SERCEFLYER

Hey, I heard that David Redden was no longer working at Cox/Estes. Should we be worried? I like everyone on this forum have been thrilled about the special deals on the SureStarts, etc.

But, and this is a big BUT: do you guys get the feeling that Cox/Estes is simply cleaning house and giving up on the glow engine market?

Is there anything that hobbyists can do? I wish Cox could pull a Harley-Davidson-- HD was almost out of business back 20-30 years ago. But a team of enthusiasts bought the company, and they stopped competing with Japanese bikes. They stuck with what they do best: the classic/nostalgia market in motorcycles. And, they've done really well.

I wish Cox could do the same.

SF

propbuster

My Feedback: (1)

It could be a possibility that Cox is trimming down on the glow market. They have quite a few electric planes out there now. But there's still a ton of Cox glow styff out there some still NOS. Just look on Ebay. As a hobbist and fan of Cox, I don't think there's much we can do. I'd love to see them come out with the old two and three channel foam RC models from the seventy's again, like the Skylane and such! I seriously doubt that's ever going to happen, with such interest in the electrics now days. Cox, like any company, is going to follow the market to make money.

Tim Wiltse-RCU

I feel Cox is on the way out with glow. Dave said himself that they cleaned out the "backroom" and that is what all the parts were on the new Cox site. Just look at the product line up nothing new engine wise.

LAter,
Tim

rrragmanliam

My Feedback: (1)

Yep they'r done. It's only a matter of time and that's a shame. So many of us started with these engines. It's a good thing so many were produced, it should keep us going for a long time. Still some of the most sought after engines are getting scarce. Look at what a TD.020 is going for. If you see a good deal on one on the bay GO FOR IT! Don't ask any questions from those in the know as they might let the cat out of the bag and then your screwed.


Darren

propbuster

My Feedback: (1)

When it comes to Cox stuff on Ebay, I always wonder if I'm bidding against one of my buddies from this forum! So, for future reference, my Ebay name is the same as on this forum

subarubrat

My Feedback: (1)

Well, Atari relesed the flashback1, based on the nintendo on a chip, crappy emulated games and hardware was not compatable with legacy Atari gear. They swore it was a money maker to pay the bills of coming back to life as Atari and that future products using 2600 hardware would emerge. They actually did it. For $30, $10 less than the flashback1, they released the flashback 2 last month and it is 2600 hardware compatable, plays the original carts with a cart slot added to it, and comes with some great prototype and homebrew games. Not only that, the new joysticks are as well made as the originals and one of the joysticks alone is worth the purchase price. Maybe they have the same vision and goals at Cox. KISS did go back to the makeup, Atari did release a new 2600, Cox might rise again. Lets hope.

mclintock

My Feedback: (3)

I wonder if we'd buy updated cox engines if they were made in china instead of the us. A muffled throttled sure start like thing as a drop in for gws whatever drive or 400 motor might be something to consider.. that cost less than 30 dollars.. oh wait I just described an ap wasp...

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Let's do a quick market analysis:

Look in your "COX box". How many engines do you have? (10 unused) How many new engines would you buy over the next year? (none) Now do a search for "COX 049"on ebay. (114 items) Can you say, "flooded market"! The ONLY way to make money off the Cox engine line is to come up with something new. Don't see it happening.

flyinrog

My Feedback: (1)

I thought we were all under the ass/u/me-ption that cox was going the way of .40 trainers and electric just like the market demands.....and that us 1/2er's are just a pimple on their butts...Rog

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Rog, that's about as eloquent as I've heard it said! A pimple!!! I'm still laughing![sm=thumbup.gif]

ps. I lied. I think I'm going to get an .09.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

The back bone of their business has always been to sell to the Christmas morning, or birthday present shopper. They made a living selling complete packages that were just within the dollar range for a 12 year olds' gift. Times have changed, Little League batters go up to home plate dressed up like hockey goalies, they even have "courtesy runners" if the kid is too fat to run. Pop Warner football is just about completely dead in some areas, you almost never see a group of kids playing any kind of team sport on the playgrounds after school, or even just walking to and from school. My point is, what does COX, or any other out door toy company have any more that would appeal to the average latch key, couch potatoe kid? The idea of flipping a switch on some RTF electric plane and watching it flub around doesn't seem as sure of a bet for PUGSLEYs' entertainment dollar as just getting him another video game.

flyinrog

My Feedback: (1)

Aint it the truth CP! I have a friend who has two girls, once they were past ten years old they didnt ride bikes or play outside anymore,,probably a good thing I grew up when I did as I may well have been the same way,,too many things to explore outside when I was a kid!!...Rog

SERCEFLYER

You guys are making me sad and nostalgic. In the 70's, I remember my dad getting home from work around 5pm, and we usually had some time before dinner to build a model, or fly a stick-and-tissue rubber burner-- or launch some rockets. It was about being outside on a nice summer evening and having a great time together. Sad to say it, but that world is gone... maybe that's why a lot of us can't seem to let go of these little Cox engines: good memories!

SF

Laser Arts

SF,

I have been thinking about Estes/Cox ... I worked there from '96 to '99 and again from Jan '03 to Apr '04. In my own opinion, they won't make a comeback. I really think that's too bad because they have had some very talented people over the years, and Mike Fritz, who is still there heading up Cox as far as I know, is a great guy and knows where to take it. I just don't see Mike doing it by himself with the atmosphere at Estes.

I mean for blanks sake, in the last 2 years, Mike Prat quit, they hired Doug Binder and Jeff Kumpf, I quit, they fired Jeff Kumpf (who always dreamed of working there and had his dreams turn into a nightmare from the start), they hired Mike Prat again, Dave Reden came on board, a 10 year or so vet of the art dept. quit, his repacement was gone within about a week, they fired Pratt, Dave Redden and his wife(?) quit, and Doug Binder quit. (I'm sure there's more I don't know about) Now from the art dept. guy to the Doug quitting was a bout 2 weeks. I don't believe they have anyone on staff now that could handle designing flying products, for either mass market or for hobby. I personally think they're screwed. I know 2 guys they've approached for a design position ... luckily, they have heard what it's like there and wouldn't do it.

I'm prety sure the guys who came over from Cox were all gone in about a year. Why such the turnaround? Well, it's a absolutely horid place to work, unless you like 60-80 hour weeks, being verbally abused and insulted regularly, managers that stabs you in the back and outright lie to save their rumps, watching them break employment laws regularly and consistently, sending competitor kits to China to be copied as ARF's (I haven't seen them in adds yet, but when I do, watch out), did I mention a highly abusive work environment? Some try to hang on because it pays well (until you figure out your true "hourly" rate), but it gets to them in the end.

They have had some great people working there, but they wear them down to paper thin until they have no energy to be creative, are very medicated to keep from breaking, and barely able to think straight. Ugh, I could rant for days on Estes/Cox, and so could any one else who's worked there. It's funny and sad when a bunch of us get together and talk about it ... nobody is sad about no longer working there.

Now, as Barry (El Presidente of Estes) and a few others there do read these forrums, I'll have to make sure I leave a disclaimer here ... these are my personal opinions and stated from my own experiences and talking with others who share(d) those same experiences. I am NOT a represenative of Estes/Cox. Estes/Cox are registered trademarks of Centuri Corp. I did not sign non-disclosure act when I came back to work for Estes/Cox and am not sharing any confidential information anyway. No animals were killed in the writing of this message. If anyone thinks I'm an arse for posting this, please let me know, and I'll refrain from anything like it in the future, but I thought people would like the insight ...

Brian

Clean

As a total outsider Brian, many of us have known that Estes has had their headed planted firmly up past the small intestine for years. That they have anything produced ANYTHING is a small miracle. Usually, like their HyperViper, they take a great idea and trash it up making it a toy. When you get an engine that has 1/8 play in the ball socket, that speaks volumes to quality control. But we got that free with a cheap glowplug anyways.

The good old days, man what I'd give for the good old days. Course talking to my old man, they weren't so good either with bigger mouths to feed, shoes to buy, a job that just didn't get any pay raises, you know, all the things I lament about now!

flyinrog

My Feedback: (1)

That is a shame, but not too hard to understand ,Estes is part of the big game and like CP said ,basically what ever is new and hot or trusted and a good repeat seller IS the market so they have gone the way of the $69.99 .40 ARF trainer and the foamy electrics... that is according to their 3 page add in FlyRC...I doubt that without the Cox/Estes name they couldnt/wouldnt be able to bring these planes to market...havent there been some Cox .40's on the bay? must be something in the works......Sorry to hear about Dave and the rest loosing their jobs he was pretty positive about turning things around....Rog

Tim Wiltse-RCU

Rog,


The Cox .40's you saw were prototypes from long ago!

Later,
Tim

flyinrog

My Feedback: (1)

Oh, ok didnt know that, but those .40 ARF trainers arent from long ago and if they have the molds and the machinery why not make the .40's to go in them?? I thought maybe they might be early release engines....Rog

Tim Wiltse-RCU

Rog,

I believe those Cox .40's are from the late 60's early 70's. I know those new Cox .40 sized ARF's are a joke to me. I mean here is a company that built it's life on 1/2a and now all they can make is cloned .40 sized ARF's just like 1,000 other company's make. It's so sad. I know that 1/2a is a different, non-mainstream market but gees.... with todays CNC machines it's so easy to make metal parts. How about a modern RR-1 rear drum engine.....nope they are to busy making crappy electric crap. And for the latest Cox plane the HyperViper.....what a great idea and it's really is a nice looking plane. Look around the internet and you will find post after post of guys mounting Norvel's into them because the engine that came with them were junk,plus the fuel tanks didn't work in them....it's just sad. LeRoy is rolling in his grave looking at these monkeys that run Cox now.

Later,
Tim

SERCEFLYER

Brian (Laser Arts),

Sorry to hear about all those terrible experiences. I guess the best we could hope for is for a really rich Cox enthusiast to buy up some of the tooling and pull a Harley-Davidson on the company. See above post if you don't get what I mean about "pulling a Harley-Davidson."

Any takers??

SF

Tim Wiltse-RCU

SF,

What tooling? The engines either are or can almost be made on just a simple screw machine! Take a .049 sized spinner for example I bet they can come off a screw machine at 1 part every 15 seconds or faster. You have three tool bits, 1 form tool, 1 to hollow out the bottom and the cut off tool ok so there is a drill too for the center hole. It's not a matter of needing the casting molds or anything to make a Cox 1/2a engine. With todays multi spindle Swiss machines it would me sick to see how fast one is made. I had heard once (maybe lazer Arts can add to this) that a complete years worth of engines are made in a few weeks time. Heck most likey faster today since no one is looking at whats coming out the finished end i.e. sloppy rod sockets and crankcases filled with swarf!!!
Will Cox ever make a modern style 1/2a engine complete with throttle and muffler..nope I would bet my life on it that they won't and it's to bad. All we can do is take what we can get till it's gone. Hey a Norvel is real cheap($27.00 when I first heard of them) and run real well. I ask myself from time to time why do I even mess with cox reedies....I guess it's because it reminds me of when I was little, flying my PT-19 with my best friend. It reminds me of the time in my life when things were simple and I didn't have to worry about my job, making a house and car payment, putting food on the table for the kids and my wife(soon to be ex I guess). All I had to worry about was making sure I had a hot plug and a quart of Cox fuel in the red can. Now those were good times indeed!!!!!
So if I ever win the Power Ball Lotto I will be making a bar stock crankcased, Rear Intake(either drum or disk) engine complete with a real carb and muffler for the masses till then I guess it's Cox or Norvel's.

Later,
Tim

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Tim, you forgot the VA's! Cost less than the TD did and was MUCH,MUCH nicer.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

You are right on.
What all these harcore coxheads just don't want to accept is that Cox IS and ALWAYS WAS first and foremost a TOYMAKER. Leroy himself said so all the way back in the late Fifties, the TeeDees were loss leader prestige engines...win some contests, maybe sell some more ready-to-fly plastic P-40's. That's how it is. Notice when the hardcore RC guys(god bless them) took over, the company got in WORSE trouble?
I think Cox is like CBGB's. Just let it go already, let them slide away.

I spent the day flying 01s and 02s...let me tell you this...they ain't that great. And I love them, and have flown a ton of them, but they just are not that great. We love them because there is no real alternative. Show me a Norvel 02 and I'll GLADLY get rid of my fussy little TeeDees. I have a big cut on my finger and a smashed thumbnail from that STUPID needle valve right near the prop, and I spent more time tinkering and less time flying than just about ANY other type of engine...I'm not that misty-eyed over cox...frankly, their products were not that great.

EASYTIGER

My Feedback: (119)

1959. That's when the TeeDee01 was designed. That was FORTY SIX years ago. And what improvements over the years? NONE. Zippo. You sit on a design for FORTY SIX YEARS? Give me a break. You guys talk about the company losing direction and momentum? They have not had it for forty years. Seriously...when was their last REAL new product, one that was not cobbled together from other engines? The conquest 15, maybe, or the 074.

subarubrat

My Feedback: (1)

They did use those engines in a DYNASTY that ran from the mid 70's through the mid 80's. I remember going into stores and seeing a while isle of Cox stuff, everything from the VAN and shrike to the heli and Stuka CL planes. The Sears catalog was filled with some great ARFs using the QRC. Sure they were made by Kyosho but they were Cox products. I don't know the sales figures on those products, I would love to see them. Did the market just taper off and people stop buying them, or did Cox discontinue a profitable and solid product line in the hopes of becoming something else? Companies make some pretty stupid decisions for very bad reasons. When Jack Tramiel (founder of the Commodore 64 success) took over Atari they were approached by Nintendo to sell their NES as an Atari product because they thougth they could never compete against the Atari name. Jack waited 6 months to say NO of all things. Then when presented with the 7800 which is arguably a much more advanced system than the NES he threw it off his desk screaming that Atari is a computer company and not a game company. The finished the 7800 sat in the Elpaso warehouse for two years before they decided they needed the revenue and that they would ship it. By then NES had already buried them. Sometimes bad decisions can ruin a company that had no real reason to fail.

Anyone have Cox sales figures from that time period that they can post, broken down by product?