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Norvel Engine FAQ

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Old 01-08-2006, 03:26 PM
  #1
BMatthews
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Default Norvel Engine FAQ

This is a thread for discussing and providing links or writeups to all that is needed to understand and care for the Norvel engines. Specificallly the 049's, 061's and 074's. I welcome the old hands to provide links or place older quoted material here that you think will help out or write new matieral. For the folks asking questions this is the place if it's specifically engine related. If you don't find it here then it's about time someone asked.

I would like to see material related to....
[ul][*] Engine type identification. Pictures are needed.[*] Care and feeding. How to disassemble, clean, care for and reassemble the engines along with tricks.[*] Blueprinting or hopping up the engines. [*] Starting and running hints, propeller options, fuel choice, etc. In particular to breaking in which is so important for the Norvels.[*] A guide to what sort of model size and performance expectations the various sizes can be used with. From 6oz racers to 30oz powered gliders.[*] Anything else Norvel related that I missed.
[/ul]

As much as possible I encourage you guys to remember the fine stuff you wrote before and repost it either under your own name if you wrote it in the first place or as a quote attributed to the proper author. There's tons of fine stuff from the past that is often hard to find if you don't know the ideal search keywords to use. If and when you come across something then feel free to add it in and make this a great resource. I'd also welcome any new material and would ask that for some of the stuff that lots of pictures be taken to best illustrate the steps for those that have not worked much with the Cox products before.
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Old 01-08-2006, 05:56 PM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

Here are some photos:

One question that comes up is, "What is the difference between a Big Mig and an AME?"

The difference is in the cylinder. Big Migs are timed milder and have 5 intake ports in the cylinder. AMEs have 3 ports, but those three are larger and are timed for higher RPM. The Big Mig will be more forgiving and may pull a bit more prop and the AME has the potential to make more power at a higher RPM.

The cylinder on the left in each photo is from a Big Mig. The right cylinder is from an AME.
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Old 01-08-2006, 06:07 PM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

Another issue involves the different models of the Norvels (AMEs).

Here is a photo of the earliest AME (Zeus) I had (or the carcass of same I have stolen the needle assembly and head from this one). It had the aluminum / nickel plated cylinder, a oval, bath tub intake that was probably too large, and the case and crank was almost a 1/4" shorter than current AMEs.

The best running, strongest AME .049s I had for 1/2A CL Combat were built from these cases and cranks.
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Old 01-08-2006, 06:09 PM
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Larry Driskill
 
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

These photos show the lastest AME (RevLite black cylinder) along with the silver 'Zeus' AME. Note that the case on older engine, on the right, is shorter.
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Old 01-08-2006, 10:49 PM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

Bruce, I would understand entirely if you want to keep this thread pure [and delete my comments in the process], but I would like to have someone walk me through, step by step on how to get $50 worth of fun out of an AME. I have managed to get $50 worth of fun, but it took $150 worth of AMEs to get there!
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Old 01-09-2006, 02:16 AM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

CP, this is the whole idea here. Ask away and let the folks respond and it'll now be kept for posterity. Only if we see repeats will I edit the thread.
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Old 01-09-2006, 04:03 AM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

I've had no problems with the AMEs. Little higher idle and a little higher RPMs than the BigMigs.
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Old 01-09-2006, 04:06 AM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

Here are the Norvel break in instructions and the .061 manual.

Norvel FAQ http://www.norvel.com/faq.html
Norvel Tech Articles http://www.norvel.com/til.html
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Old 01-09-2006, 09:50 AM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

The first pic is of the AME Zeus. It has no muffler provisions, a regular plug, and an optional plastic intake restrictor to allow it to run with suction.

One confusion factor a few years ago was when Norvel switched plugs. The top one is the "Freedom" plug, currently used. The lower plug is its predecessor, which is a good performance plug. The freedom plug uses less power to lite it and will work OK on 1.2V. igniters. Note that the plugs use different heads to hold the plug in place. The new one will fit most boosters, the older one will not. Many had problems with whimpy boosters and thought it was an "engine" problem.

The older (pre Revlite) engines had the carb or venturi epoxied in place. The Revlite ones have them screwed in place, which allows one to switch between RC and CL/FF with the same engine, and replace the Carb or Venturi as necessary.

George
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Old 01-10-2006, 03:00 PM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

I raced the Norvel engines at our local 1/2 races many years ago. I modified the .049's and then the .061's to run 4.5x4.5 props at 29,000 to 31,000 rpm. I was wondering what others have learned about them as to performance. We ran 60% nitro with Doug Gailbreth heads and Nelson glow plugs.

Keith Baker
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Old 01-10-2006, 03:22 PM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

Well, I can tell a story about two of our friends. Flyswatter had an AME that wasn't turning up like it should and the case would get REALLY hot. He spoke to our own infamous Larry Driskill, and shipped him the engine. My grapevine understanding is that Larry chucked it up in his lathe and took some material out of the center of the crank using sandpaper. That bad boy turns UP now! Maybe since I've prodded their memories, one of 'em can give us details or correct me. I don't know how common this is, but it seems to me the same thing could be accomplished with a drill press if you are very, very, very careful?
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Old 01-10-2006, 06:54 PM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

ANYBody have any test records ,as to a prop size/rpm etc.I`m especially intrested in theBIG MIG 0.074" at the moment but the 0.049" + 0.061" would be nice to have in here too
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Old 01-10-2006, 07:10 PM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

No .074, but here is combatpigg's old bench press tests with various props and engines..

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_15...2Dmeter/tm.htm
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Old 01-10-2006, 07:58 PM
  #14
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

Here are a few different Norvels.

AME .049 - Pre-Revlite cylinder. Old style, glued in carb. No extension on needle. Press fit drive washer. C 1996
AME .061 - Pre-Revlite cylinder. Newer style bolted carb. Machined, notched drive washer. C 1998
BigMig .061 - Revlite cylinder. Newer style bolted carb. Cast, notched drive washer. C 2002
BigMig .074
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Old 01-10-2006, 08:03 PM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

Hi, in response to the post by GCB regarding the different glow plugs, I was wondering if there was any difference between the older plugs and the newer plugs apart from easier starting. i.e. Do the Freedom plugs produce more power?
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Old 01-10-2006, 08:04 PM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

Here you can see some of the things that have evolved. The old ABC cylinder is now Revlite. The head is now larger to match the larger fins. The carb has changed shape and is now bolted instead of glued. The needle now has an extension. The drive washer is different.
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Old 01-10-2006, 08:12 PM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

Here are some of the muffler changes on the .049s and .061s.
On the earlier AME the muffler just had a hole where it attached to the engine and was prone to rocking back and forth, giving a poor seal.
After that the muffler had a smaller hole in the stinger and the spring clip had the tips bent down, making it much easier to install and remove. The newer mufflers have a shoulder making a much better fit to the engine.
The latest muffler has a slightly different shape.
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Old 01-11-2006, 12:03 AM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

Carburetor and Venturi Air Leaks

NORVEL R/C and C/L engines originally shipped with the carb or venturi bodies glued to the crankcase. Once removed, they had to be reattached using some type of adhesive. Although the carb bodies are now retained with a screw in the more recent variations, they still ship with a sealer to block air leaks. This seal can be broken during a crash, extended usage or whenever the carb is removed. On some engines I’ve seen, the carb body/crankcase fit is rather loose and can be a source for air leaks. The O-rings provided by NORVEL are fairly small and some are of a rather hard composition rubber. Due to size or hardness, they may not provide the air-tight seal needed at the carb/crankcase juncture resulting in difficult needling or inconsistent runs. Attempts to tighten the retaining screw will have no effect on this fit and may only result in stripping the threads or breaking the screw.

One remedy is to cut donuts from a length of large silicon fuel tubing using a sharp Xacto or razor blade, being careful to keep the cuts as symmetrical as possible. The thickness of the donuts is strictly trial and error and you may want to cut several at one time. Remove the existing O-ring and pull your new silicon O-ring over the carb or venturi base – be sure it is not twisted or rolled and that it is oriented ID/OD as it was cut from the tubing. The silicon ring should be just thick enough so that it bulges slightly when the retaining screw is in place. If it doesn’t bulge, then it will not seal well enough. If the silicon ring is too thick, it may pop out of the groove formed by the carb body and crankcase opening, again allowing air in. The silicon tubing is resilient and will seal even though the carb body may have some movement.

A short piece of tubing inserted between the needle and needle valve nut will block possible leaks there – the tubing should either slip over the nut or fit tightly against it and cover about one third of the smooth tapered portion of the needle. If it extends too far over the needle, it will interfere with the needle spring.

Lastly, if the wire needle extension is not needed for a cowled engine, cutting it off and filing flush with the knurled portion will reduce suspended weight on the carb barrel. The wire extension will also tend to vibrate at certain engine RPMs increasing the barrel/carb body wear. File a notch in the knurled end to visually help with needle settings.
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Old 01-11-2006, 01:27 AM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

My perspective is that of AMA Gas free flight and sport R/C. Keep in mind that the standard for comparision when AME's started showing up was the Cox TD's or KK TD's. I don't recall what year (maybe 1992 or 93) but two assciatates had gotten early AME's. They came in a baggie with a letter/set of instructions. These had the bath tub venturee. I was envious but it was clear these were combat engines - all intake and no inherent fuel draw, had to use a bladder - ich. I was hanging with a couple of combat guys when one them mentioned a "Moscow Cheater" - oh brother, that did it. What they were were Russian engines - very exotic. They required bladder pressure. The next year an outfit calling themselves Northern Velocity (Norvel) was peddling them for about $28.00 apiece. I was game and bought two. They now came in a vaccum packed package. These engines were probably what I would call mkII's. They now had a round venturi that was epoxied in with the press-on screen. They came with a spring starter, a starter/prop driver, and a muffler. They also came with a short prop driver for finger flipping.

Using the spring starter was almost a disaster. The spring went harmonic when the engine came up to RPM, nearly killing the prop driver and spring and prop. It sucked the spring into the prop. Boy that was ugly. Also very dicy was the needle valve - very touchy.

It was clear though the engine had potential. The 0.049 used the short crank case. The 0.061 had about a 1/4" extra bearing area in front of the crank case.

I ordered an 0.061 and I aquired another 0.049 and an 0.061 at an auction for a couple of bucks. I could only guess that the unhappy prior owner was glad to dump them for $3.00 apiece. Bench running suggested that the engines preferred the Cox high compression head and 55 or 60% nitro and of course a pressure bladder tank. It was time to mount them up and fly.

Fourtunitly it was about this time that Norvel offered a pressure tap crankcase plug and a decent starter spring but the early cases were not drilled for the starter spring - this was do it yourself. KK offered a high compression head that took a Nelson glow plug. Rumor control had it that these were made by a guy named Doug Galbreath. I took a chance and ordered a KK head and two glow plugs. They ran at least as well as a Cox Hicomp head.

The engines were lively enough, about 24k for the 0.049 and about 25k for the 0.061. These RPM's were possible because APC came out with two new props at this time also. A 5.5-2 and a 6-2. There was no small intrest in 0.049's about that time because of the Baldwin and CS entries into the market. Both of which could come close to 30k. What these engines were not was cheap as in inexpensive. The Baldwin had design problems and the CS's need massive rework. I had already tried VA's. I had (and still have) a prototype (serial no. 20) and a production engine serial 134. The prototype was a winner - the production engine was a dog. They were ligh weight but you either used a starter to light them off (bending the con rod) or you finger flipped them.

So, I've encluded some pictures for your viewing pleasure, the first with the old logo on the right hand side of the engine resplendent with the expoy plug holding the needle valve gadget in the the second with the goodies encluded with the engine. Also note the change in logos - enjoy...

Regards - Steve B.
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Old 01-11-2006, 02:35 AM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

Now I tested just one propeller with my BigMig .074- APC 6,3 x 4 combat propeller http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LX1687&P=0
My engine not new, I fly about 1 gallon fuel with it. The test conditions are: air temperature -2 C; fuel - blend of 50/50% castor and synthetic oil; oil-methanole-nitromethane rate is 18-72-10 %; thrust about 500-550 grams; RPM 15600. Original glow plug was damaged, I use new glow head with McCoy 59 glowplug without any gaskets. All data with this glowplug.
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Old 01-11-2006, 11:36 AM
  #21
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

Anybody else have a prop combination for the 0.074".I kind of would like to know what to expect from a 6x4".or if I`m asking for trouble..I have a 7x4, that I could trim up, and go towards ,what Husky has for info.Out of curiosity,what`s the smallest prop anyone has used,with out over-revving???
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Old 01-11-2006, 12:43 PM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

A 6x4 is to small I would think for a Norvel .074. You can get a good Cox reedie to spin a 6x4 at 15,600rpm. I wolud think a 7x3 or 7x4 what ever you would run on an .10 sized engine. Just remember the .074 is not a racer.

LAter
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Old 01-11-2006, 02:34 PM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

hey Uncle Dave
I ran the norvel 074 with a MAS 6x4 three blade- looked sweet & ran 14k on 20/20powermaster IIR


---edit: Was going for a certain look on a twin, so went with the 3 blade
---
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Old 01-11-2006, 03:11 PM
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

IMO there is only one prop for the .074. A 7X3. I wish there was an 8X2.
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Old 01-12-2006, 06:27 AM
  #25
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Default RE: Norvel Engine FAQ

I fly with APC 6 x3; 6 x 4; 6,3 x 4 combat and 7 x3.
6 x4 propeller recommended by manufacturer (V.V. Novikov, designer of this engines), but it too speedy for me. I prefer 7 x 3 with maximal thrust ( RPM wiht new head and MC Coy 59 about 12700-12900). But I haven`t tachometer before, and nothing say about RPM. Another problem - I broke all my 7 x 3 and 6,3 x 4. I can test just 6 x 3 and 6 x 4 now. When I rebuild Hiperion CAP 232 EP to my .074 I check the prop`s and write about RPM. Also I try to make different wooden propellers and check it too. My plane weight is 560 grams, and I haven`t unlimited vertical with any of this props.
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