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  1. #1

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    Help! Whizzard is a PIG

    My 10 year old son is helping me finish up a 20 year old project, an Ace Whizzard from a kit. I just weighed it (all up w/ radio gear, engine, wheels, etc.) and it came to 24oz! The plans say 16 to 20 oz!

    Do they just mean the plane (minus engine and radio gear) or do I have a fat pig that won't fly?

    Spec's

    Cox .049 Medallion RC engine
    Hitec FM radio gear: 8CH Supreme Rx, 3 mini servos, 270mAH flight pack, switch harness, etc.
    Plane was covered in Econocote. DuBro 2" wheels.
    Foam Wing w/ pressed in spar on top, glassed over seams and nylon packing tape along the bottom
    1 oz. Sullivan tank

    Am I worrying needlessly or do you have any suggestions on how to lighten the load?

    Thanks ahead of time.
    If you can\'\'t put it in your car, or climb into it, then what good is it?

  2. #2

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    RE: Help! Whizzard is a PIG

    The older kits usually were over optimistic about the finished weight. It will probably fly ok with the Medallion. Are you using light weight foam wheels? Maybe loose a few grams there. Also, I have been using the 7-9 gram servos in 1/2A planes for years for a nice weight saving. Your battery seems fine. Did you weigh it on a fisherman's scale? They are usually inaccurate to the heavy side

  3. #3

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    RE: Help! Whizzard is a PIG

    No, I used a digital kitchen scale I picked up at our church's rummage sale. It reads in both grams and oz.'s.

    The wheels are not foamies or ultra-lites. I weighed them separately - 1.3 oz's for the pair.

    I was surprised to see the 40-inch wing weighed over 5.4 oz.'s. I guess I was a little heavy on the epoxy with the glass and spar.
    If you can\'\'t put it in your car, or climb into it, then what good is it?

  4. #4

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    RE: Help! Whizzard is a PIG

    A few points-you can retrieve the situation somewhat if you're prepared to change equipment and perhaps spend a few $

    (1) a lot of the weight comes from the moulded foam wing-not a lot you can do apart from cutting lightening holes. BUT you could build a built up one to the same planform and section-for probably 1/3 the weight
    (2) you're using heavy gear-why on earth put an 8 channel Rx in a 3-channel model? There are compact Rxs out there now (typ 4 ch) for 3-4g (even lighter if you go 2.4GHz. Ditto servos-to me, 'mini' servos are in the 14-20g range (18g is typical) and 2/3 the size of a standard servo. 9g servos are more than adequate for this type of model-and you could drop a size for the throttle-to a 6g one.
    (3) Battery-is it a NiCd? I've just weighed a bare 4.8V 270mAh NiCd at 53g-say 60g with connector. A 400 mAh NiMH pack weighs in at just over 30g and a 160 mAh at 18g-using my rough figures your R/C gear comes to about 130g with the switch harness-thats 4.5oz just in r/C gear, whereas you could cut that to about 50g or less (using a small 6g throttle servo and micro switch harness)-there's a >60% weight saving just like that!
    (4) then look at your wheels, connectors, horns and pushrods-wheels can be heavy-if there were Ace ones in the kit-they're real heavy! Try the newer lightweight Parkflyer type foam wheels-Great Planes 'ultralight' or dave brown 'Liteflight' range. Look at the Dubro or Goldberg park flyer range of accessories for horns, linkages, pushrods etc that are an appropriate size and weight for 1/2A use.

    It ought to be possible to knock at least 6 oz off your current total by substituting items. Of course you'll need to make positional adjustments with the R/C gear and battery location to achieve your CG location, compared with the current equipment.

    .....a 24 oz Whizard will fly-but not as well as it might.....or should!

    ChrisM
    'ffkiwi'

  5. #5
    combatpigg's Avatar
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    RE: Help! Whizzard is a PIG

    I think it'll fly OK.
    You could build the same plane but with lighter techinque / design and see a huge difference, though.
    Keep this thought........ it is practically impossible for a Cox .049 powered plane to be built too lightly..[within reason].
    build one predominantly out of balsa sticks, lightweight balsa sheet, leave out as much plywood, hardwood, steel, fiberglass, etc. as possible.
    If the framework is so wimpy that the iron on covering distorts it, use cellophane covering [found at craft stores] applied with 3M77. It's cheap and nothing is lighter.
    WHO GUNNA FEED MAW KEEEIDS..???

  6. #6

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    RE: Help! Whizzard is a PIG

    One of the traps we sometimes fall into is to build the plane to withstand crashes. This is especially true of trainers. A wise builder once said to build it to fly, not to crash.

    ...wish I always did that! [&o]

    George

  7. #7

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    RE: Help! Whizzard is a PIG

    Thanks, guys. These are all great suggestions.

    CP, I weighed the wheels separately. There are classic DuBro 2" treaded (2.00T) - 1.3 oz for the pair. I could save an ounce right there by switching to ultralight foamies.

    As for the radio gear, I did just order a new NiMH Rx pack, but of a higher capacity. Still lighter than the 270maH NiCD, but only by a couple of grams.

    The receiver is what came with the radio set. I am also looking into what auction deals I can find on a lighter 4/5 channel Rx that is compatible.

    Servos are pretty much installed. The mini's Ichose weighed lighter for 3 than the original 2 std. that the plane was planned with. I wasn't sure how small/light Icould go with them. I might do this in the future, but would rather save the $$ right now and the time of ordering and re-installing smaller ones.

    Imay eventually build up a balsa wing for this plane. But I would like to get this up in the air for my son, before he loses interest.

    What about removing the case on the 8CH Rx? Is there much of a risk, and does anyone know what the weight savings might be?
    If you can\'\'t put it in your car, or climb into it, then what good is it?

  8. #8
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    RE: Help! Whizzard is a PIG

    I have flown a Mini Falcon at 24-25 ounces (oink!) and it was fine, even kept it aloft in a thermal for a while (once) after cut-out which surprised me. Futaba S-33 mini servos (only 2), 6-ch receiver, 270mAh Nicad pack, and the empty fuselage alone weighs almost as much as my most recent 1/2A model RTF. Also a Simple 400 at about the same weight (alas, it was a lekkie, forgive me), it has the tapered ACE wings, the wing loading was fine, but not a floater.

    But for sure if you can add lightness.. do it!
    Sorry I'm late dear, I had to help my uncle Jack off his horse.

  9. #9

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    RE: Help! Whizzard is a PIG


    ORIGINAL: VUgearhead

    Thanks, guys. These are all great suggestions.

    CP, I weighed the wheels separately. There are classic DuBro 2'' treaded (2.00T) - 1.3 oz for the pair. I could save an ounce right there by switching to ultralight foamies.

    As for the radio gear, I did just order a new NiMH Rx pack, but of a higher capacity. Still lighter than the 270maH NiCD, but only by a couple of grams.

    The receiver is what came with the radio set. I am also looking into what auction deals I can find on a lighter 4/5 channel Rx that is compatible.

    Servos are pretty much installed. The mini's IĀ*chose weighed lighter for 3 than the original 2 std. that the plane was planned with. I wasn't sure how small/light IĀ*could go with them. I might do this in the future, but would rather save the $$ right now and the time of ordering and re-installing smaller ones.

    IĀ*may eventually build up a balsa wing for this plane. But I would like to get this up in the air for my son, before he loses interest.

    What about removing the case on the 8CH Rx? Is there much of a risk, and does anyone know what the weight savings might be?
    If you plan on flying over grass, you may want to remove the landing gear altogether. I remember test flying one for a club member back in the early '90's that had two standard servos and a 500mAh NiCd battery. It was powered by a Cox Black Widow .049. It flew, but flew better without the landing gear. I also got to fly one that a member built full house with Cannon micro gear and a G-Mark .061. That was a totally different experience as it was capable of all sorts of maneuvers. As for the heavy one, the builder did learn to fly using it. It is a versatile plane.
    I wish you and your son good luck with your plane.

  10. #10

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    RE: Help! Whizzard is a PIG

    If you decide to spend a little money, you can get a decent FM Rx from
    Heads Up RC (in Florida) with a crystal for under $15. They have some little
    9g servos for $3 as well. The 270 nicad pack is about as small as
    I would use. The Corona receiver is .2 oz, would save 1 oz. over the Supreme 8.
    Dave
    http://www.headsuphobby.com/

  11. #11
    hllywdb's Avatar
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    RE: Help! Whizzard is a PIG

    In one of my nostalgia fits (they happen sometimes) I built a Jr Falcon and outfitted it with FULL size Futaba AM servos, a 7 Channel AM reciver, and an old 400mah NiCad battery. Yep, it was an oinker, BUT the medallion flew it just fine. I removed the case from the big reciever (just to make it fit) and wrapped just the board in foam. Had no problems with it for years. Most of the small FM recievers have no case, just a thin wrap of plastic anyway, so it is do-able. Now I just use the small Berg FM recivers and have had zero failures. But back then we made some heavy stuff fly. I had an old Wizzard with full size servos back in the day and it would fly fine with a reedie. Yes, CP is right, they all fly better when lighter, but most of us spent years flying some bricks back then and still had fun.

  12. #12

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    RE: Help! Whizzard is a PIG

    I could put up a 1/2a plane at 16oz if I used my Cannon radio, 3 Bantam Midget servos
    a 270 pack and a TeeDee. They do fly well at that weight! Piece of cake these days.
    Dave

  13. #13

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    RE: Help! Whizzard is a PIG

    mine was a pig too,,its that foam wing, but I put a norvel .074 on it and it was fine...Rog
    Ever walk into a room and forget what you went in for?...ADHD, welcome to my world,it happens everyday!

  14. #14

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    RE: Help! Whizzard is a PIG

    Ace did not use the lightest wood in their kits. My AllStar bipe has wood that is rock hard and heavy. And, of course, the molded foam wings are not light. But, the only way to judge your airplane is to fly it. I bet that it will fly fine. Just don't make sharp turns low and slow.
    Frank

  15. #15

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    RE: Help! Whizzard is a PIG

    Fritzke,

    That stuff at Head's Up is THEBOMB!

    I can get out with all new plane gear (minus the Rx battery) for less than $30, ANDSAVEONTHEWEIGHT!

    Between the wheels, Rx, and servos, Ican save nearly 4 ounces from my original weigh up! If I can get the Whizzard down to 20 oz. from the original 24, I'll be happy.

    Now, togetthe SWMBO to look the other way............
    If you can\'\'t put it in your car, or climb into it, then what good is it?

  16. #16

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    RE: Help! Whizzard is a PIG

    They ship very fast and have extremely reasonable shipping costs.
    I have ordered from them twice now, probably will again.

    Lightest way to finish an Ace kit is with light silkspan and dope
    on the balsa with a blast of color, and Solarfilm on the foam wings.
    Econocote is pretty good for foam wings too, a bit heavier though.

    My first GLH kit came with a fin made of mahogany grade balsa.
    It was replaced with some appropriate weight wood. Rest was OK.

    Dave

  17. #17

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    RE: Help! Whizzard is a PIG

    Yep, thumbs up for Heads Up, I've used them a bunch. The $2 shipping from FL to SC is quick!

  18. #18

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    RE: Help! Whizzard is a PIG


    ORIGINAL: hfenn

    Yep, thumbs up for Heads Up, I've used them a bunch. The $2 shipping from FL to SC is quick!
    Ditto here, too. The folks are great to deal with, prices are very competitive and the flat rate shipping can't be beat.

    +1 for Dave and Hollis.
    the "other" andrew
    I'm not older than dirt, but I can remember when it was patent pending

  19. #19

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    RE: Help! Whizzard is a PIG

    we lfew ours at max. weight with a Cox .051 R/C w/carb and it flew well. Heck....toss it up!!!
    Steve Westphal

  20. #20

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    Well, I've now bought new ultralight foamy wheels and a whole new flight pack from Head's up Hobby (great stuff BTW) and reduced my overall weight by 4 oz. Based on what I paid, the price of lightness in our models is worth more than Kobe beef! Not complaining, mind you, but even at those reasonable prices, ounce-for-ounce, the comparison is surprising.

    Whizzard is a little more svelte, now.

    Up next, putting the Medallion on the newly made test stand!
    Last edited by VUgearhead; 08-06-2013 at 02:00 PM.
    If you can\'\'t put it in your car, or climb into it, then what good is it?

  21. #21
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by VUgearhead View Post
    No, I used a digital kitchen scale I picked up at our church's rummage sale. It reads in both grams and oz.'s. The wheels are not foamies or ultra-lites. I weighed them separately - 1.3 oz's for the pair. I was surprised to see the 40-inch wing weighed over 5.4 oz.'s. I guess I was a little heavy on the epoxy with the glass and spar.
    Possibility exists that your scale may be off. Have you weighed known items (i.e. engine, servos, etc.) to check the scale's accuracy? With the more powerful Medallion, I'd be less concerned about the weight. Plane designed somewhat heavy to begin with and was designed to handle standard servos and radio gear of the time on a .049 reed valve engine. You've already made some lightening changes, it ought to fly fine, IMO.

    Besides, with the under power of a .049, it was designed to loop and stunt if put into a speed building dive anyway. That was the fun of those type models.
    George Hostler
    Clovis MADS AMA Club, Vintage R/C Society (VRCS)
    And we know love by this, that He laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 1 John 3:16

  22. #22
    hllywdb's Avatar
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    I flew my old Whizzard in full dress with full size S-28 servos and full size FM reciever and battery on just a baby bee. No landing gear though. If you have shaved another 4oz off and are using a medallion (one of my favorites) it should fly just fine. It wasn't designed for 3D anyway

  23. #23

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    The good news is that the Whizzard is one of the best, sport/trainerf 1/2A aircraft ever. It does her best at 16 ounces or less with a throttled engine. Got to teach throttle management at the same time IMO.
    Andy Woitowicz
    On YouTube as hopeso
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af4dQNa60_w

  24. #24
    GallopingGhostler's Avatar
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    True. A similar sized and type aircraft is the 40" span ARF Sureflite foam Cessna 180 that I flew today. Powered by a Norvel Big Mig .061 CL with their 0.75 oz. CL tank with pickup relocated to the bottom. I was surprised how well the Norvel pulled the airplane, and this is with a MECOA Texaco glow plug adapter head with lower compression than the standard head. This was on a Masters 6x3 prop and without muffler at 4,300 feet elevation.

    That Medallion ought to do really fine on that Whizzard.
    George Hostler
    Clovis MADS AMA Club, Vintage R/C Society (VRCS)
    And we know love by this, that He laid down His life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren. 1 John 3:16

  25. #25

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    I last flew a Whizard with a TT .07 and it was more than adequate power.
    I think that little engine is a good choice for all those old 1/2a sport planes,
    and you can cancel out the greater engine weight with a modern micro radio and still
    have "full house" control (4 channels) as we used to call it.
    Dave
    http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXRWT3&P=TS


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