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Cox medalion .049 problems

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Old 06-28-2015, 03:46 PM
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jayd3
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Default Cox medalion .049 problems

I bought this engine new in the mid 1990's . It never wanted to start,and got used only a few times I abandon it for 20 + years then got it out the other day and put a TD high compression head on it to see if that would help, well I did get it started but then I could not get it restarted. I hear the glow plug sizzling and it will hit and run on a prime sometimes but can't get it running again even leaving the piston down so plug can burn clean etc. I'm just done with this what maybe a lemon ? same becuse when it ran last it ran really nice on a Grish tornado 6 x 3 but f I can't start it no fun

I'm ready to sell it on Ebay unless some one has a cure.

Thanks
jay
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Old 06-28-2015, 06:17 PM
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Sure buy one of those cheap 12v 1/2A starters Sullivan, Their Hornet starter works great and will start up even a stubborn Cub engine.
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Old 06-29-2015, 06:34 AM
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Sounds like a fuel delivery problem. Assuming you have good compression, proceed as follows.

First check to be sure the engine is drawing fuel by choking while pulling the prop through. Then put a piece of fuel tubing over the fuel nipple on the engine, blow through the tube while opening and closing the needle valve. Make sure you can blow through easily when open and progressively more difficult as you close the valve and not at all when closed. Finally there is a fair chance that the plastic venturi housing is cracked, allowing air to leak. You will need to remove the part and inspect with a BRIGHT light AND magnifying glass. Any crack you find anywhere is a problem. Cracks are common due to excessive tightening when installing the housing. While you have the housing off check to be sure you have the proper medallion crank, which should have a round hole drilled into it as the gas passage, TD's had a square hole. By the way, make sure the hole in the needle valve is NOT visible when looking through the intake, it should be on the bottom and a little aft of center as I recall. Replacement venturi housings are available, replacement needle valves not so much.
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Old 06-29-2015, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Pond Skipper View Post
Sure buy one of those cheap 12v 1/2A starters Sullivan, Their Hornet starter works great and will start up even a stubborn Cub engine.
Got one this year after I figured out I didn't have a suitable adapter to jury rig a starter from an old ferrite motor and that they were pretty cheap to buy. With a piece of 1/2" rubber fuel hose shoved in the small end of the silicone cup, it will start .15's with a bare nut and washer on the shaft. It Really does it on a 4S pack. 3S better for smaller engines.
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Old 07-13-2015, 12:39 PM
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Jay, try to give us a little more info on your situation. What type of fuel are you using (% nitro?) and how many head shims do you have under the glow head? While the medallion is a pretty stable engine, they do recommend your fuel tank pickup be at the same level as the needle valve. If it pops and runs for just a second or two, try opening up the needle valve 1/4-1/2 a turn and try again. A lot of people recommend putting a short piece of fuel line over the needle valve to avoid air leaks.
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Old 07-16-2015, 05:21 PM
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Medallions are normally less temperamental than TD's so something sounds amiss here! The guys above have already provided good suggestions to follow in checking things. I would expand on the following areas to check:

(1) carb housing......plastics do not necessarily age well-and if its been sitting around a long time the plastic may have embrittled or distorted. Check the carb moulding very carefully for both cracks and distortion. If the collet at the front is a bit too tight, then it may have distorted the plastic at the rear-and it may not seat properly on the crankcase. Equally likely if too tight, the plastic may have developed a crack-which will also let in air and mess things up. If too loose this should be obviously-you shouldn't be able to move the collet with your bare fingers!
(2) head.....you have got a copper gasket in there I hope-if not then that could be the start of your problems! With a TD head I would expect you'd need three or four gaskets for easy starting (the number depends on your fuel-more particularly the % nitro content of it)
(3) NVA...as noted above the jet hole should point downwards-and not be visible at all when you look down into the venturi. Since the Medallion carb assembly has a moulded hexagonal socket to take the end of the spraybar this should not be an issue if you have to reorient it-though of course you'll have to remove the C-clip from the other side of the spraybar before you can push it out far enough to rotate the hex end to a new orientation and reseat again in the hex socket in the plastic. The needle can leak-but not usually enough to prevent running-again as noted above if you suspect air getting around the needle a short piece (~1/2" long) of silicone fuel line can fit over the stub end of the spraybar and the needle screwed back in. You'll have to remove the friction spring from the needle if you use this approach (the silicone fuel tube acts both as an air seal and also a friction device-you may have to adjust the length of the tubing slightly by trial and error to get the right amount of friction)
(4) Fuel....I hope you're not using car fuel,,,,but something reputable for aero engine use. Something with at least 20% lube content and 10-15% nitro should be ideal
(5) Prop? something in the range 6x2-6x4 (nothing bigger)
(6) Needle setting-is it at least 5 turns open for starting? And is the spraybay free from any dirt or blockage? [check by blowing through a piece of fuel line and gradually opening the needle-you should hear a definite hiss of air coming out the jet hole once the needle is about a turn or more open-and this hiss should get louder the more you open the needle whilst still blowing into the fuel line
(7) Your glowhead is still working? Check by removing it from the engine and powering up-you want a bright orange glow-not dull red (voltage too low)....and not yellow (voltage too high) Preferably check this indoors or in shade as bright sunlight can make the true colour hard to see
(8) Check your fuel tank-lines and fittings for blockage or airleaks-and the overall tank position height in relation to the spraybar.

Since you attempted to run it in the past I think it quite likely that you'll find a blockage somewhere from old fuel residue.....and i hope you're not trying to run it on fuel that's 20+ years old......

ChrisM
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Old 07-17-2015, 04:16 PM
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Regards (1) above - it's pretty common, about 50% of my older examples have needed repair. But I bet this is something more fundamental. His is only from the '90's, probably not plastic disease.
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Old 07-17-2015, 04:25 PM
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Hard to say MJD-he hasn't really given us a lot to go on. In terms of plastic deterioration-a lot I would suggest-depends on how the engine has been stored since he first ran it in the 90s. In a drawer, in the dark-fine, its probably nothing worse than gummy oil residue. On a mantelpiece, shelf or windowsill-exposed to sunlight and artificial light-different story altogether.....
And secondly he didn't say it was made then only that he bought it new back then-it might have been sitting in the shop or dealers for years. Anyway distortion/cracking of the carb housing is only one of a number of possibilities for his problem....

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Old 07-17-2015, 09:08 PM
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I'm with you... many things it could be.

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Old 07-19-2015, 02:01 PM
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Thank You for such a good and complete response.
I actually did have it running and it ran very well but restarting was so difficult I gave up and sold it on ebay, But I found another one to try out all your stuff on. and while in the past lower compression did not help which is why I went to the TD head I will investigate that again along with the other things before I give up on my last medalion .
as for fuel it is old Byron's 35% wit plenty of castor and has been stored with no air in the container so I doubt it's much of a factor but could be. Prop is as stated a Grish tornado 6 x 3 had no problem getting fuel draw and it ran more consistent than most cox engines once running, I do use the fuel tubing over NV to seal out air even use anaerobic sealer on heads some times, you can't use shellac based sealer because fuel will dissolve it.and silcone is to thick.
Thanks again
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Old 07-19-2015, 05:05 PM
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I'm leaning towards your fuel being the problem-35% is very high nitro to be using on a Medallion-and you've exacerbated the situation by using a high compression head. Does the engine 'crack' and 'snap' when you flick it over when attempting starting? Yes? Then thats a certain indication of too much nitro or too much compression (or likely both in this situation)......you've said the fuel is OK-but if its adsorbed water over the years that too won't help.
Even TD's get balky if over compressed or too much nitro is used. Try adding two more gaskets under the TD head and see if it behaves itself better. In extreme cases up to 5 can be used-but that IS an extreme case. If it improves with several more gaskets under the head then its telling you it WAS overcompressed initially and you need to either revert to a standard 315 glowhead or lower the nitro content. Personally I would consider 25% nitro about the most i'd run in a Medallion-and even that is being generous. If you want to continue using the TD head then you still need to lower the nitro a bit-either by buying fresh fuel-or blending your 35% with straight fuel. There are spreadsheets available on the Net that allow you to make up any mix you like starting two existing nitro level fuels.....
I own about 9 or 10 TDs 049s-and 3 or 4 Medallions-so I have plenty of experience with these engines going back 30 years or more-several of my TDs are running standard 315 heads rather than the normal TD 1702 simply because they run better that way. It all comes down to production tolerances and how they randomly stack up-some engines are bang on, run the TD head with one gasket and never a word of complaint, some need three gaskets, some are undercompressed and need an aftermarket higher compression head to deliver. Personally I value quick starting and ease of handling far more than high power output....

ChrisM
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Old 07-23-2015, 02:04 PM
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Thanks Chris
It appears I have wrong Ideal about the role of compression: My thinking is formed from the fact that full sized auto and truck diesel engines have starting trouble when compression is to low this is particularly a problem when the ambient temp. is cold. or with weak glow plugs, full sized glow plugs simply heat the cylinder and do nothing after power is removed.
It is possible the original medallion head was fine or even to high compression from what you are telling me. I will try a normal head and some shims which I may have I have either the head shims or crank case shims can't remember which. wish you were not so far away I would like to trade a very nice clean TD .09 for a TD .051 or .049 I have no use for the .09 and would like an .051 for my collection.
I have another friend In NZ Chris Sherlock
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Old 07-26-2015, 01:09 PM
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On glowplug engines the timing is fixed (essentially) but determined largely by the compression ratio, the head shape and the nature of the glowplug (and the plug in turn has four independent variables!)-and the fuel components itself. The optimum timing and running characteristics will be quite specific for a particular fuel (and for the purposes of 1/2A-and assuming adequate lube content-it is the % nitro that has the most significant effect). The various aspects of the plug can be summarised as 'plug heat' [which is actually a bit of a misnomer-but a carry over from the days of ignition engines and full size spark plugs) but simplifying things-the more nitro you have in your fuel, the 'cooler' the plug and the lower compression required. Too hot a plug or too high compression leads to preignition (because the collective effect is to advance the timing)-this is manifested in reality by the engine being difficult to start-and/or running with a 'crackle' and being hard (or even impossible) to get a clean peaked needle setting on. The other extreme is equally possible-too low and too cold-also difficult to start-and may not sustain running. If it dies or the revs drop when the plug lead is removed-definitely indicative of a 'too cold' situation. (it could also just mean a dodgy plug!)
On the serious side-AMA speed for example, people would set up their engines for a specific fuel and plug-this would entail a head machined for 'that' specific fuel-a new plug each run-and the head shimming carefully optimised-and even then they would have to alter the head clearance minutely depending on the weather on the day (or alter the nitro content of the fuel slightly up or down for the weather-which achieves the same result)-in other words that engine was set up with every aspect of its performance optimised for a specific set of conditions-and an alteration in any of those would result in sub optimal running.
Now obviously a Medallion 049 is pretty much the opposite-a sport motor, ported and timed for general purpose use and easy handling-but limited by production tolerances and the head geometry. With Coxes you have no choice in plug heat-you get the standard Cox head with the standard Cox element-in either low compression (#325) or high compression versions (#1702)-so the only variables you have to play with are the nitro % and the number of head shims. In your case running 35% nitro with a high compression head almost cetainly resulted in an 'overcompressed' engine-and the addition of a couple more head gaskets might well have improved things by lowering the compression. If it didn't have much effect then you might have to revert to the low compression head as well. The effect is well demonstrated in our model diesels-where for a given load, on a given fuel, the engine will run cleanly and smoothly only at the right compression setting-too little and the engine runs with a misfire (because the ignition is effectively retarded) and too much and the engine runs 'hard'-and sounds laboured -the difference between the two settings may well be only half a turn on the compression screw-in real terms a few thousanths of an inch-the equivalent of a couple of head shims....!

ChrisM
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Old 08-02-2015, 08:25 AM
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I so appreciate your explanations I have a good understanding of what you are saying what mystifies me is that the engine ran so smoothly and well after finally getting it started: no crackling , no surging or any of the usual indications of some problem. well on to another I have her and the stash of other engines I finally recovered from storage so your information has not been wasted at all any interest in my proposed swap of an TD 09 for a .051?

There are other makers of glow heads and adapters to use standard 1/4" -32 thread glow plugs on cox engines, Back in the day Glo Bee had a great reputation.
This brings me to a question : why do all the post in 1/2 A forms recommend using a hot glow plug when we are using high nitro fuel ? the cox fuel is 25 - 35 % and I have not seen any recommend less than 20% nitro though a few have said they can make a particular engine run on 15% .
Another question is with synthetic lubricants being superior in most respects that I know of why not run synthetic with a bit of castor added ?


Again Thanks
Jayd

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Old 08-02-2015, 01:12 PM
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I'm not sure the posts DO recommend the use of hot plugs for high nitro-the principle of hot vs cool for low and high nitro fuels has been long established for decades. Small engines are at a thermodynamic disadvantage compared to large ones in that their surface;volume ratio is high and so they lose heat faster than large ones-this is the basic reason why the smaller engines-049s and smaller require higher nitro levels just for normal running-and the smaller you go the higher the nitro (within limits)-eg a Babe Bee will run on 10% or 15%, a Pee Wee will be less than happy on this and a TD .010 will be reluctant to run at all-up the nitro to 25% or 30% and they'll all sing-but 25% is a bit of overkill for a sport 049.
Conversely this same adverse surface:volume ratio is why you rarely hear of 1/2A engines having cooling problems in use-unlike larger R/C engines or cowled C/L ones...

GloBees were good-but required a ton of power to drive them-at least 2V-which would fry a normal cox head if you forgot what was installed. The use of normal plugs in a Cox head adapter ALWAYS results in a significant loss of power-there's no escaping it-and for several reasons. The use of clamped inserts and Nelson plugs is less problematic-and some of these exceed the performance of the standard head.

The achilles heel of Cox engines is the ball and socket little end-and this is probably the only real reason why castor is preferred-its film strength is unequalled in this role-which is an extreme loading from a lubrication point of view-in direct contact with the piston crown-so the hottest part of the engine, largely shielded from the incoming cool fuel mixture due to the retaining cup, and subjected to rapid load reversals every cycle-if the Cox used a normal gudgeon pin it would be quite happy on all synthetic. Most commercial 1/2A fuels ARE synthetic with a bit of castor......

ChrisM
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Old 08-03-2015, 04:35 PM
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Yes now O remember: Glow Bee's needed 2 to 3 volts and strong fresh batteries, and as you say totally incompatible with most others .
I wonder why adapters to standard glow plugs cause loss of power ? perhaps the standard glow plug has to much surface area and cools to quickly or has to much volume inside?
These questions about volume bring me to the though of taking a head and making it compression tunable by drilling through the thickest part and placing a fine threaded screw in so volume compression could be fine tuned on the fly, with today's flexible anaerobic sealants this could be done with no loss past the treads.Though usually not adjustable this sort of compression release is somewhat common on high compression two cycle engines for easier starting.
And yes that ball and socket wrist pin takes quite a beating . they get to running poorly when it gets loose, I've reset a few over the years with that special tool.
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Old 08-03-2015, 04:47 PM
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I wonder if the new Glowbees are 2 volts like the old ones. Merlin (Al Kelly ) is making them now. He mentioned that the cool standard plugs worked best not because they were cool, but because the hole drilled for the element was smaller giving a tighter combustion chamber. I would guess that ideally, a Glowbee coil with a tapered seal like the Turbo or Nelson plug may be the best for the small motors. Our local guy here made an adjustable compression head with a Norvel. Seems interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pN6-rgXEFk
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Old 08-03-2015, 05:14 PM
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Jayd3-you are starting to think on the issue-which is good-and more or less on the right track.......as I alluded to above in passing-there are multiple variables associated with plugs-firstly-when you replace a Cox head with a glowplug adapter you altered the head shape and increase the volume-so effectively lowering compression-how much-depends on the nature of the adapter and the plug-depending on whether it is a long short or medium reach plug-then how it seats in relation to the head surface-so you can see several variables there.....before we even look at the plug itself! Now the plug-ignoring 'reach' you have the following variables-all of which interact to a degree-but are independent:
Plug element-
(i)-size of wire,
(ii)-composition of wire,
(iii)-number of turns,
(iv)-shape of element [not all are a coil !]
(v)-relative location of coil within plug cavity-flush, protruding or recessed

Plug cavity-the free volume in the recess that the element sits in-

All of the above factors interact-and collectively determine the plug 'heat'-but there is no agreed standard internationally, so brand to brand there is enormous variation. So before you even start there are at least 7 variables-and you can add head shape to that as well! [by head shape I mean the internal profile-including any refinements such as squish bands-making 8-plus the head clearance-9. How much testing would you need to do to optimise something with 9 variables? To optimise would require an enormous amount of testing (and cost-if you were going to purchase a big range of plugs to test)-which is why no one has done it. At best people find a plug that 'works'.....in other words one that is not too bad-and live with an 'acceptable' power loss-which could be as much as 3000rpm in the worst case [most people would not be happy with this much and experiment a bit more]-if you could achieve a loss of only 1000rpm from the OEM Cox head by using a standard plug adaptor, -you would be doing very well indeed. [which is why people who can't take the rpm loss with a plug will use a Nelson head-and perhaps gain 1500rpm with careful shimming (and even here you have 3 plugs and 2 inserts available)

FWIW-my personal opinion is that the best combination using a standard glowplug adaptor is likely to be using a globee style plug-as this minimises the 'dead' volume loss-by having none(!)-and using a thread locker on the plug threads. Merlin Plugs do the flat Globee style element plugs (#2016 and 2016B) in hot and medium heats. [there is also the possibility of using a turbo plug-but AFAIK no one is currently offering these in a Cox 049 version. (I'm not sure if a Norvel turbo adaptor would fit....it might!)] Again personally I wouldn't touch a standard plug adaptor with a barge pole-I have an adequate number of Nelson heads for my 049s

I haven't touched on the fuel vs head aspects-as the story is still incomplete-and insufficient data exists to extrapolate-but where it is (in the .15 size)-20+ years ago F1C engines used glow heads derived from the Cox TD15 back in the mid 60s (ie before Rossi 15s were developed) when it was found the ST G15 went like the bees knees with a glowhead insert machined down from the TD or Spl 15 -these had a trumpet shaped head profile-and since then every F1C engine has used this style of head until Nelson plugs arrived. [ie the Rossi, AD OPS and Cox Conquest 15s and the various russian ones] The Nelson came out in the 80s IIRC...When the 'modern' generation of C/L combat motors arrived the so called 'double bubble' Nelson head was considered the best......except that combat fuel is 10% nitro, FAI F1C fuel is 0%-the trumpet heads don't work very well on 10%.....and the double bubble heads don't run properly on FAI.....and that's only the difference between 0-10% nitro-which most people would consider a fairly 'tame' fuel.........

ChrisM
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Old 08-03-2015, 07:49 PM
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Actually Merlin carries a nice Cox style plug that needs no conversion for the .049 size anyway. They are only around $5 too.
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Old 08-03-2015, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by aspeed View Post
Actually Merlin carries a nice Cox style plug that needs no conversion for the .049 size anyway. They are only around $5 too.

True-but we were specifically discussing the adaptor heads which take normal 1/4-32 glowplugs....no one is claiming these are the ideal or best solution.....

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