Steve Westphal

I have been aware that the Cox/Estes engine is no longer in production but what about the other contenders such as....AP, Toki etc........? I have always flown Cox and Wen-Mac but never the others. Sometimes it sounds as though the others have disappeared. What gives? Should I go on a 1/2A engine buying frenzy? I have several Cox .049's with one throttled(.051), several TD .020's and a couple of Pee Wee .020's along with a TD .09 and a TD .15 if I can find that one. We fly 1/2A planes with several using .020's. We also use the Cox .051 with throttle when we can.....but....are there any other 1/2A engines coming out? Our Cox .051 with throttle is an amazing motor and I should buy up 3 or 4 more of them I am so impressed. I see the TT.07 is available(apparrently) and if so I should buy several of them, correct? Are Cyclon motors available? I am pretty sure that Norvel is a thing of the past. What gives???

HBF

icerinkdad

Cox is available from a Canadian company. They bought up all the inventory and are producing at least reed valve engines. AP makes a reasonably good Norvel clone. Norvel is again available from Russia at a much higher price. Brodak is importing several engines... really 1/2A might be in better shape than you think. In addition there are limited runs of very high performance engines coming out of Russia and other former Soviet block countries. Expect to pay about $80-90 for a new engine of medium performance and well into the $200 range for high performance.
Bob

ffkiwi

Electrics have made enormous inroads into the 1/2A market over the past decade or so. The worldwide market for 1/2A engines has contracted massively-to the point where it is probably uneconomic for a manufacturer to devote much effort to a tiny segment of the market-and in turn that market has become more fastidious-where once you had a choice of a variety of low priced Cox engines (and OK Cubs)-you now have the situation where there are effectively three levels of cost and complexity in 1/2A-the cheap low end-still Cox dominated, the medium priced area-where you find TTO7, Brodak, MP Jet, Toki (and various 06 derivative car type engines) and the top end-where you find very high performance highly refined engines such as the Cyclon, Profi and Fora offerings-but at anywhere from $150-$250 these latter can in no way be considered cheap-nor are they particularly amenable to R/C use-being designed for flat out performance either in FF or C/L classes [which doesn't preclude their use in R/C classes-such as pylon, but certainly restricts the type of R/C application]

So first you have to decide where your major interest lies-if its just general fun and sport R/C-then there are enough Coxes still out there to keep us all happy-and thanks to Cox International, an increasing availability of spare parts-though sadly not all-and not for the entire Cox range.

If you're happy to spend a little more money then you have the option to go down the TT07 (nice handling but generally regarded as a bit gutless), the MP Jets (your choice of diesel or glo, and an excellent carb, plenty of power) or the Norvel 074 (for the top in power) The Toki/Fuji 06 has a car engine ancestry, and the aircraft R/C users generally find it a bit disappointing-a lot of engine for what it delivers.

The AP 06 and CS 049/06 seem to have fallen by the wayside, and the Norvels, while still available, seem to be a bid of a grey area as to whether they are still in production- or not. The US supplier plays his cards very close in that respect.

The Brodak 049 Mk2 is still available in both std and RC forms (but at $70 for the latter is not much cheaper than a Norvel 074) but is likely to be timed for moderate power and C/L stunt use.

Finally the ultra high performance engines-the Cyclon, Profis and Fora are expensive, in relatively short supply-and emanating from eastern europe, spares support may be less than optimal. In any case, there is some doubt over the current ability of Cyclon to deliver, as previous posts on RCU have indicated..........

In the outfield-potentially there are still Enya 049s and 06-IIs out there-again production status and spares support is unclear, and Mecoa are slowly tooling up to produce various Cox parts (heads, head gaskets and TD moulded plastic carb and tank parts) as well as heads for the early K&B Stallion and Aurora 049s-and they have some parts available for Atwood Wasp and Holland Hornets. So you can keep some of these older 1/2As running (especially if you just need a new glowhead)

It's not too difficult to keep your existing Coxes maintained, repaired and functioning, and I almost forgot about the Fox 049/07s-for which spares are still available from whomever has that business these days (ie not from Fox Mfg)

There's still plenty of 1/2A options-but you need to decide on what types you want to operate-and what type of use you're going to put them too-and how much you're prepared to spend to keep them operating.

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'

aspeed

I kind of like the TT .07.  Watch for the sloppy crankshaft/crankcase fit.  I think they were all made like that.  I kind of like the .09 and .10's too.  The OS .10 is still available I think.  There are lots of used ones around too. The Cox reedy stuff isn't steady enough for me, and I can't fly without a muffler at my field.  Not crazy about the leckies but may change if I have to I guess.  In 30 years or so.  AP .06 and .09/.15(cheap thrills) seems to never be in stock any more, but may be worth stocking up on as well as the Norvel .074. The better Russian stuff is more for competion, which is fine,  I would just as soon get a .15 and pretend it is a Fora .049 for sporty type flying.

GallopingGhostler

I haven't noticed the sloppy crankshaft/crankcase fit on my TT GP-07, but then it is the earlier purple headed one. Where I saw that was on the A.C. Gilbert Thunderhead .074's, but they seemed to correct themselves after run in, may be a function of built up Castor oil film. Only thing about going with a larger engine is if the OP planned to build a plane designed for the .049 engine. The others may be too heavy and too powerful for such a plane.

Coxes are still available from several sources, greatest probably being Cox International of Canada.

[link]http://coxengines.ca/[/link]

aspeed

I have three of the purple headed .07 TT.  All of them have a fair bit of play. With a prop on, wiggle it up and down while pulling on the prop so you don't confuse the end play with shaft clearance.  I soldered one of the motor's bearings and brought it back into spec, and it seems to run a bit more even and maybe a little faster.  It used to vary rpm a bit on the high end, not too bad though really.  Yes, you are right about the .10's and .09's being a bit much for the real light 1/2A sized planes.  It could fold up a wing or be too noseheavy.

dckrsn

There's also http://www.exmodelengines.com/ in Conneticut.
Matt is a great guy to deal with for Cox engines and parts.
Bob

GallopingGhostler

I'm wondering if may be the somewhat erratic top end RPM was caused by air leaks through the shaft to the crankcase.

Tinning the brass plain bearing, that's an interesting way to add a little liner to take up the slack. I kind of reminds me of the babbit engine bearings I installed when overhauling a few auto motors in the 1970's. It a was fairly soft compound, easy to scratch with a fingernail. Just wondering if run on plain Castor oil fuel that the Castor might build a film there.

aspeed

A bit extra oil helps a bit too, like on the old worn out ringed and lapped motors.  A smaller motor runs better with a less viscous fuel I think.  I believe that is why nitro works so well on the little motors, besides the fact it is nitro and has more oxygen.  I believe it thins the fuel a little better than just methanol for atomization.  The extra oil will run smoother, but maybe a little slower.  I like the soldering on the bearings.  I have about a half hour on the motor with no wear yet.  You have to make sure the carb. AND the plastic nipple on the needle valve is off when soldering.  I had to tap the crank through to scrape out the buildup, an then fit it.  I just used a big soldering iron.  I wouldnt use a torch or anything crazy hot.  On my Baby Bees I made a brass sleeve when they wore out. Same for the Stels .049 which was too loose from the factory.

AMB

the TT07 and TT10 are out of production, an 18 is their smallest now, the 07 was a weak engine on power on glow or diesel conversion
Davis made a few heads for them but pulled them from production they did nothing for the engine. The tt10 was a great engine as glow and a diesel conversion I think better than the OS10s I have both wearing Davis diesel heads really like the TT10 with angled back needle martin

aspeed

Too bad about no more small TT's.  My TT .10 is a real slug on glow.  It has a straight needle.  13,500 rpm on a 7-4.  The FP .10 was 17,200 without a muffler (maybe 1,500 less with muffler)  The LA .10 was 17,500 without a muffler and 16,200 with one, and 17,000 with an opened baffle.  All on 10% and the same prop.  I haven't tried a diesel for a long time, about 40 years. I am glad I picked up a couple of .07 TT's in Perry, and a couple Norvels too. An .06 and .049. I don't mind fiddling with the .07 to get it to go good, I might make a Turbo head for them someday.  Got three now, They idle nice and smooth.

GallopingGhostler

Tower Hobbies still stocks the TT GP-07.

Mr Cox

Yes, the TT07GP is still being made as far as I know. The later version is not bad, it is a fairly nice engine actually. The performance with a DDD head can't be held against it, TT never claimed that it should work well as a diesel...

AMB

Mr Cox as I remember there was a number of posts a while back with unhappy campers on the TT07 as not being a good rever it may have been operator inexperience wrong fuel etc.
but also not the best job or porting and timing I think a few guys made changes and improved preformance they are not MP jets 061s which I have 3 diesels but again they are less than half the price too, no not junkers, but not stellar either, the difference between the TT10 and TT07 is profound martin

Andrew

The older purple head TT07 with separate carb is discontinued, but it has been replaced by the newer integrated carb/case design.

AMB

Andrew checked our several site in the US and UK cannot find it listed yes used ones on flea bay is all I could come up with

aspeed

All of mine are with a purple head, and an integrated carb/case. $20 to $30 used. I saw them for sale in Canada for $80 when they first came out (gouging?) so thought $30 was pretty good. A 6" 3 1/2" went 15,800 rpm with 10%. I did the turbo crank, a little more grindingand took off the muffler and it went 17,000. I think that is pretty good compared to say a TD, which never came with a muffler or useable throttle. A turbo plug head might help a bit too, as well as a bigger carb. I can't see that happening too easy with the integral carb. A Norvel is better at 18,900 rpm with the same prop no muffler. I think they are still available. Mine runs real nice. At full throttle, there is a lot of leeway in the needle setting which is a good change. It could mean there is more power available with a bigger carb if consistancy is no concern.

Andrew

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXRWT3&P=0

http://www3.omnimodels.com/cgi-bin/w...I=TTRG1010&P=0

http://www.advantagehobby.com/180743/TTR9007/?pcat=382

http://www.rcplanet.com/Thunder_Tige..._p/ttr9007.htm

http://www.gravesrc.com/THUNDER_TIGE..._p/ttr9007.htm

AMB

THX Andrew looks like you do a better job of search than I do looks like a few sitting around on the shelves martin

aspeed

It seems like TT .10's and .15's aren't made any more, but OS LA .10's and .15's are, and TT .07 is ABN not ABC.which doesn't amount to a hill of beans, but I read it on the instructions.  Lots of reading there.  It seems like I am missing the wrench for the .07, I had to make my own.

ZAGNUT

My Feedback: (1)

no money in the 1/2A engine game. to see how bad it is just look at the other end of the model engine spectrum where every manufacturer and his dog is trying to get in on the action: the 50-60cc gassers...the really cheap and nasty chinese engines start at around $250 and at the other end are the $500 western made engines. from a manufacturing standpoint the only difference between these and the little engines is maybe $10 in materials plus an ignition module and carb that might cost $30...added bonus is that they can get away with really sloppy tolerances on the big engines

so who in their right mind would mess around with 1/2A engines when no one is going to buy them unless they're under $50?

Andrew

ChrisM up in post #3 laid out a bunch of sources - plus there are 2 big suppliers for COX and NORVEL is back on-line. There are still parts and engines out there for reasonable pricing.

However, we have fallen into the idea that small engines should have small prices and big engines should bring big prices. In reality, the difference in material costs is likely only a couple of dollars, but small engines really need to be machined to tighter tolerances to run well. I think it is more market perception rather than manufacturing cost that sets the price we are willing to pay in our minds.

ZAGNUT

My Feedback: (1)

but how much of that is NOS? and the rest is spotty at best, a manufacturer will crank out a run of engines and then just sit on them until they're gone...if and when they make another run is always up in the air.

what you said about manufacturing costs is exactly what i said, everybody else knows it as well but we still aren't willing to spend what it really costs to make a good engine.

ffkiwi

.....I omitted from my earlier post in #3-PAW-who are very much still in business-producing (in the 1/2A engine area) the 03, 049 and 061-roughly equivalent to Babe Bee, Medallion and TD 049s respectively in power output-in both standard and R/C versions-plus you can get radial mounts for them, (facilitating mounting on many 1/2A designs) and mufflers. Once you've got over the diesel learning curve re starting and setting, these engines are perfectly valid 1/2A power plants-and for certain uses-eg scale and vintage-superior. Fuel is not the issue its made out to be (see RCU: 'Everything diesel' forum) and there is economy of operation, less noise-and the ability to cope with larger props than 1/2A glows can comfortably turn........

ChrisM
'ffkiwi'

aspeed

Diesels are a great idea, you don't need a battery. I am so sick of charging batteries. I could never get my diesel startedso I got rid of it. I should have tried harder maybe. (40 years ago) I thought I would put the TT .07 thread in from years ago. It is quite a long thread, it doesn't need resurrecting but has some info, being that they are still being made. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_67..._1/key_/tm.htm I kind of wonder what the hole is for just under and behind the backexh. bolt hole?