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.020 size GLH

Old 12-05-2013, 02:11 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by hllywdb View Post
I hollowed the wing all the way down to the top skin. I'm thinking of just hot glueing a 6g servo in rather than try and use hardwood mounts. Also going to just use hing tape as control surfaces are 1/16". I figure I can also go light on the elevator pushrod as it's setup to pull for "up" and I won't be doing a lot of inverted.
6g servos are fine, as long as you don't use the very cheapest ones. In my Yellow Jacket I'm using servos from Scanner RC (with one BB, and a weight of 6-7g). Another important thing is to not have any slop (especially on the elevator), pull-pull works very well and it is lightweight. I have never tried using just glue for attachment though...

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Old 12-05-2013, 10:35 AM
  #77  
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I can't run pull-pull as I had to mount the servo coming through the top, not enough room inside. I've used hot glue on all my 1/2a combat servos in the last few years and haven't had an issue with them. I know the original 049 size GLH called for double sided tape for the elevator servo due to space issues. It was no problem to hard mount the elevator servo on this one, but the aileron would be funky. I filled the 1st bay on each wing half with balsa block sanded down between the TE and the spar, then cut out for the servo so it's good and solid around the servo with a snug fit. So I'm thinking the hot glue should be fine.
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:07 PM
  #78  
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You know you only need one aileron too, you only go straight and turn left.
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:12 PM
  #79  
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But what if I want to do an avalanche going the other way?
Too late, I have both set up
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Old 12-05-2013, 12:57 PM
  #80  
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Fly upside down.
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Old 12-05-2013, 01:16 PM
  #81  
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I've tried a single aileron a couple times and never again. There wasn't enough control at low speeds, especially gliding home against a cross wind
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Old 12-06-2013, 08:43 AM
  #82  
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OK, stage 1 complete. It's finished and hopefully flyable. It makes my 1/2a GLH look like a stratocaster with an F15 escort, and my 1/2a one is scaled down to 28". I had to cut into the rear bulkhead and slide the 260mah battery back into the rear compartment just a tad to get to CG. But I have room to slide it farther to account for a small fuel tank in the nose, especially if I lose the plastic tank and just use a backplate.

Mounting all the gear brought back memories of doing GLH and Sig Hummers back in the 70's and trying to cram in S-28 servos and full size am recievers. If I had to do it again I would make some changes. I think a blind 8 year old could have built it lighter. I was planing on using every other rib, but that got lost in the build as by the time I remembered that I wanted to do that I had ribs in the wrong spaces so I just kept going. I always build to the wood, not the plan so I start with the spar and TE and use 3 ribs to get everything in position. Of course I glued the middle rib right where I would have skipped one. Go figure. I think I would also consider small linier servos and a 1s battery to save weight and space. Never thought 6g servos would seem so huge. Didn't weigh it but it feels fine compared to the wee stick so should be OK.

If the weather is OK tomorrow I may try and toss it up. At this point I am still waiting for engine parts and props to get here so Stage 2 will have to wait a few days, but that will give me time to get everything sorted out and trimmed on the base engine and should give me a feel for how it will react with less prop diameter.

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Old 12-06-2013, 12:37 PM
  #83  
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Nice work..! It looks HWP for a .020 powered plane.
Let the games begin...!
I think 60 mph would be a victory, 70 would be a total win after all the various tricks and schemes have been tried.
It's nice that you got the extra engine...that's a psychological boost knowing that you can be as aggressive as you want with a guinea pig engine and still have a .020 that will run at the end of the day.
Please get a weight on it ..that's a big part of the DRAMA with these build thread projects, you know.

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Old 12-06-2013, 01:20 PM
  #84  
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I brought it in an weighed it at work. It came in at 5.1oz. That's within specs, I was looking for anything under 5.5, that way I figured it would have enough glide to land and should get launched on a small diameter prop. It's not record setting weight by any means, but not bad as I covered it in plain old Ultracote. Hey when you're building with 1/16" and 1/32" the covering is 30% of the engineered structure
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Old 12-06-2013, 11:51 PM
  #85  
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hehe, it does give me an idea for SWR .020 plane

Looking forward to flight reports!
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Old 12-07-2013, 06:51 AM
  #86  
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When I get a chance I'll clean up the plans and post them. Once I start on the motor and props I'll try and document the work in stages.
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Old 12-07-2013, 07:51 PM
  #87  
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Flight report:
I was able to get in 8 flights today of varrying lengths. I had previously disassembled the TD, cleaned everything up, replaced the venturi, and reset the piston. Then I ran it 3 runs on the stand. So I assumed it would run just fine on the plane.

I know, now that you've stopped laughing, I'll continue. Just didn't run consistant, some runs were blazing, others were fine, then quit, etc... I looked at all the usual culprits, cut a new piece of fuel line a smidge longer for the needle, added a head shim, subracted a head shim, changed the glow plug. Finally when I was just about to take Bill Attwood's name in vain (I know, blasphemy) I found the issue. As I was getting set to launch for the 9th flight I saw the dirt specs in the fuel line headed for the NVA. Tank was clean when I put it together so it seems my Sullivan fuel bulb had bit the dust after only 10 years and was breaking up inside. Go figure. But I did get a lot of flights in so here goes.

The Launch:
The CG is set well aft compared to a "sport" model so if you give it a normal 1/2a launch it goes a bit nose high and tail heavy like one of the Kardashians trying to swim. But that is short lived and it climbs out quickly. Once at speed the tail heaviness disappears so I am thinking I am close for this type. I played with the CG but it flies fastest with the cg aft. I found if you toss it exactly straight out on the launch it's a piece of cake. If you do get a slow flight (Like if you were stupid enough to use an old fuel bulb and the dirt kept clogging the nva) it will snap out of a tight loop. On a normal run loops are HUGE and fast (a relative term here in 020 speak).

On the subject of CG adjustments, this turned out to be quite simple and I included a picture. I would like to say the idea evolved from longs hours spent engineering it, performing the calculations, and running through a few computer models, but I think the folks at Boeing and Grumman refer to it as "Happenstance" engineering. As I said ealier I had cut through the rear bulkhead to slide the battery back. For some weird reason I had patience that day and cut it out slowly and kept checking the clearance. The end result was a nice snug fit where it kind of snaps into place in between the cells on the 260mah nmh battery. So to change the CG you just snap it forward one cell or back one and presto! CG adjusted at the field. I know all the pattern guys are jelouse just reading this and you'll probably see a lot of planes set up this way at the NATS this year. But again, I digress....


Control throws:
I had set the throws again using the time honored "Looks about right" technique mentioned earlier in the thread. This did not work out as well as my neat CG adjuster. The CORRECT throws are 1/16" up and down on the ailerons and 1/8" on the elevator. This will still give you about 2 rolls per second. Turns out I had A LOT more than I needed. So the first flight was a bit white knuckled and wouldn't you know that was one of the runs that ran blazing all the way to the end of the tank.

Landings:
This is pretty much a non-event and it's close to the old GLHs. If you keep the speed up and then flare its smooth as silk. If you try and streatch out the glide like a sport model its more like a controlled stall, just kind of sinks like a power on stall in a cub. But due to the swept wing, even with the aft CG it doesn't drop a wing or get nasty.

Airframe:
Turns out it's quite a bit sturdier than it looks. One landing in a 5' mullberry bush and another time I snapped out of a loop and flew full speed into another bush without a scratch. So it's probably over built and leaves lots of room for those of you who chase the Goddess of Lightness.

After getting the trim settings and throws set, it is a blast to fly so far. I'm going to ball park the speed right now at somewhere in the 40-45mph range. It seems like it's almost twice as fast as the wee stick with the pee wee, and it might be as the stick is fat and slow and the pee wee doesn't realy unload in the air, it just kind of zips around being held back by the fat wing. You can put a Nelson on a cub with a 9X8 prop but you're really not going to go any faster. The TD does unload quite a bit in the air with this airframe, so I think there is lots of room to improve. I am thinking that it's possible to easily get past the 50mph mark on a stock TD just using the right prop. 60-70 is probably going to take some motor work but I think the plane won't be the limiting factor. In any event, it's a lot more fun to fly than the stick and gives the impression of flying much faster due to the diminutive size. Plus it doesn't seem to even notice a 5-10 mph breeze.
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Old 12-07-2013, 09:15 PM
  #88  
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Excellent report...!
But I expect none less from you......
Reading about this great day of your's just raised the temperature here on the frozen tundra by about 10 degrees.
Now.... take that old red rubber bulb syringe that you paid $2.99 for in 1979 and toss it as far as you can towards the nearest landfill or swamp.
Get a Monoject 2 oz syringe from a farm supply or on line. Press fit a short hunk of 3.32" brass tubing into the plastic tip after you round off both ends of the brass. A couple of very short sheetmetal screws stabbed into the body of the syringe will prevent accidental "pull outs" in the heat of the moment. This syringe is very handy for not just fueling, but also for troubleshooting and clearing fuel flow issues.
Some of these syringe models do not have the right kind of tip to accept the 3/32" brass tubing as a press fit, so this is why I recommend you seek out a local store where you can "size up" the product before you purchase.
It sounds like this plane is what you were looking for for performance potential. At just over 5 ozs, it's pretty hard to see how you can improve on that figure by very much. Covering with tinted cellophane might lose a 1/4 oz...?
Building it stick style with hundreds of glue joints and almost too flimsy to accept iron on covering...?
How much do hundreds of glue joints weigh VS just using balsa sheet..?
In the real world of RC, sheet makes more sense to me.
Pull / pull with a tiny micro servo...hmmmm...wonder how much pre-load tension they can tolerate long term..?
The LIPO battery does make some sense, I haven't gone there yet [but I don't fly .020].
It's just hard to see how significant changes in weight can be made [below 5 ozs], but OTOH it is what makes this hobby fun to see how far in any direction you can go.
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Old 12-08-2013, 03:25 PM
  #89  
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Thanks CP. I stopped by the LHS today and scored a new in package Sig 2oz fueling syringe for combat bladders. It's also graduated in 1cc marks as well. My local guy always has lots of stuff like that. He also had an old ACE kit with foam wings for a 020 size too. Can't remember the model but it had a 28" wingspan, top wing type. He only wanted $15 for it too. Another thing I like about him is that he doesn't mark stuff up to flea bay "collector" prices. 2 months ago he sold me a new Pee Wee for $30. So I try to buy as much as I can from him rather than online, local guys like him should be supported.
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Old 12-09-2013, 07:47 AM
  #90  
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Good report and fun to hear. Yah, I hate the ol rotting fuel bulb interior situation. Have to expect it after 10-15 years though
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Old 12-09-2013, 09:12 AM
  #91  
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I only use them for the 1/2a stuff with small tanks. I use my hand crank pump for the ones with at least a 1oz internal tank.

Next step is to start playing with the props when they get here. I am thinking I should be able to get in the 55mph range with just the stock TD and the right prop while still keeping the motor in a "safe" rpm zone. This would make for a realy fun plane to fly that anyone could build.

Once I get that benchmark established, I can then push into the 60's with some modifications on the 2nd motor.

Does anyone have some sort of a limit that I can expect to shear the crank pin on the TD 020? I know lightening the piston will help reduce the load on the pin, but just wondering what the self-destruct point is? Anyone have a spare crank for sale?

RPM limits on TD cranks tend to be like the number of full throttle snap rolls an airframe will do before it self destructs. Where "X" is the number it takes to break it and you would like to stay at (X-1).
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:48 AM
  #92  
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Congratulations on a successful maiden!

What prop did you use, the stock 4.5x2?

Regarding pull-pull and small servos, I haven't had any problems with the current ballbearing servo but I wouldn't trust the cheap HK servos. With the right set-up there is very little load on the servo at neutral rudder and it will be even less when deflected (with both rudder horns positioned aft of the hinge line).
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Old 12-09-2013, 10:51 AM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by hllywdb View Post
He also had an old ACE kit with foam wings for a 020 size too. Can't remember the model but it had a 28" wingspan, top wing type. He only wanted $15 for it too.
Sounds like the Pocket Rocket. I did a review on it for "R/C Report" magazine back in the early 90's. It's a fun little plane on a TD .020.
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:15 AM
  #94  
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Super story --- it was as much fun reading it as getting the information from it. Sounds like you've got it nailed down pretty well.

I chunked my old Sullivan bulb some time ago and now only use syringes for the small stuff. I was able to find an all nylon syringe without the black rubber plunger tip -- some of the early NORVEL information warned that the rubber tip would deteriorate and cause contamination of the plug elements. Don't know if that was an urban legend or not, but I made the switch anyway.

It's been a great build thread with an excellent ending.

andrew
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Old 12-09-2013, 11:46 AM
  #95  
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hfen, I belive it was a pocket rocket.

Mr Cox and Andrew, thank you.

It was a cox grey 4.5X2 that I ran for initial flights. Next up will be the thin CF props at 2.75 pitch. I will probably need to drop to well under 4" in diameter to get any usefull rpm on the stock motor. Later on the 2.75 pitch should allow me to get into the high 60-70mph range while still keeping in a resonable 27-28k range on the 2nd motor.
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Old 12-09-2013, 05:04 PM
  #96  
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Whoo hoo!
Got home today and got my 2nd motor and spares from Scott (WINANS) Thanks Scott!!! Have the motor disassembled and soaking as we speak.
ALSO got lots of packages from Bernie at Cox International, Mecoa, exmodels, VGE hobbies and a bunch of other sources. Still waiting on the props and the NVA from Texas Timers, but have plenty to at least get started thinking FAST
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Old 12-10-2013, 09:05 AM
  #97  
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OK, back to the drawing board on the pressure tap. I don't want to go through the side of the case as the only space to do this is where the case is grooved out for the con rod to swing around in. I think this is too thin an area and may be prone to clogging. Plus as the rod swings by the tap it may induce a partial change in pulses.

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Old 12-10-2013, 09:14 AM
  #98  
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Sooo... plan B is to tap the backplate. Since the area is a bit thin and only plastic, threading is not a great option. So I found a piece of brass tubing that fit right inside a Futaba servo mounting eyelet. I soldered it in and soldered the engine side closed. I can then drill it out for the correct pressure. Most of my small #60 to 80 drill bits are missing so I ordered a new set as the LHS didn't have a set in stock.

I am thinking of then drilling out the backplate to pass the eyelet size through with a snug fit. I am thinking I may need to recess the engine side just a bit to eliminate any incedental contact if the crank or rod moves around. Since the outside of the backplate is drilled out larger I can easily secure it. My first thought was to solder a washer on, but I am thinking this is a job for JB weld. It doesn't need to stick to the plastic well, but it will bond well to the brass tube and simply create a nice plug in the backplate. Then I can just run the pressure line straight back into the tank.

Figured I would throw it up here before I id it just to troubleshoot any issues I may not be thinking of.

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Old 12-10-2013, 11:52 AM
  #99  
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Why cant you aim the hole for the crankshaft counterweight...?
I don't know what the smallest size of brass tubing they offer is, but 1/16" ought to fit..?
You would probably need to make a tool to keep the tubing straight as you tap it or press it into the hole.
It can't be too much of a press fit...it's a tough call.
The rod recess is where I've aimed on other engines, but I felt that there was adequate meat to retain a press in tube.
Your idea to enter the backplate might be the most practical. If you could find some plastic tubing and the right way to weld the plastic in there...hmmm. I've got CA applicators that have pretty tough but flexible plastic necks.
The plastic extensions on WD40 might be about right........just some rambling thoughts.
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Old 12-10-2013, 12:22 PM
  #100  
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Or a Little Red Cap for a bladder. It is low pressure. If you can find a nipple with the same thread as the backplate screws, you can drill from the inside of the motor into the thread hole, and take it from there. Good luck finding a nipple that small. 2-56 I would guess. You can almost see how I did it on this old Supertiger .21 I think it happened to be drilled right through.
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