Sneasle

hello all
after a little bit of motivation given to me by someone on this forum through PM's, i have decided to post my plane for all to see and offer advice on.

i have looked through this area of the forums at the other threads of people workign on guillows models and i cant help but say it has discouraged me a little bit. especially since this plane is mostly built and covered already.

i have always wanted to get into this hobby, and during my junior/senior years in highschool (alabama school of math and science) i started an R/C club. we never really got too deep into it, spend about $800 of the schools money on a traxx stampede and then threw in new motors, new body, new speed controls, better servos, ect. was alot of fun chasing cars and people with it, and man could that thing grab some air :P, but im getting off subject. toward the end of junior year the firebird/aerobirds came out and our hobbytown down in mobile, AL got in a shipment of them. as a club we got roughly $400 a term to spend, so one weekend out of the month we would get a PO and go down to hobby town and blow $400 on r/c stuff. (400 goes a long way when its 20% off everythgin because we are a school and we get tax exempt as well). anyway, we bought 2 firebirds and a lot of extra wings, batteries, 2 chargers, and plenty of other stuff to keep us in the air (only 2 people in the club had actually had experience flying r/c before, i have always been a car/buggy person up till this point.) so we had a blast going out to our soccer fields next to campus and buzzing these things around. we eventually ran into problems because the field was surrouned by tress on half the sides (2 fields in an L shape end to end) and by a street intersetion on 2 sides. this plus the fact that mobile gets really sudden wind gust causes our firebirds to eventuall eat enough dirt that they werent useable any more. the next term i got a bigger PO and we went and got 2 aerobirds and extra wings, ect. these faired alot better, having more power and better handling and proved quite entertaining out on the fields. we got some really nice flights out f them, never had the chance to use the dog fight x-port things tho. then we came toward the end of my senior year and one of the security guards gave me a plane he had in this garage for the past 30 years. it was an uncovered patrially build C/L plane with a symetrical wing and a profile fuse. me and alnother guy in the club (one with r/c plane exp) decided to make it r/c and proceded to blow 2 terms worth of funds on a radio/ hs-55 servos, batteries, a motor, covering, irons, and all the nicks and nacks we needed to accomplish this. we got pretty clsoe too, but didnt quite finish before the year ended and i am not sure he has had the chance to finish it since i graduated. during this time i also got my hands on some of the 16 inch kits by guillows, and built a fw-190 that turned out great expect for the lack of cowl and canopy in the kit. (it remains unfinished) since hten i have started 2 other 16" planes and they both remain unfinished (p-51 and a hellcat).

ok, now back to the matter at hand, that was me rambling and backroudn info on me since i am new to this forum. should give yall a good idea of my lack of exp and skill in this area.

so this past summer i got my hands on 2 more guillows kits, paid about $20 for both (ebay) a p-51 and a spitfire. I had every intention of making them electric r/c, but my lack of exp has proved quite hindering.

the p-51 is not largely built and covered. when i got here where i am now (auburn universtiy) my new roomate had had a fair amount of r/c exp so he offered tips on how to modify the p-51 kit to make it fly better. i was not too concerned with keeping this plane lookign scale, as the pictures that will follow will show with the wings. I did not make too many modifications, basically solid balsa tail feathers, 4 hs-55 servos installed, 2 in the rear, 2 in the wings (dont yell at me, its what my roomate suggested, i didnt know any better). i had the hardest time finding a motor, and eventually gave up and put in a gws eps-400c with BB and a D gearbox. it mounted easily and the cowl fit over it well. the prop on it currently is a 10x8 slowflier prop from gws (i think). the speed control is a gws as well, although i do not know if it will be powerful enough to handle this motor, picture of it will follow as well.

i also have purchased 2 radios as well. a futaba skysport 6, and a JR unlimited series mark 7 model J128F off ebay, $50 for both radios. the JR is an older model, but has 8 channels. the futaba is the pervious generation skysport, but it shoudl still be enough for one of these planes. my issue with the radios is that i am not sure of what kind of receiver to get for them and the hobbytown here in auburn does not seem to know enough to offer me and advice. i know the JR works, at least 7 channels. my roomate hooked it up to his Sim software and flew with it, but one of the aux channels wouldnt register with the software. the futaba i am not sure of its condition, but it has a good charge on the batt and shoudl work ( i hope). so any suggestions on receivers for the radios would be a HUGE help. i would like to make use of all the channels if possible, but its not a nessesity.

the plane it self is in good shape. it has some holes now in the tissue form moving it, but that will be easy to fix. i have yet to get a receiver/battery for it, and i am not sure if the motor will be strong enough as well. also i am very concerned about some of the other issues raised with converting guillows kits that i was not aware of when i first build this plane. the wing has no dihedral in it (i forgot about it, please dont kill me) and is still the flat bottom airfoil that the kit had originally. it does have rudder/elevator/aileroins and throtle. the ailerons we added to the wing after it was finished and were built out of stock balsa and then CA hindged to the TA of the wing. they move very well and have a HUGE amount of travel (all the way down, they extend past the LG). if anyone is concerned about their large size, that is the size the roomate recommended i add because of how slow the thought this plane would end up flying. after reading the threads here and seeing how small the ailerons are that some have added, i have become very worried about the large size of the ones here. i will include pictures on them incluidng the max/min throws.

i think that is all of my rambling for now, please feel free to ask questions, offer suggestions, critizice and anythign else you feel you need to express

any help is most appreciated.

i am also including pictures of a very small engine that a friend gave to me. i have no idea what is it, what size it is, and whether or not it might be useable?

i will post a few pictures on thi spost and another post and then link to my photobucket where the majority are since the file sizes are kinda large

Sneasle

more pics

Sneasle

lst set of pics

KidEpoxy

How is the Center of Gravity (CG) ?
What batteries are you using? 7 or 8 cell NiMH? LiPo? the weight / placement of the batteries can be a concern
The lack of dihedral isn't a killer, just makes it more difficult to fly, Not a good choice for new pilot

Welcome to the hobby, don't give up. If you are lacking in pilot experience, maybe a Trainer plane to get some stick feel before taking this baby up- It looks too nice to end up confetti.

Sneasle

i dont have batteries picked out yet, will probably go with a lipoly, and i dont have a receiver yet, so c\CG has yet to be determined. i have considered goign out and buyign a trainer, but i dont have any experience with nitro at all, and being a new college student my funds are limited. .. now if i could find a trainer kit cheap on ebay, id grab it, but i have yet to see one.

Sneasle

photo bucket is being a pain in the but, so the rest of the pics will be a while in comming.

BMatthews

Hey Sneasle, welcome to your new addiction...

First off I think you'd be better off to put the Mustang on a shelf for now and go with a sort of intermediate trainer. Given your time with the Aerobirds and similar you can probably bypass the basic trainer idea and perhaps go build something like the Das Not Ugly (DNU) and learn to fly something with a bit of STABLE performance. The DNU is not only going to be more predictable and easier to trim out but a lot tougher than the Mustang if you prang it a little.

Once you get your fingers back into practice then have a go at the mustang. But a couple of hints for it. Loose the big barn door ailerons. They are just going to get you into trouble. They effectively shorten the tail moment arm and reduce the % size of the stabilizer. All of which will bite you hard when you try to fly it and wonder why it's unstable in pitch. Replace the fat barn door ailerons with some 3/4 inch wide strip balsa replacements. It's all you need for some sporty rolling in any event.

Not to mention that at only 24 inch span the Mustang is going to be a handful to fly even for a skilled pilot at the very least until it's trimmed and perhaps even after that depending on weight and other issues. NOT a great way to get back into flying.

If you intend on sticking with smaller models then check out www.fmadirect.com. The M5v2 reciever at $40 plus crystal looks like a killer deal on a very small and light but still full range reciever.

KidEpoxy

What about the GWS foamie trainer- eStarter...
If you are gonna go electric with your Mustang, then the same guts can go in the eStarter Trainer so the only real cost is the ~$50 for the plane. It is an aileron high wing, and foamies fix real easy with 5min epoxy... boy do I know that. If you do go with the geared 300 or 400, get a few extra propshafts & gearboxes ordered now, cheap but a pain to wait for.

Sneasle

thanks for the input, ill look into that reciever.

ya.. thats what i was afraid of with the ailerons.. i dont know why he suggested i make em that big in the first place.. like they are they have a huge amount of deflection.about 3/4" down and a full inch up...
so aside from the huge ailerons.. the rest look ok? think the motor and ESC combo will work for it?

DNU? im confused, Link please?



thnks for the idea about the foamies.. ill look into it.. and the extra gearboxes is a good idea, dont know if i will stick with this motor or not though.

Sneasle

which radio would that receiver be for? which radio should i try and use at first?

hogflyer

BM,

Uh, those aren't barn door ailerons, they are the complete barn .

Sneasle,

BM is right-on here - those barn sized ailerons will do nothing but get you into trouble, and it could be questionable if the plane would fly at all with them on. If you need ailerons, loose the barndoors and build some proper ailerons into the wing. You’ll also be much better off with an intermediate trainer like the DNU to learn to fly with ailerons and performing advance manuvers. The Guillows will be a squirrel on a good day. Better off left until you have a lot more experience.

Hogflyer

Sneasle

dont make fun of me, i only did what my roomate told me to do... ..

would ailerons built into the wings provide enough deflection? should i just go alogn with how they have done it in the spitfire thread? make them about that size?

and where can i find this DNU?

and i still woudl like to finish building the guillows. i dont really have the funds to start another plane, and a trainer like the DNU ( i am assuming ) is going to require a fairly large investment for kit, motor, assesories, fuel, and similar stuff, none of which i have. that, and i have no experience with nitro, so i wouldnt know how to tune it and the LHS here isnt very helpful with these matters.

SGC

A DNU thread is here :- http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=3804817">here</a and the plans can be dounloaded from here :- http://www.ulmer-rc.com/
Stewart

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

It doesn't take much of an aileron deflection, [or for that matter a warp] to make a plane want to bank one way or the other. A pair of normal sized ailerons only need to deflect an 1/8" either side of neutral to make a plane this size controllable. 3/16" would be kind of wild, so you can see it is a fine line with these tiny planes. The aileron setup in PTLULMERs' DAS NOT UGLY STICK would be fairly easy to set up, but there isn't anything wrong with an HS 55 in each wing panel either.

Sneasle

thanks for the link to the plans.

so you think i should keep the servos in the wings and just build another set of ailerons into the wings that look a little more scale? would that give it the proper amount of performance?


still, what about motor suggestions? or would i be better lookign in another forum for those?

SGC

Good cheap motor for the DNU is the Cox sure start :- http://www.coxmodels.com/prodinfo.asp?number=008901
Stewart

Sneasle

ok, photobucket is now behaving, here is the link to all the pictures of the p-51 if anyone is interested to have a look and see whatever else might need to be changed.

http://photobucket.com/albums/v280/sgcool195/Planes/

edit: forgot link

Sneasle

i was refering to a motor for the p-51 (electric preferable since i have no expereince with nitro), but that works too, thanks

BMatthews

Don't even bother with cutting into the wing. Just remove the huge flaperoonies and add a strip from root to tip that is 5/8 to 3/4 wide. Set it up with 3/32 up and down (3/16 total throw) and you'll be good for the first flights on it. From there if you find that it's too mild for you then increase to 1/8 up and down or 1/4 total. Trust me, at anything that is not close to the stall point that'll be plenty of throw to do some wild aerobatics. The guy that suggested the huge paddle blades must have been a foamie 3D flyer who's used to flying at about 0 mph airspeed. For normal flying you sure do NOT need more than what I'm suggesting here.

And depending on your own honest opinion of your flying it may eve be worth looking at the LST trainer that is stickied at the top of the thread listings in this forum. Even that trainer can be made to be quite aerobatic with a bit more throw in the controls and the CG moved back a little.

And hey, don't sweat the learning or be afraid to ask stuff. In anyone does more than post a light hearted poke at you I'll ban their butt for bad behavior... We all had to start somewhere and I'd be very surprised if most of us didn't go through the same delusions and misunderstandings.

KidEpoxy

the 400c geared D with a orange 10x8 would work with that 8/15amp Speed Control you have with 7-8 cellls Nicad, maybe a 9x7 3blade would be nice... if anything it may be too much for that plane. You could probably get away with a 300c geared motor with 2cell LiPo batts. The GWS web site has the amperage draws for all the different gears, Props, & voltages for the 400c... the ESC you have is good for that motor if you dont fly max throttle all day.

but I haven't messed with electrics in a few years, a second opinion would be in order

hogflyer

Sorry Sneasle, wasn't trying to make fun of you. Just commenting on the size of the ailerons in realtion to the size of the wing - they are some of the largest I've seen in relation to the wing size for a non 3-D plane. From the pictues you posted the rest of the build looks really good.

Hogflyer

brocja01

I second going to the DNU 1st instead of the Mustang. I just flew mine for the 1st time, it is only the second plane I've ever flown and the 1st one I've had to hand launch and the maiden when wonderfully. It is a very stable plane, and the only trim needed was due to my in-experience in building. I only did 2 channels for mine (alerons, elevator) and I can tell it is going to be hoot to fly. Find yourself a good Black Widow, or a Sure Start and build yourself one. It took me 2 months to build, but I had the wife on my back and of course was short in money. But with money and a bunch of time, I think I could have even built one in a week.

Good luck with whatever you plan to do.

Sneasle

BMatt:

thansk for the help with thsoe demensions, that will make redoign it much easier. how thick should they be?

Kid Epoxy:

thanks, that calms some of my fears.

Hogflyer:

no harm done.. i wasnt complaining, it was more of a sarcastic "me no like, leav eme be, i didnt know any better" sorry, just a weird aspect of my personality, didnt mean to make ya feel bad about it, i take poking really well usually. and your right, they are huge, makes me wonder what thehell my roomate was on.. he flyies p-47 and p-51s... and has his nice little simulator.. so it really makes me wonder.. ill say one thing for it though, i took it outside on the concrete in the garage and tied it to the front of my garage fan and cut the fan on.. plane was bouncing all over the place. and i hooked the motor up to the ESC on my car just to see about how much power it would kick out.. thing jumped out of my hands and almost tore the aligator clips through the spars.

brocja01:

thanks, i really enjoy building these things, and it sounds like fun to build it fromscratch



any hints on a good spot to stock up on balsa? the hobbytown here sucks @$$. oh, and are they any instruction posted anywhere on the DNU? i have looked the plans over and there are a few small things that confuse me. also, anyone know what demensions those plans are meant to be printed? there are a couple good print shops here in town, but i dont know if they will print as big as needed. if not, id be willing to pay someone to print and mail me the plans.

i still want to finish the mustang now if i can, just to have it finished. it will make me feel alot better about it. i am in no hurry to fly it, i just want the satisfaction of having it done. i also have a 2 meter glider partially built up that i will be posted a build thread on shortly. i ran into a problem with its fuse, since it is made of 2 peices of LP that are branced by formers. it seems one side was longer then the other and i didnt catch this before i attached my rudder assembly, and now the rudder is about 10degrees off from straight, which is def not good. what thread should i post this in? the glider forums?

thanks for all the help guys. you have no idea how much it has helped. noe to get beat the roomate with the barn doors.



edit: also, i am interested in building a plane for "combat" type event. i dont wanna fly it anytime soon, i just think it would be fun to build it. is there an area of the forum here for combat planes?

BMatthews

Do a search within the 1/2A forum for "dnu" or "das not ugly". It'll turn up a few build threads. If you still have questions then post 'em up and we'll help out.

I've also got a version of the DNU plans that prints out on 4 sheets of legal sized paper. But you need some sort of free CAD, DWG file viewer and print utility or TilePrint to print them out. Then tape the sheets together and you're ready to cut wood! Patrick, the DNU designer, assures me that this version will be available on his website soon..... (no pressure pt' ). PM me a regular email addy and I'll send it to you.

The Mustang add on ailerons can be made from some nice stiff but light 3/32 wood. If you can get the C grain stuff. This is the wood that seems to look a bit 'checherboardy" Just round the front and taper off the rear a bit and hing 'em on. With your servos being out in the wings the links will be at close to mid span so stiffness and flutter should be nicely reduced. Line them up so neutral is not really in line with the top or the bottom but somewhere in the middle and be sure they are both the same.

PS: Actually scratch that last bit. Set the neutral so the lower surface of the aileron and the wing are both in line as well as you can tell. That'll add a bit of reflex to the flat bottomed standard Guillow airfoil and help calm some of the hard climb under power that this plane will try to do.

KidEpoxy

You know, looking at the Foot Cam shot next to the ESC pic... the barn door front strip would make a nice aileron by itself, just cut everything behind the front strip off- tada! just fine aileron .5-.75 wide... just a thought

Since this is a 1/2A nitro engine forum, the guys here kinda lean toward using engines more than electric motors: You may find some more info in the RCU electric forums... not kicking you out or anything, we're a hospitable bunch, but there may be more in Electrify It dogma in the other thread unlile out Go .049! chanting

Either way, keep posting here, we like looking at the pretty planes people make