accelerator pump diaphragms would wear out.

    That is fascinating work you were involved with...! What a great career field that is.
    It may seem that way. Aerospace was so down and up that one moment things are well, the next moment they are laying people off. The benefits were good while it lasted.
    George Hostler
    Clovis MADS AMA Club, Vintage R/C Society (VRCS)
    And we know love by this, that He laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 1 John 3:16

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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel


    ORIGINAL: combatpigg


    ORIGINAL: airwolf81

    we have tried it before and it worked well but loss just a bit of power. we machine out heads our of brass set the bowl volume and squish velocity, intake and exhaust timing and put a 15cc Macs 1394 with a 1 inch lead and they will produce alot of power heres a video of Joe and I testing my Twin Hydro.. we have CMB 1.01RS cube motors on our boats..

    http://youtu.be/LlIoXy2AhwA
    So if you got good results with fuel that costs 1/8th of what you are burning now...what's the use..?
    No matter WHAT you guys choose to burn, you will reach limits that you ultimately get tired of. In the meantime you are flushing money down the toilet [with no possible reward] that might become useful someday for you and your family.

    It worked well but not the best.. we only run when we compete in national events thats maybe 4 times a year. The level of competition is great so we need all the power we can get out of our setup.. so i only run my boats only when im going to heat race thats it..
    Feibao Velox-Wren70*Carf Kangaroo-Jetcat P-70*CMP BAE Hawk-Jetcat P-20SE * IMPBA NATIONAL CHAMPION

  13. #88
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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    ORIGINAL: GallopingGhostler
    As a hot rodder, you were more intimate with the issues because of practical experience. One thing I did observe with the smaller Japanese engines and the Falcon's in line six is that after 60,000 - 75,000 miles, their cylinders showed significant wear, a good size ridge where the uppermost piston ring travel ended, especially in the 2 inner most cylinders.
    Around 1972 Datsun and Toyota dealerships still had stacks of junk cylinder heads made out of recycled beer cans that were getting changed out with better parts.
    The Ford 6 had mixture distribution trouble due to poor design. If the air / fuel charge doesn't burn completely, then it washes away protective oil and leads to early parts failure. They created a very complex "thermactor" system to alleviate the problem and it worked very well until it broke down. Once it broke down it became such a difficult and expensive system to replace that it wasn't feasible to work on.
    WHO GUNNA FEED MAW KEEEIDS..???

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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    ORIGINAL: airwolf81


    ORIGINAL: combatpigg


    ORIGINAL: airwolf81

    we have tried it before and it worked well but loss just a bit of power. we machine out heads our of brass set the bowl volume and squish velocity, intake and exhaust timing and put a 15cc Macs 1394 with a 1 inch lead and they will produce alot of power heres a video of Joe and I testing my Twin Hydro.. we have CMB 1.01RS cube motors on our boats..

    http://youtu.be/LlIoXy2AhwA
    So if you got good results with fuel that costs 1/8th of what you are burning now...what's the use..?
    No matter WHAT you guys choose to burn, you will reach limits that you ultimately get tired of. In the meantime you are flushing money down the toilet [with no possible reward] that might become useful someday for you and your family.

    It worked well but not the best.. we only run when we compete in national events thats maybe 4 times a year. The level of competition is great so we need all the power we can get out of our setup.. so i only run my boats only when im going to heat race thats it..
    I'm sure that your wife and children will someday thank you for that.
    If you need to come here to "brag" about the stupid amount of money you spend on racing RC hydroplanes...maybe it's time to take a step back to see what you really are throwing your [hard earned???] money at.
    WHO GUNNA FEED MAW KEEEIDS..???

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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    Hi guys,
    I ran my OS 15FP with my old Sig 15% fuel just now. You guys are right, it shows lost of power slightly. my Sig fuel degraded after years of storage.
    Since I'm happy with my home brew fuel, I will try to continue running it in my cox engines, and I will keep watching the mechanical wear and see if syn + castor Silkolene Pro KR2 can really serve cox engines well.

  16. #91
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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    Good to know! It would be disturbing if some new phenomenon had just reared its head to confound us further..
    Sorry I'm late dear, I had to help my uncle Jack off his horse.

    Revver Bro #231

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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel


    tru168: I ran my OS 15FP with my old Sig 15% fuel just now. You guys are right, it shows lost of power slightly. my Sig fuel degraded after years of storage. Since I'm happy with my home brew fuel, I will try to continue running it in my cox engines, and I will keep watching the mechanical wear and see if syn + castor Silkolene Pro KR2 can really serve cox engines well.
    tru, if nothing else, I guess you have the Sig fuel for breaking in motors and for those planes and engines not requiring a lot of power.
    George Hostler
    Clovis MADS AMA Club, Vintage R/C Society (VRCS)
    And we know love by this, that He laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 1 John 3:16

  18. #93

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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    Using 30% Odonnell heli fuel in my old Norvel. Seems to run well. I hope it survives the 21% synthetic oil. Thanks to Odonnell for posting the oil info.

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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    I've got 2 quart bottles of the stuff to burn, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. So far what I gather from the inputs: 1) Don't run the engines lean; 2) Don't load up the engine to the point it is overheating (i.e., don't run a larger diameter prop than recommended and there is adequate cooling airflow around the engine); 3) Adding a couple percent Castor oil provides additional prophylaxis; 4) Don't use it in in a competition situation with plain bearing engines without Castor (unusually high RPM's, very small diameter props, i.e., non-sport flying).

    The crankshaft, piston pin and crank boss are lubricated from the incoming yet to be burnt air fuel/oil mixture. Running the engine cool and not in lean condition allows the oil to make those places. Others seem to have success with it on plain bearing, so I am willing to gamble. Anyway, as in any situation, YMMV.
    George Hostler
    Clovis MADS AMA Club, Vintage R/C Society (VRCS)
    And we know love by this, that He laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 1 John 3:16

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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    hi GallopingGhostler ,

    I'm using the Sig fuel as test run or break in fuel now. Just broken-in a babe bee with new piston/ cylinder. Since I'm a sport RC flyer, I don't mind using it in my 1/2A planes with limited power.


    cheers,
    tru168



  21. #96
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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    tru, I was referring to the O'Donnell 30% nitro heli fuel that I recently purchased. In RCGroups, someone had posted that one could add Klotz BeNOL Racing Castor Oil, available at some motorcycle and automotive parts departments. I checked here locally, and it appears to be a special order item. One quart of that would be good to add to provide additional protection to plain bearing legacy steel liner engines. With additional Castor, might provide a cost effective alternative to other fuels.

    If I used the non-Castor over a long period may net quicker wear on the older engines, but for now, for a shorter time period, can't imagine I'd do that much damage.
    George Hostler
    Clovis MADS AMA Club, Vintage R/C Society (VRCS)
    And we know love by this, that He laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 1 John 3:16

  22. #97
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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    combatpigg The Ford 6 had mixture distribution trouble due to poor design. If the air / fuel charge doesn't burn completely, then it washes away protective oil and leads to early parts failure. They created a very complex ''thermactor'' system to alleviate the problem and it worked very well until it broke down. Once it broke down it became such a difficult and expensive system to replace that it wasn't feasible to work on.
    Wasn't the Thermactor system an air injection reaction system of about 1970's vintage, with a fan belt driven air pump which put fresh air at each exhaust port to burn unburnt fuel after it left the combustion chamber? There was an "anti-gulp valve" triggered by vacuum pressure, which cut off the air during deceleration to prevent backfire? My 1970 Mazda 1800 had such a system. The system AFAIK did not affect mixture settings, or did it?

    I'd think that any mixture problems needed to be dealt with prior to leaving the exhaust valve. It wasn't until the advent of feedback control systems, a computer controlled carburetor that the problem of stoichiometric efficiency was achieved, as carburetors were averaging devices. Chrysler Corporation was one of the first to successfully achieve EPA compliance with a computer in the early 1980's. A special computer controlled valve replaced the carburetor's power valve.

    I'm glad our model planes were not mandated for air injection into the exhaust stream by EPA, to say nonetheless.
    George Hostler
    Clovis MADS AMA Club, Vintage R/C Society (VRCS)
    And we know love by this, that He laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 1 John 3:16

  23. #98
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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    ORIGINAL: tru168: I'm using the Sig fuel as test run or break in fuel now. Just broken-in a babe bee with new piston/ cylinder. Since I'm a sport RC flyer, I don't mind using it in my 1/2A planes with limited power.
    tru, today toward the end of daylight, I put my Fuji .099S-II R/C engine in my test fixture. Using a new Swanson Associates Fireball Red Standard Plug and Tornado nylon 7x4 prop, the O'Donnell 30% Heli fuel ran well. The image is the engine in my test stand, the glop on the saw horse fixture is glow fuel.



    This Fuji engine is unique in that it is a true ABC engine, albeit a baffle piston one. Since I don't have a tach, can't give performance figures, but the engine ran strong.
    George Hostler
    Clovis MADS AMA Club, Vintage R/C Society (VRCS)
    And we know love by this, that He laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 1 John 3:16

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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    hi GallopingGhostler ,

    Thanks for sharing. That"s a beautiful engine you have. Good 1/2A engines are hard to find now. I just purchased Morgan cool power 30% heli fuel, I'm searching for castor oil now and will add a little castor into it and see if it can be good 1/2A fuel.


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    RE: 1/2 A Fuel

    if you have a cyclegear store nearby they stock benol oil and maxima 927 oil..both are castor oils, they also stock klotz, blendzall and torco oil products


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