"1/2 A" & "1/8 A" airplanes These are the small ones...more popular now than ever.

1/2A Diesel Engines?

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Old 07-12-2006, 12:24 PM
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efish
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Default 1/2A Diesel Engines?

Hi, I've been toying with the idea of going diesel - partly to lower the noise level and partly because of the larger props for slow flying. (And yes, I have never heard of anyone else flying diesel around here so curiosity is also a factor). Diesel engines are very, very rare locally but I have finally tracked down a LHS that stocks diesel fuel.

Have 2 options now - a diesel conversion head (Davis or RJL) for one of my AP Wasps OR, I just discovered a LHS that has the Enya 06D-II in stock. Costwise, both work out to be about the same price (and about half the price of a PAW 06). On paper, the Enya is quite a bit heavier (3.4 oz) and a chart I have rates it at .13 h.p. I don't have any specific data on a converted Wasp. I know neither can match the performance of the ball raced PAW, but between the two options, does anyone have any thoughts on which would be preferred?

There's also an Enya 11CXD engine available locally (probably old stock from at least 20 years ago). Once I start playing with diesel, should I just grab this engine to keep for such time that I can find a use for it?

Thanks!
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:31 PM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

I just got the Davis Diesel head etc. for my norvel .049 now it'll throw an 8x3 prop.!!!!! From what I can understand the diesel conversion allows much greater torque, and much more efficient fuel use...but the diesel fuel is more expensive but I think over the long run you'll save money in cost per time flying!
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:32 PM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

The small enya's are not made to the same standards as the larger ones. I heard that the 06 has a conrod stamped out of sheet metal!

For proper build quality see PB. Paw look ok too, plus of course all the conversions out there.


http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/forumid_87/tt.htm

http://www.peterburford.com.au/

http://www.eifflaender.com/spares.htm

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Old 07-12-2006, 01:03 PM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

eFish,

Go with the RJL head. The Davis head is rather silly in that it uses little teflon disks to seal the contra-piston. How mad would you be to get to the flying field and not have anymore seals on hand[:@]. The RJL head uses a normal o-ring on the contra piston. Go with the AP Wasp.

The Enya 11CXD is said to be a kick butt diesel engine, if it's a good deal pick it up so you have it when you need it.

LAter,
Tim
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:18 PM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

Thanks guys. Very useful info.

Tim, can I clarify that the correct RJL head that will fit the Wasp is the one precribed for the Cox .049? Looks like a dieselised Wasp will cost a little more, but I'm pretty comfortable with the Wasps and I guess I could always put the head on one of my norvels. Been tempted to get the 11CXD for a while now; pricing is reasonable but not fantastic but then again, the way things are going (or not going) locally diesel wise neither are the odds of obtaining another one NIB in a few years time.

Microengine, thanks for notes - I have 3 of the larger Enyas (.19, .25 and .30) and agree that enyas smaller than .09 do seem to be built quite differently. However, there have been some good reports; saw this on a smallnet post:-

"The only Enya Diesel in the range is of particular interest. My Enya .06 R/C diesel compares very favourably with my PAW 06 R/C, especially on larger prop sizes. In my opinion, my Enya throttles better. The PAW definitely out-performs it on smaller, faster planes. But the Enya lugs the larger ones more realistically. "

Oh, and the PB is AMAZING! (But quite beyond my budget.)

Thanks again guys.
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:48 PM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

"Oh, and the PB is AMAZING! (But quite beyond my budget.)"

We need Peter, to have," A Super Sale ",For his RCU friends.
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Old 07-12-2006, 10:05 PM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

I want the PB so bad that I have to keep the booze away from the computer
Ralph
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Old 07-13-2006, 02:20 AM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

500.00 Australia Dollars = 297.001 Euro = 377.736 US$

I think I have to stop dreaming. The PAW 55 will have to do the job until I'm a millionaire (...or go totally mad and want one really really really bad [&:]..... mmmmmm..I wonder what I can get for my surestarts and teedees on e-bay )
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Old 07-13-2006, 07:57 AM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

Well here is my little diesel. This one will never be ran and will only be a display piece. I just don't want to have to get parts for it!

.....yes it's sitting on a Cox reed valve crankcase. It's alittle smaller than a .010. The smallest one the guy makes is half this ones size[X(][X(][X(]

LAter,
Tim
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Old 07-13-2006, 08:09 AM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

Man, what would an .005 fly? A kleenex? That's a seriously neat little engine!
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Old 07-13-2006, 08:25 AM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

if he is making them smaller than that, he's gonna need a cleanroom & wear a mask to prevent inhaling them

Forget about how hard it is to see 1/8A planes at 300', I cant see the engine at 10'
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Old 07-13-2006, 06:23 PM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

The Enya 11CXD is beautiful engine. I have run mine a bit, it still needs more running in though. For quality I would put it above almost any other mass produced diesel - PAW, MVVS, conversions etc.. A LOT heavier than the Norvel .074 of course.

I have an Enya .06 glow reed valve which is a great little engine for quality but a bit down on power. It's nearly 50 yrs old so I can forgive that. I'd love an Enya .06 diesel, but more for collector value than serious flying.
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Old 07-13-2006, 09:00 PM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

Thanks everyone. The PB is right up there on the list of stuff I'd love to have but could probably never afford. Then again, RC aircraft & helicopters used to be on that list too......

Hi John, yes, the 11CXD is nice - went down to the shop yesterday to handle it again. ABC construction, the legendary Enya G carb (a BIG attraction!) and 2 ball races! The salesperson couldn't believe I would actually want to buy it to use since its an old Enya (from the original factory) and its a diesel. Guess the pricing here is reasonable (just over about 100USD), but its sobering to think that the engine costs more than either an OS 15CVA or a Norvel .74 both of which probably put out more power at less weight.

Wanted to get the engine to put into a scale Raiden warbird designed for a OS 10 FP (or .10 -.15 engine) that I'm planning to build. Anyone have any thoughts? From what little experience I have with small warbirds, I'm thinking I'd prefer a bigger prop for the plane, especially for the hand launches that have proven a little hairy with small props screaming at high RPMs. Something about the big nose and higher drag, I think.

The Enya 06-II Diesel would certainly cost less than converting one of my Wasps (engine plus diesel head & shipping) and that was really the only attraction. Just realised its a non throttled CL engine too, so I'm a bit less interested. here's a link to the engine: http://www.hobby-shack.com/accessories_engines_enya.htm If you're keen and its still available, PM me and we'll see if we can see about getting the engine out to Canberra.
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Old 07-14-2006, 09:09 PM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

Anyone have a link to the RJL HEADS??
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Old 07-14-2006, 09:12 PM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

http://www.mecoa.com/acc/diesel/index.htm
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Old 07-14-2006, 09:31 PM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

Thanks Mr.L. I was hopeing I could find a diesel head conversion ,for the BigMig 0.074" ,but no luck there.Anyone have a suggestion.I would like to, try a simple bolt on conversion.You know, Buy,and ,Fly..
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Old 07-14-2006, 09:35 PM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

I have heard some complaints about service from mecoa. Are they dependable? Are there other retailers that sell rjl heads?
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Old 07-16-2006, 12:32 AM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

I've always had good luck with Mecoa but haven't done business with them in a few years. If you want to try diesel, I agree with Tim to get the RJL head above all else.

If you're curious about how a diesel conversion runs, see this,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRn5i6Knisw

The head is my own but I have run the RJL head and performance is the same.

If you can get fuel be cautious though. The small engines really do need fuel with a lot of ether. I stumbled and struggled to get the little stinkers started and running but had a rough time of it till I was told that, like glow and nitro, 1/2As like lots of ether. I mix my own out of necessity. What works best for me is a mix of 40% ether, 40% kerosene, and 20% castor oil. Usually, a cetane booster is also required. This used to be amyl nitrate but it's a heart drug and impossible to get. As substitute for this that's available at your hardware store is MEKP, which is fibreglass hardener. Yes, it's highly corrosive, will take your eye out in an instant. But once mixed at 1 to 2%, you can live with it. And yes, when you handle it, you use extreme caution (safety goggles) but no more caution than when you're mixing resin.

Hardware store kero is acceptable, and the ether can be had in spray cans, called Quickstart used to start full size diesels. The preferred is the John Deere brand because it's guaranteed to be 80% pure ether with the balance "mixed volatiles". I just mix it 40% and it works great. If you have concern with the MEKP, you can get Amsoil cetane booster in 16 ounce jugs from your local dealer. If that doesn't work for you, you can oder from them online and they'll ship from their nearest location to you. I have two jugs and they'll last me a lifetime.

You're going to have to be careful with diesel operation. The parts were meant to run glow at higher rpm. On diesel, the higher (much higher) compression ratio along with slugging a larger prop means high loads on the parts, especially the crank. The Wasp is a good little engine but I did break a crank in the early days of experimenting with diesel. Likely my inexperience at the time was the culprit.

Which prompts me to also advise that when you come to start your little stinker, DO NOT fill the fuel tank. Well, to back track. Run it as glow and get your needle settings. From there, install your head and leave that tank empty. You first want to find the compression setting on the fuel you're running. This means three drops into the intake and hit it with your starter. If no go, tweak in the compression screw a quarter turn and try again. At one point you'll fire off the prime. Only then do you fill the tank and have another go. If you ran out the prime, the CR is close and it'll fire a few times to warm up and then you will get a run. Tweak in the compression first, tweak the needle, go back to the compression screw, back and forth and you'll find that magic sweet spot.

Use only a 1/2A starter, NEVER prime into the exhaust unless you're flipping by hand. If you can start it by hand, you have gorilla arms and I don't want to meet you in a back alley. Another way to say, you won't start it by hand. However, a very safe way to start your Wasp would be to install a spring starter. The Norvel .074 starts without even needing to be primed.

Check out my other videos on the same link, dieselizing the VA .049, the Brodak .049 along with the entire range of Norvels.

Good luck, you're going to have a blast running stinky fuel.

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Old 07-16-2006, 12:50 AM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

Efish,

I just realized that you hail from Singapore. In fact, after my first article came out, I was swamped with requests for work on throttling small engines. My best client was Raj Massilamoni from your fair city/state. Raj was big on diesels, I was not much interested. He sent me some to convert with throttles and this forced me to learn to run them to make sure he was satisfied with the throttling performance we were hoping for. As it turned out, even old, Indian made Mills replicas, responded to a good throttle just like any other engine.

Raj had me convert a Wasp and this is what I needed to do to make it go. At the time, I believed the old taboo about NEVER using an electric starter. His converted Wasp would not start, even with a relaitvely high ether content fuel. I reasoned correctly that traditional diesels have very efficient compression seal compared to modern glows. So I tried to achieve this and did so by installing an EXTREMELY tight fitting piston by mixing and matching various parts. I had to use a heat gun to allow the engine to turn over to start and to break it in. Once that was done, this engine would start without having to adjust the compression screw. Most diesels require you to overcompress to start and then you back off the compression as the engine warms up. Not this little guy. As it had a muffler, I had to prime at the intake. But with just three drops into the carb and two or three agressive flips, the engine would run out the prime. Another or a third go would have it running with a pronounced burrp, burrp. This means that the prime runs got the cylinder up to temperature to allow a start. As the engine ran, it warmed up to the point where it transitioned into a beautiful run.

Since then, I've discovered that starters are not to be feared as long as you take care and have lots of ether in your fuel.

Say hello to Raj for me, if you know him.
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Old 07-16-2006, 12:53 AM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

With the diesel conversions, it is not a question of IF but WHEN you break something vital inside the COX, AP or NORVEL. I have never had any of these engines make it through a complete gallon of fuel before something broke. Hand starting them is difficult, so electric starting is how I've done it, and some engines have been ruined that way. Others have just metal fatigued from the excessive power loading and prop loading. My advice is to go with the PAW or look into SHARMA.
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Old 07-16-2006, 02:39 AM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

Hi CP,

I may have just been lucky twice in a row but I've got two Norvel .074s that have seen at LEAST a gallon of fuel through them and so far, no problems. I HAVE broken Cox cranks and also that one Wasp crank in fairly short order on the bench. Raj's Wasp was only bench run for a few tanks and I've lost track of him so I don't know how his made out. IF Wasp cranks do break easily, the Norvel is a direct drop in replacement. I will admit that all my other diesel converts haven't flown extensively and some of them might just go bust in the air. But the .06 and the .074 Norvel have done well by me.

The other thing I like about conversions is that you can break them in on glow and actually get very close with both the high speed and low end mixture adjustments.

In retrospect though, you're likely right. I just wish someone would come out with just a fatter crank and rod as replacements for the modern engines. (I like them for their light weight and capacity to carry a proper muffler with pressure to the tank). This would ensure a diesel conversion that would do us right. The rod is easy and so is the crank, really. Just make the bore of the crank smaller. More metal for strength and we don't lose anything because diesels use/need less fuel per RPM. Been harping on that for some time but the issue is, apparently, that the diesel community is so small,,,,

All my Norvel converts will be flown,,, just need to start building [X(]large[X(] airplanes.

But geez, what are YOU doing up so late,,, or early.
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Old 07-16-2006, 04:01 AM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

Andy; I seen 1, of your videos a couple weeks ago ..That`s what got me intrested .I think it was the 0.074" conversion....Gee,I want to give, Diesel Conversion, a try.I`ve Got ,2 Norvel BigMigs(0.061"+,0.074").I`m not scared to break things,I just want to be able, to replace parts, when/if needed.The .061" is brand new,.074" is near new.If I had a choice of which engine to convert, it would be the .074".I just recieved a new Spare Cylinder, Piston, +Rod set(0.074").I also have, spare Glow plugs for the .074".I can`t get them for the .061"(back ordered[]).My fear is, that I won`t be able to, repair things if problems show up.Andy; any advice?Do You Want a small Job?If I was to get a spare head,and sent you, a cylinder, and head ,Would that be, everything needed, to do the conversion?I can`t find a ready to use,Diesel, cylinder head..[].Maybe, you have a set up ,for sale..Dave
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Old 07-16-2006, 10:48 AM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

I haven't tried the .074 conversion, that one is likely a winner if you don't go overboard with prop selection. It isn't just the combustion pressure that does the 1/2A engines in, but combine that with the greater work load, and that is what does them in. I haven't tried making my own thicker rod yet, for some reason I haven't had any crank failures with the NORVELS. A local 1/2A guru thinks the AME is the best engine to dieselize, and he himself has a pile of snapped rods to show you. He dry cranks the engines with the feed line pinched, and allows the fuel to get pulled into the engine, does not prime it or allow a fueled up model to sit around fueled up unless the feed line is clamped off.
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Old 07-16-2006, 06:48 PM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

Efish,

Just buy the Enya (s?) and avoid all these conversion problems.

A proper diesel is a joy to use.
Glows are made to different specification, of different materials and to different tolerences.
Yes, they can be converted, but they WILL have issues.
Surely, you must credit an experienced engine manufacturer who makes both types, with some knowledge?

Peter
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Old 07-16-2006, 07:53 PM
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Default RE: 1/2A Diesel Engines?

Wow,and I had thought that this thread had about run its course!

Thanks all who contributed further; it was very much appreciated. In particular....

Andy - thanks so much for the very detailed instructions/tips/suggestions on diesels. It's almost everything I wanted to know but was too dumb/scared to ask. Unfortunately, I don't know Raj. I did see his name in several smallnet postings, but I am pretty new to this hobby (started last year) and generally fly alone. To the best of my knowledge (based on discussions at the LHSs), no one here regularly flies 1/2A (apart from me) and no one flies diesel. I'm sure there must be some 1/2A pilots around (aprt from CL), but I just haven't met any yet. Wasps (and their parts) are pretty cheap, but I'll look at the PAW costs before buying anything.

CP - thanks for the pragmatic advice. I was planning to fly the converted Wasp on an almost daily basis so I guess it wouldn't last very long....

Peter - unfortunately, the 06D being sold is a CL engine; really wanted something with a throttle. Nevertheless, I take your point about engines engineered for diesel and so I think the 11CXD beckons....
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