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  1. #1

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    Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    I'm sorry this post is completely off-topic, but I have followed this forum for so long it feels that I 'know' most of you and I value your input.

    A while back I bought a new wing for one of my planes from a U.S. based seller at Ebay. I paid for the item and the shipping cost and he sent the wing (probably via US Mail) and mailed the tracking number. So far all good.

    Before the package was delivered to me, the transport company (my national mail company, thus not the same company as originally received the package from the seller) misplaced the package and - when they found it - they made mistake number two and returned it to the sender instead of delivering it to me.

    My national mail company admit they have made serious mistakes, but due to international agreements between mail companies any refunds for the shipping cost must be claimed from the original shipping company.

    The seller says he can send the wing again, but I have to pay the shipment cost once again. I have told him he can reclaim the original shipping cost from his transporter, but he says that since the mistake was made in my country I'm the one who has to claim money from my national mail company.

    Because of the delay when the post company searched for the package, in combination with two transports across the Atlantic, more than 45 days passed before the package was returned to the sender and we started to discuss the cost of resending the wing. That means the timelimit for opening an issue at Ebay or Paypal is overdue, and I will not get any help from them at all (except for a long letter with MANY words that said absolutely nothing except telling me that I'm on my own and citing a lot of company policies).

    The position the seller has taken in this issue have made me lost all trust in him and I have therefor asked for a full refund of my money. He has responded that he might refund the wing but not the shipping, which he continues to tell me I have to reclaim from my national mailcompany because they were the one who made the mistakes.

    The total sum for the wing and the shipping isn't so large is will keep my children from eating if it's lost, but I tries to keep to a rather low hobby budget so this sum equalls to three months of hobby spendings for me.



    Please, tell me if I am thinking wrong here. I know business culture is a lot different in different parts of the world, so help me understand this issue so it can be settled in a way that is good for all parties. Especially I would like to know your opinion concerning:

    1. Clearly the postal company made mistakes, but who would you say is responsible for claiming a refund for the original shipping?

    2. I have told the seller I lost trust in him and don't want him to resend the wing. Instead I want him to refund all of the money I've paid him. Would you say that's too drastic from me?

    3. What if he decides to neither resend the wing, nor refund any money at all? What are my options then?

    4. What are your general thoughts in this issue?


    As I said in the first line, I value all and any input you may give me.

    regards

    /Stefan

    P.S. If a moderator decides to move this thread, so please just notify me so I can keep follow it.


  2. #2
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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    It sounds like he will give your money back less shipping? It sounds reasonable, take what you can get. Going after the shipping company is not going to get very far.
    I say reasonable since the seller spent the shipping money once to get you the wing, it isn't his fault it got messed up and shouldn't have to refund the money. Also in the US people don't usually do much without making a few $ unless they are your friend, and even then you can't be too sure. The seller most likely doesn't want to mess around going after the shipping company for the refund.
    A guy who used to live on this site and now is rarely here due to the "upgrade".
    Most likely fading away till the My Forums is fixed. Too bad.

  3. #3
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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    hi SBS pilot

    it is unfortunate that this has happened to you, and unfortunately, you are not the first or be the last. It seems that we all in this great hobby have to deal with the chance that our parcel/s could simply dissappear or get misplaced and even get damaged during transit. I am sure all of us on this forum can tell stories about similar things that has happened to them and I wish there was a guarantee that our goods will get delivered on time, intact and with efficiency and not be a 'gamble' to purchase goods from overseas. But to be honest, unfortunately I can't see you getting your wing anytime soon unless you part with some more $$.

    Regards
    Mick 
    suck, squeeze, bang, blow. Thermodynamics, love it.

  4. #4
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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    Years and years ago, BI (Before Internet, etc.) I exchanged several actual letters with a person in England. He expressed interest in a K&B Greenhead I had and I agreed to swap it for some diesel that he had. I packed my engine up and sent it off as agreed. I never heard from him again - even after many tries. The kicker was that the reason I had some faith in this individual was because I had seen, and liked, some design articles that he had published in the British magazine that I subscribed to back then. I debated sending a letter of complaint to that magazine's publisher but talked myself out of it since it was a he-said-she-said situation and what could they do anyway.

    The point of my rant is that sometimes you just have to suck it up, be the better person, ya da ya da - but NEVER forget ! (pant, pant, wheeze)
    How do YOU spell relief?

  5. #5

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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    Many sellers will not even send overseas for reasons like this. I think he fulfilled his responsibility when he mailed it, and he's doing the right thing by agreeing to send it to you again.

    The mail service in your country admitted a mistake and should not hide behind some international agreement that you and the seller cannot possibly know about. I think it's expecting too much of the seller to ask him to navigate that to get his money back. I think you should demand that your postal service make this right.

    I also think it's really good of you to ask here instead of just going into a bitter dispute with the seller. I hope all goes well in the end.

    Jim

  6. #6
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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    had the same thing happen with a $40 item +$20 shipping from the states....i waited and waited until the seller contacted me and said the item was returned to him and i would have to pay shipping again if i wanted it. i never checked but would like to believe that he actually shipped it the first time and wasn't just scamming me out of a measly $20.....and when i finally got the package it kinda made sense that it was a postal screw up, my address was in some of the sloppiest writing i have ever seen...i was surprised the post office on his end even accepted it.

    on the other hand some places are a joy to deal with. once had a package from digikey go missing and being shipped usps there was no way to track it. i would normally get their packages within 10 days so after 20 i contacted them and they said "sorry for the inconvenience, we'll ship out a duplicate order ASAP"...about a month after i got the duplicate order a customs slip for the original shows up in the mail. contacted digikey and they said to just have it returned on their bill.
    \"I\'ll take the money- and you can have the rope\"

  7. #7

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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    Thank you all for your answers and replies.

    I think this is most interesting because it shows a distinct difference in how I am used to behave (and expect my business partners to behave).

    If I was selling anything and chose to deliver it by use of a parcel service, transport company or anything such, I would consider them as a subcontractor and thus be liable for any damage they may cause to my customer. And if my subcontractor contracts anyone, my subcontractor (and I) is liable for any damage the sub-subcontractor may cause. Of course I would demand that my subcontractor covers any damage he causes, as well as I would cover any damage to my customer.

    Now you all seems to agree that I should forget about the shipping cost and be happy if I get back at least the money for the wing. Why is that? Is it the normal way to do business in US, or is US Mail too tiresome to claim a refund from? Please elaborate the answer as I really like to learn so I could avoid problems in the future.

    /Stefan


    (I reread this post and sees that it sound a little sarcastic, or maybe tantalizing. That is not the intention, I am just open minded and want to learn, but I can't express myself better in English.)

  8. #8
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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    is US Mail too tiresome to claim a refund from?
    You hit it on the head. Plus the root cause of your problem happened in your country. Imagine trying to fish through two countries policies for a few dollars. If it was a very large sum of money it might be worth it but not for anything under $100. Especially considering the seller has nothing to gain for his trouble.
    A guy who used to live on this site and now is rarely here due to the "upgrade".
    Most likely fading away till the My Forums is fixed. Too bad.

  9. #9

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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    ORIGINAL: vicman

    It sounds like he will give your money back less shipping? It sounds reasonable, take what you can get. ..............
    I say reasonable since the seller spent the shipping money once to get you the wing, it isn't his fault it got messed up and shouldn't have to refund the money.
    I tend to agree. The seller acted in good faith and met his obligation to send you the wing. Thru no fault of his or yours, the mistake is not really his responsibility nor should he be expected to take actions beyond what he has already done. Refunding your money less shipping charges seems fair, since he already has time invested in packing and traveling to the postal service to mail the package.
    the "other" andrew
    I'm not older than dirt, but I can remember when it was patent pending

  10. #10

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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?


    ORIGINAL: Andrew

    ORIGINAL: vicman

    It sounds like he will give your money back less shipping? It sounds reasonable, take what you can get. ..............
    I say reasonable since the seller spent the shipping money once to get you the wing, it isn't his fault it got messed up and shouldn't have to refund the money.
    I tend to agree. The seller acted in good faith and met his obligation to send you the wing. Thru no fault of his or yours, the mistake is not really his responsibility nor should he be expected to take actions beyond what he has already done. Refunding your money less shipping charges seems fair, since he already has time invested in packing and traveling to the postal service to mail the package.


    ORIGINAL: vicman
    ORIGINAL: SBS_Pilot
    is US Mail too tiresome to claim a refund from?
    You hit it on the head. Plus the root cause of your problem happened in your country. Imagine trying to fish through two countries policies for a few dollars. If it was a very large sum of money it might be worth it but not for anything under $100. Especially considering the seller has nothing to gain for his trouble
    Wow, this is getting more and more interesting and very, very educating.

    Just hypothetically, if the transportation mistake had taken place in U.S. or during a reload in, let's say Ireland (approximately half way between me and the seller), would that change any moral or legal obligation for the seller?



    Again, I'm not trying to prove any point here, I'm just trying to learn something that's outside my normal conception/comprehension/apprehension. (Please ignore the irrelevant words. Google Translate gave several suggestions...)

    Anyway, I really appreciate that you've taken your time and explain this to me. You have already made me cool down in my disappointment about being scre**d about the shipment cost. Thanks a lot to all of you.

    /Stefan

  11. #11
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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    Traditionally in business shipments we identify the point where ownership takes place and who is responsible for costs associated. The acronym is FOB (freight on board). Sometimes a customer will specify FOB destination meaning they want the supplier to cover shipping responsibility all the way to its destination where the customer takes ownership. Other times we do FOB supplier's dock where the customer takes ownership when the product is loaded or picked up. This usually happens when the customer has an agreement or preferred shipping agent.

    Working with various postal services isn't quite that simple even in country. Adding foreign entities clouds the issue even more.

    Personally I don't buy or ship model related items from out of country, it's not worth the hassle that can happen.
    A guy who used to live on this site and now is rarely here due to the "upgrade".
    Most likely fading away till the My Forums is fixed. Too bad.

  12. #12
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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?


    ORIGINAL: vicman

    Personally I don't buy or ship model related items from out of country, it's not worth the hassle that can happen.
    in today's world it's really no different than shipping something across the states. just a few backwards third world places where it isn't a good idea...well that and italy.
    \"I\'ll take the money- and you can have the rope\"

  13. #13
    vicman's Avatar
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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    Don't get me started on third world or backworld countries Zag
    A guy who used to live on this site and now is rarely here due to the "upgrade".
    Most likely fading away till the My Forums is fixed. Too bad.

  14. #14

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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    A lot of hobby stuff is sold on ebay by people who are just getting rid of things they haven't used, or they bought the estate of a modeler. It has given us access to a tremendous variety of OOP planes, engines, etc. that we could never have gotten otherwise.

    Most of us do not have shipping departments, accountants etc. We have to take photos, write descriptions, post them, research postal rates, deal with questions, package and label the items, drive to the post office, stand in line, and hope that it is finally done. If you count your time...and why wouldn't you?...then even if you get some really good prices your hourly rate is not much. If you then have to deal with postal agreements between countries that lost your item, it simply is not worth it.

    My conclusion from all this is that I will never sell out of country. I probably wouldn't buy from a seller in another country either.

    Jim

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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?


    ORIGINAL: buzzard bait

    Many sellers will not even send overseas for reasons like this. I think he fulfilled his responsibility when he mailed it, and he's doing the right thing by agreeing to send it to you again.

    The mail service in your country admitted a mistake and should not hide behind some international agreement that you and the seller cannot possibly know about. I think it's expecting too much of the seller to ask him to navigate that to get his money back. I think you should demand that your postal service make this right.

    I also think it's really good of you to ask here instead of just going into a bitter dispute with the seller. I hope all goes well in the end.

    Jim

    What do you do when the seller (cottage industry business) is in another country and you get a tracking number from his postal service but the package never shows up? I'm having a similar issue, ordered a high performance diesel from Spain a month ago and have nothing to show for it but a tracking number that terminates when the package left Spain 3 weeks ago. All the seller is doing is telling me to check with the USPS. The way I look at it, my responsibility was to pay him for his goods, his responsibility is to get it to me. I don't dictate how he does that so if he chooses a less direct route than Fedex or BBT (Big Brown Truck) that's on him if I have any say.

  16. #16
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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    Dave, you know that you can call BBT or FE and arrange for a pick-up tag. FOB Dock in this case.
    What you are describing is FOB destination except you paid the supplier to handle the shipping the way they feel is best. Ya might wait a while.

    However I know about your lust for grey market items.
    A guy who used to live on this site and now is rarely here due to the "upgrade".
    Most likely fading away till the My Forums is fixed. Too bad.

  17. #17

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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    WOW....theres 10 minutes of my life I'll never get back. Cant believe some of the things people CRY about.....

  18. #18

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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    ORIGINAL: SBS_Pilot




    Please, tell me if I am thinking wrong here. I know business culture is a lot different in different parts of the world, so help me understand this issue so it can be settled in a way that is good for all parties. Especially I would like to know your opinion concerning:

    1. Clearly the postal company made mistakes, but who would you say is responsible for claiming a refund for the original shipping?

    2. I have told the seller I lost trust in him and don't want him to resend the wing. Instead I want him to refund all of the money I've paid him. Would you say that's too drastic from me?

    3. What if he decides to neither resend the wing, nor refund any money at all? What are my options then?

    4. What are your general thoughts in this issue?


    As I said in the first line, I value all and any input you may give me.

    regards

    /Stefan

    P.S. If a moderator decides to move this thread, so please just notify me so I can keep follow it.

    #1. When I sell on EBay, I make it very clear that I am NOT responsible for "other countries mail system". Some aren't as good as the USA. So, your mail system messed up, you get the money from them.
    #2. Yes, too drastic! After all, he was willing to ship the wing back to you at your shipping cost. The USA mail system got it to Sweden. Sweden's mail system mess up.
    #3 He has offered to refund for the wing or send it. That is 100% reliability to me. Again! NOT his fault that YOUR mail system screwed up!
    #4. You are the reason that a LOT of guys won't sell International from the USA. Belly up to the bar, take the shipping hit, and if you don't want the wing, take his refund of the wing minus shipping. He did his job by getting it to Sweden the first time! Again, YOUR Country screwed up!!

    I am also sure that you wanted the cheapest shipping, due to not wanting to spend the extra to have it shipped by a commercial carrier, such as UPS, FedEX, DHL, and probably even on your own airline counter to counter.
    JPO Yearly Member. Retired ATP B-727, HS-125, IA-JET

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  19. #19

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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?


    ORIGINAL: RCFlyerDan
    #1. When I sell on EBay, I make it very clear that I am NOT responsible for ''other countries mail system''. Some aren't as good as the USA. So, your mail system messed up, you get the money from them.
    #2. Yes, too drastic! After all, he was willing to ship the wing back to you at your shipping cost. The USA mail system got it to Sweden. Sweden's mail system mess up.
    #3 He has offered to refund for the wing or send it. That is 100% reliability to me. Again! NOT his fault that YOUR mail system screwed up!
    #4. You are the reason that a LOT of guys won't sell International from the USA. Belly up to the bar, take the shipping hit, and if you don't want the wing, take his refund of the wing minus shipping. He did his job by getting it to Sweden the first time! Again, YOUR Country screwed up!!

    I am also sure that you wanted the cheapest shipping, due to not wanting to spend the extra to have it shipped by a commercial carrier, such as UPS, FedEX, DHL, and probably even on your own airline counter to counter.
    I value your opinions, but I get the feeling you wrote them down before thinking them through all the way...

    #1. No, the seller had NO disclaimer in the Ebay ad. And it is mot MY mail system, it is US Mail who chose to use them, it is US Mail who has accepted the delivery WITH a tracking number and sign-on-receipt, and I would say it is therefor US Mail who is responsible for refunding the seller when their service wasn't fulfilled. How they choose to charge the Swedish Post System really is out of my hands.

    #3. No, it is not the sellers fault the package never arrived to me, but I still feel the seller should at least try to reclaim the shipping cost from US Mail. But, as others already have told me, that doesn't seems to be the practice in the United States. Whether it's because of lazyness, lack of customer support, stubborness from US Mail, or just because he already got paid doesn't even matter anymore - the result is just the same: I do not receive what I have paid for.

    #4. I'm not familiar with the expression "belly up the bar", but I can't see anything new in your answer to this point.


    No, I didn't choose cheapest shipping - I chose the only shipping the seller offered, so the shipping method was entirely his choice.

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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?


    ORIGINAL: SBS_Pilot



    #4. I'm not familiar with the expression ''belly up the bar'', but I can't see anything new in your answer to this point.


    No, I didn't choose cheapest shipping - I chose the only shipping the seller offered, so the shipping method was entirely his choice.
    Belly up to the Bar= Grow up and pay the bill! And as the Buyer, YOU always have the right to ask the seller to ship it a different method, but YOU have to be willing to pay for it.
    JPO Yearly Member. Retired ATP B-727, HS-125, IA-JET

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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?


    ORIGINAL: SBS_Pilot


    ORIGINAL: RCFlyerDan
    #1. When I sell on EBay, I make it very clear that I am NOT responsible for ''other countries mail system''. Some aren't as good as the USA. So, your mail system messed up, you get the money from them.
    #2. Yes, too drastic! After all, he was willing to ship the wing back to you at your shipping cost. The USA mail system got it to Sweden. Sweden's mail system mess up.
    #3 He has offered to refund for the wing or send it. That is 100% reliability to me. Again! NOT his fault that YOUR mail system screwed up!
    #4. You are the reason that a LOT of guys won't sell International from the USA. Belly up to the bar, take the shipping hit, and if you don't want the wing, take his refund of the wing minus shipping. He did his job by getting it to Sweden the first time! Again, YOUR Country screwed up!!

    I am also sure that you wanted the cheapest shipping, due to not wanting to spend the extra to have it shipped by a commercial carrier, such as UPS, FedEX, DHL, and probably even on your own airline counter to counter.
    I value your opinions, but I get the feeling you wrote them down before thinking them through all the way...

    .
    My thoughts are very clear here, been there done that, and have been shipping Internationally on EBay for over 10 years now, with more then 500 positive feedback, under the same screen name as on here.
    JPO Yearly Member. Retired ATP B-727, HS-125, IA-JET

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  22. #22

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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    ORIGINAL: SBS_Pilot


    ORIGINAL: RCFlyerDan
    #1. When I sell on EBay, I make it very clear that I am NOT responsible for ''other countries mail system''. Some aren't as good as the USA. So, your mail system messed up, you get the money from them.
    #2. Yes, too drastic! After all, he was willing to ship the wing back to you at your shipping cost. The USA mail system got it to Sweden. Sweden's mail system mess up.
    #3 He has offered to refund for the wing or send it. That is 100% reliability to me. Again! NOT his fault that YOUR mail system screwed up!
    #4. You are the reason that a LOT of guys won't sell International from the USA. Belly up to the bar, take the shipping hit, and if you don't want the wing, take his refund of the wing minus shipping. He did his job by getting it to Sweden the first time! Again, YOUR Country screwed up!!

    I am also sure that you wanted the cheapest shipping, due to not wanting to spend the extra to have it shipped by a commercial carrier, such as UPS, FedEX, DHL, and probably even on your own airline counter to counter.
    And it is mot MY mail system, it is US Mail who chose to use them, it is US Mail who has accepted the delivery WITH a tracking number and sign-on-receipt, and I would say it is therefor US Mail who is responsible for refunding the seller when their service wasn't fulfilled. How they choose to charge the Swedish Post System really is out of my hands.

    #3. No, it is not the sellers fault the package never arrived to me, but I still feel the seller should at least try to reclaim the shipping cost from US Mail
    It is YOUR Governments' mail system and the system in which you live, so therefore it is your system. The package was shipped one government to another government's mail system. The USA mail system did get it to your mail system, so they DID provide the service. And, yes, it is not common practice to go back to the Post Office to ask for a refund. After all, they did do their job getting it to your country's government mail system. The Buyer always pays shipping, even from a retail store here in the USA. I know you will say, "Some ads advertise Free shipping"; Well, the buyer is still agreeing to the final price of the item, and the seller always figures it into the total price of the sale for what he needs for the item.

    I also see that we are in the 1/2A stuff, so I am sure the wing wasn't expensive or the shipping. What do you think the seller is making on this wing for all of his efforts to fill out the extra forms? His time going to the P.O. to ship it twice? IF it had sold here in the States, the seller wouldn't even have this headache, and I am almost certain, even without knowing the seller, he will never sell outside the USA again.
    JPO Yearly Member. Retired ATP B-727, HS-125, IA-JET

    AMA Turbine CD Waiver Holder- BVM F-16, CARF-Viper, Flash, Super Extra 3.2M, 44%Giles, Extra 330, 1/8th scale F-18, flying r/c since I was 11 years old.


  23. #23

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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    Sorry this happened to BOTH you and the seller. Please don,t blame the seller. I'm sure he is a straight shooter just like most of the members on RCU. Ihave to stick with mick 1404 and say you are probably going to have to spend some more bucks to get your wing. Good luck. In parting I am compelled to ask ; Hey mick 1404, did you take that picture out at my club?? Ha!!

  24. #24
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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    IMO the first mistake you made was buyng from an INDIVIDUAL on eBay in another country.  That right there means you are the one and only responsible for any screwups.  Pay the money, get your wing and go flying.

  25. #25

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    RE: Off-topic: Am I wrong here?

    ORIGINAL: rgburrill

    IMO the first mistake you made was buyng from an INDIVIDUAL on eBayÂ*in another country.Â* That right there means you are the one and only responsible for any screwups.Â* Pay the money, get your wing and go flying.
    There is NOTHING wrong with buying and selling on EBay. I have better luck on there, then I do on RCU, and prefer to sell on EBay,verse RCU. Out of over 500+ transactions, I only had an issue with one seller, but still recieved the product. Mostly, because the guys on RCU don't take the time to make proper offers through the RCU system and leave feedback to pick out the irresponsible sellers or buyers. On EBay, I block those that are not worthy buyers, and don't ever buy from someone with less then a 99% feed back. On RCU, you are lucky to even see a feedback left of the transaction.
    JPO Yearly Member. Retired ATP B-727, HS-125, IA-JET

    AMA Turbine CD Waiver Holder- BVM F-16, CARF-Viper, Flash, Super Extra 3.2M, 44%Giles, Extra 330, 1/8th scale F-18, flying r/c since I was 11 years old.



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