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"1/2 A" & "1/8 A" airplanes These are the small ones...more popular now than ever.

.020 size GLH

Old 12-31-2013, 06:14 AM
  #176  
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I figured it was one of those, but thought the diameter ended up below 4" dia. so wasn't sure.

I should have that little .010 foamie ready to go later this week. Won't move like this though.
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Old 12-31-2013, 07:03 AM
  #177  
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It sure uses up the field fast. Maybe one of the 4 1/4 - 4" props cut down a bit would hook up. They are pretty thin as they come. The pitch will get the speed if there are enough revs. I think it is a bit faster than I could handle already, but you seemed to have it no prob. I have been thinking of making a Pageboy for my new .010, not right now though. I think it is about 24,000 in the air. I get 22,000 and 26,000 with the pitch pipe method, and averaged it out. 66 mph? A 4" pitch at that rpm might do over 90 in the theoretic world.

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Old 12-31-2013, 08:06 AM
  #178  
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MJD, I have cut a couple down into the 3.6 range on the 2nd motor just on the test stand. It gets me another 2.5k on the ground. But right now I am focused on Stage 1, which is getting the plane sorted out and finding a good setup with just the stock TD. I ordered 2 new futaba 3114 servos last night as I don't want to take any more chances at this speed and would hate to lose the plane. I have parts coming for Stage 2 for both motors, 2 different routes and at this point I think 70-75 is well within reach.

Aspeed, I tried cutting down a 4.2X4 but the prop is just too big. For one the hub is a monster. The CF ones are much better suited. Plus there is just not enough torque to pull a 4" pitch with a 020 at almost any diameterr. I may order some 3 or 3 1/4" pitch props from the same guy as that may prove do-able. Speed wise right now I feel safe saying it's crossed the 60mph mark, which as CP said earlier has to be considered a "Win" at this size. I feel confident I can get over 70 with the 2.75 pitch, and then see what can be done with slightly more pitch. But none of that is going to happen with a stock motor. At this stage I'm quite happy with what can be done with the airframe that almost anyone could duplicate and have a cool little plane that will shock most onlookers if you bring it to your local club
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Old 01-05-2014, 07:54 PM
  #179  
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Got the Futaba 3114 servos in Friday night. Just a tab bit taller than the 6g Chineese. Flew it Saturday, made most adjustments at the field, and a few more at home. Flew it again this morning. Flys much better. Have to comment on a few things I sometimes forget about servos. Obviousley with 2 failed servos in 3 outings, reliability and to some degree safety is a forgone conclusion. But a big difference that becomes amplified at speed is centering ability in a quality sevo. You might not notice it in a slow flyer using elevator and rudder, but at speed where slight imputs result in quick directional changes, a servo with rock solid centering realy makes a difference. The other thing is servo speed. Almost all servos this size state the standard ".010 sec" for servo speed. Well, not all are exactly truthfull about this, kind of like HP ratings in motors. Sure, a Futaba or JR is likely to get a magazine review and those claims put to the test. But no one is likely to do a full blown review of a $2 servo, and even if they do I don't think the marketers care. I noticed a marked difference in servo speed flying these, and combined with much improved centering it realy made a difference in how it flew. I am sure the 24 oz in of tourque made a difference too under flight loads. Plane is pretty much rock solid now.
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Old 01-06-2014, 06:40 AM
  #180  
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Centering is crucial. You really notice how loose things were when you finally tighten them up. I still remember to this day about ?20? years ago when I built my first sport model with a dedicated servo per aileron... I wondered why I had not been doing this all along. On your model I bet you can induce a roll by shimming an aileron up about .01", so I can imagine the headaches that poor centering would cause. I use $20 servos now.. ;-)
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Old 01-10-2014, 10:51 PM
  #181  
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[QUOTE=hllywdb;11669709]CP I wish they made a Galbreath head for the 020 I use them on all my TDs and AMEs that are modified to scream. I added shims after burning out 2 in 20 sec. The first one came with the motor so I thought it could have been softt.

Cheer up hllwdb-they do...or rather Doug Galbreath will convert your old burnt out head to take a Nelson insert.....note an insert, not a plug-but still works. One of the other engine guys-Bob Mattes? or Bob Beecroft? also offers the same service......quite a bit of work involved though-and as I recall they prefer you send the whole engine, as they have to get the clearances right for the conversion to work properly....

ChrisM
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Old 01-13-2014, 04:59 PM
  #182  
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Well now that I have the plane flying rock solid, I am moving on to phase 2, which is now turning into a 2 part project. I have sent one TD 020 out to Bob Mattes to have him work his magic and send me back a 27k to 30k (depending on nitro content) motor. This should get me well over the 70mph mark.

The second motor I am doing myself. I am sending a burnt out plug to Doug to have him do his conversion on. I also picked up some parts from Mike (also known as ridenfligh on the bay) who has made those nice aluminium intakes to replace our broken plastic TD 049 ones for years. Turns out he also makes them for the 020 as well as a nice all aluminium replacement for the plastic backplate. He has a nice deal where you get the intake, the backplate, and a T-wrench for tightening the venturi all for $26. Turns out the T-wrench is sweet and I'm thinking of getting the one he makes for the 049 too. Also picked up some of his brass bushings for the APC props on the 049s while I was at it.

So it will be a tale of 2 motors. I have little doubt that Bob will exceed my tinkering results, but if I can get a decent increase I'll be happy and pleased as punch to get away from the cox plugs at $10 a pop.
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Old 01-13-2014, 05:40 PM
  #183  
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Mike 'ridenfligh' does a lot of good stuff-and his aluminium intake housings cover the whole TD range from 010 to 15-but it would cost me about a grand to get all the bits and pieces to do my extensive stable of TDs.....I particularly like his .15 aluminium intake-as trying to find original plastic replacements 50 years after they made them is a waste of time. The TD 020 4-point mounting backplate mounts are another great new idea that should have been done years ago-the TD 020 tank has always been the weak point of the design-both for leaking, trouble keeping the fuel line on the vestigial nipple, and 2-point mounting being less than ideal for thrust line adjustments....

Pleased to hear that Bob and Doug are doing their stuff for you-appreciate these guys while we have them-they won't be around forever-and their skills and experience are unique. I think it was Bob Mattes that also came up with a modified G-Mark 03 head in response to an approach from an RCU contributor-and unlike 020 heads which you can still get-even if the price makes you wince-the 03 heads are gone gone gone-so without a conversion option for a burnt out head, that's it.

ChrisM
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Old 01-13-2014, 07:47 PM
  #184  
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Yes we are coming to the end of "The age of craftsmen" and they will be almost impossible to replace. Sadly for the next generation hopping up a motor will consist of rewinding the armature, or most likely sending it out to be rewound. I see it now with cars and motorcycles. The new generations bolt on a set of exhaust pipes then go get their fuel system re-mapped electronically. Maybe I sound old but we used to weld up our own exhausts, port our own heads, and rejet carbs ourselves. I can remember running wide open down a country road and shutting the motor down, coasting to a stop, then pulling all 8 spark plugs to see which jets needed changing. We are the last generation of tinkerers, people who can build things with our hands and minds. The generation before us were the true master machinists and craftsmen. You would be hard pressed to find someone under 50 that can even run a bridgeport, let alone do some of the work that was turned out by those who are in their 80's now.

I had a chance this weekend to speak with an older gentleman that is restoring an old steam train. The work that he has been doing, replacing and building parts that haven't been made in 70 years at least, as he walked me through the old train. Making 13" thick axles, boiler plates, the plate bolts that have to all be made by hand with slightly tapered threads, each matched to the thread in the hole it was going into. That degree of craftsmanship will simply not be replaced.

I think the vast majority of us who fly 1/2a do so simply because it allows us to tinker with these small marvels of engineering and design and build the planes to put them in. When we are gone, there is no generation coming up behind us that wished for a plastic Cox PT-19 for Christmas or who suffered through the burnt and cut fingers learning to make them run.
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Old 01-13-2014, 08:37 PM
  #185  
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hllywdb-you're absolutely right-but occasionally great things happen that couldn't be forseen. The 'Lord of the Rings movie trilogy-as every one knows by now, was filmed in NZ in the late 90s and early 00s-that project resulted in huge amounts of work for blacksmiths, sword and knife makers, weavers, bespoke jewellers, craftsman joiners, sculptors and the like making props and costumes, arms, armour and general equipment-many of the trades-blacksmithing in particular were virtually extinct in NZ-and the movie project-which spanned nearly a decade gave unexpected dividends-and allowed those people to flourish. The tourism interest generated by the movie series allowed some of those same artisans to continue as boutique craftsmen, mainly catering to tourists-but also the ongoing NZ movie industry-then along came Avatar-and now the Hobbit series.
In a similar fashion, Sir Tim Wallis and his 'Warbirds over Wanaka' airshow really kicked off the NZ warbirds scene-and provided both employment and skills retention for airframe fitters, classical WW2 type big piston engine fitters and mechanics-all the sort of skills that had withered with the onset of the jet age and all metal aircraft. Sometimes the right person-in the right place at the right time-can be a catalyst for survival of the most unlikely skills. Without any doubt-Sir Peter Jackson and Sir Tim Wallis are in this category-though what they both started has developed a life and direction of its own and will survive without them. 30 years ago-if you'd placed an advert for: 'Aero engine mechanic, previous experience with Rolls Royce Merlin engines essential" you'd have gotten no applicants at all-(all those with the necessary experience would've been retired or dead)-now you'd expect to get at least a dozen applicants from NZ alone, let alone elsewhere. Down in the NZ deep south at Mandeville, near Gore in the SI there is a factory (fully licensed by DeHavilland-or whoever they are now British Aerospace?) building and restoring a variety of classic De Havilland aircraft from the 20s 30s and 40s(mainly the Moth variants) and they're booked up for years to come-in the early 80s this success couldn't have even been predicted ..

In our case-we do have a problem-who will replace the Doug Galbreaths, Bob Mattes and Bob Beecrofts? Doug I know is getting on-must be well into his 70s-I don't know the other two personally-but eyesight issues alone will eventually make them stop the engine work, let alone any other emergent health issues. Henry Nelson has retired-and his right hand man (a Kiwi by the way) Neil Lickfold, has returned to NZ (but shows no inclination to do any engine work. In Australia Jon Fletcher and David Owen continue to do sterling work-and in the UK there are half a dozen guys who will do anything from trick up your PAW to building you a complete replica of the most obscure engine you could ask for-but are ANY of them training or mentoring a successor? The concept of 'succession planning' seems completely unknown in this modelling environment.

I couldn't agree more about our generation being the last craftsmen-we have bred at least two generations of what I refer to as 'tactile illiterates'-people whom if you gave them a hammer wouldn't know which end to hold-let alone how to use it-and the only thing they'd be able to do successfully with it is drop it on their foot.....

ChrisM
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Last edited by ffkiwi; 01-13-2014 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 01-18-2014, 11:48 AM
  #186  
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On the subject of props - I spent some time de-flashing and shaping some 1/2A speed props last week, and it occurred to me how small and light the props are.

The prop here is an Eliminator E-3, which is way too high pitch for this thing, but there are others in his list like C-1 4.25 x 2.5, C-4 and C-5 4.625x3, C-6 4.5x3.25 etc.. Food for thought. Smaller hub than the combat props I have not much more than the Cox .020 4.5x2.

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Old 01-18-2014, 02:32 PM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by hllywdb View Post
I think the vast majority of us who fly 1/2a do so simply because it allows us to tinker with these small marvels of engineering and design and build the planes to put them in. When we are gone, there is no generation coming up behind us that wished for a plastic Cox PT-19 for Christmas or who suffered through the burnt and cut fingers learning to make them run.
Sadly, I believe you're entirely correct. We've talked at length at club meetings and at the LHS where many of us spend part of our Saturdays about the lack of interest in the "fiddley" parts of our hobby. Unfortunately, it's true across the board when it comes to the loss of craftsmen, regardless of the hobby or interest. At recent EAA flyins in Oshkosh, I would guess that the average age of folks restoring aircraft or having a true interest in learning the aspects of homebuilts is close to my age and I pack around a Medicare card!!
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Old 01-18-2014, 04:06 PM
  #188  
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It's no comfort to me but this is an ever changing world we live in.
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Old 01-20-2014, 06:00 AM
  #189  
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But in perspective, weren't most of us who tried a plastic Cox pt-19 flying the first ARFs?
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Old 01-20-2014, 10:22 AM
  #190  
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Absolutely

Originally Posted by hllywdb View Post
But in perspective, weren't most of us who tried a plastic Cox pt-19 flying the first ARFs?
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Old 01-20-2014, 07:33 PM
  #191  
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You have a point there hllywbd, that was my first plane by the way.
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Old 04-05-2014, 11:14 AM
  #192  
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OK, I've been busy the last couple of months with motorcycle stuff, bike week, a number of other trips etc... Finally getting back to stage 2 for the little GLH. I did send one of the motors to Bob Mattes and got it back a while ago. Ordered up some Merlin drop ins for it and finally got a chance to run it this week.

First I have to say Bob's work is excellent. He not only custom built the head, but shimmed the bottom and top of the cylinder to get the port timing correct. The backplate mount is a real nice piece of machine work as well. I had sent him a stock venturi as well as one I had opened up, which he chose to work with. He also added a brass thrust washer behind the drive plate to reduce wear when using an electric starter and included a nice, larger spinner that is machined to fit inside the hole in the APC props, eliminating the need for bushings or fuel line to take up the slack. As a last touch he installed a machined ring over the plastic where the venturi bolts on to keep it from splitting. He then ran the motor with an APC 4.2X2 and sent me the specs both with the Merlin head and the Nelson. He recorded 25600 on 40% and said expect 2k more with 60%. Not bad.

So the first thing I did was enlarge the prop slightly to fit the spinner. The first run on the bench with a 4X2.75 gave me a bit over 22k. I then ran one I had trimmed another 1/4 inch from BUT also remounted the engine to the stand as I had noticed some vibration just mounting it with 2 small wood screws. A tip for anyone using the TD 020 motors- make sure your firewall is perfectly flat and use BOLTS, not screws. This I had done on the motor currently on the plane and it makes all the difference in the world. The next run gave me 26900 on the bench using just 35%! And this is on a motor setup to run 40-65%. I am also using little red caps for bladders as Bob recomended and can say they give very consistant runs. Next step will be mounting on the plane and finding space for the bladder.
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Old 04-05-2014, 01:58 PM
  #193  
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Got a chance to mount the motor. I had Bob install the large mount that uses the same bolt pattern as the stock tank, just has quite a few more mounting holes. He also makes a smaller one that matches the Cox plastic backplate. As my battery is located in the main compartment with nothing but the reciever up front, there was room enough for the bladder and nothing to cut into the bladder.

Once installed, even though the engine is slightly shorter than the tank mounted one, between the weight of the backplate and the spinner, getting the CG right only took shifting the battery back about 1/8 inch. The mount is nice and solid and with any luck I might get a chance to try it tomorrow. I am hoping it will not unload as much in the air as the 1st one as that would put me over 30k which is where we start loosing cranks. I have two more props that are just a shade longer that I can try as well.


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Old 04-05-2014, 02:15 PM
  #194  
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And the crowd chants vid vid = P
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Old 04-05-2014, 03:06 PM
  #195  
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I did a double take when I recenty saw an E-flite prop (now hear me out) hanging on a rack that said 3.73 x 3, and it had a cute little hub that was tailor made for an .020. Now we know that prop is no good for the .020, but I trimmed it down to 3.5" dia and wet sanded here and there to clean up the edges. Now, darned if it doesn't look like it would make a killer master for a FG .020 pylon/blistering speed prop.

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Old 04-05-2014, 03:29 PM
  #196  
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The sheer size, range, and scale of production of electric stuff means there will be more and more useful little bits like this that can be adapted for our use.....there was a bit of a controversy here (NZ) a few years back when some of the 1/2A Texaco flyers started using electric 'slo flier' type props on Cox Texacos with very beneficial results......and predictably some people put up remits for rule changes banning them---fortunately wiser heads prevailed-but 1/2A Texaco seems to be being eclipsed (here and definitely in the UK) by the Tomboy Duration class....

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Old 04-05-2014, 03:41 PM
  #197  
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Wow..!
What a little jewel..!
I'll bet that 3.7 x 3 prop is worth trying, too.
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Old 04-05-2014, 04:05 PM
  #198  
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It shouldn't be too much work to pull a mold from it, once someone gets around to it of course.

I didn't know this until I tried recently, but a laser cutter does a bang up job cutting fiberglass cloth, and not only that if you get the settings right, it nicely "sizes" the edges too and the bits don't fray. So slicing out accurate front/back faces to have some uni in-between to mold little devils like this should be easy. They don't need to be made of titanium, just not of floppy plastic.
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Old 04-05-2014, 04:55 PM
  #199  
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From my experience with the 2.75 props, I think 3.7 is not quite going to get much past 25K with 3 inches of pitch. You start to get into a trade off situation where you need a larger venturi to get into the higher rpms, which in turn needs a bit smaller diameter/load to unload and go. Can't hurt to try though as it's pretty close to the unload point. I had to get my tips much thinner than that too.
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Old 04-05-2014, 05:40 PM
  #200  
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This prop is really thin. I have it trimmed to 3.5x3, I didn't like the quality at the tip.
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