Tim Wiltse-RCU

WHAT[X(] No CS engine ever has been "killer". The CS 1/2a racing engine needed major rework to run right. The GZ 1/2a was a good running engine, at least the one CP has is. But CS is of course out of the engine business too now.

LAter,
Tim

Tim Wiltse-RCU

Jett does not make any 1/2a sized engines!

LAter,
Tim

Tim Wiltse-RCU

This is a Cipolla Tiger Wasp .061. It's a very Coxish' type engine. I didn't know that they were still making them.


LAter,
Tim

gkamysz

My Feedback: (19)

It didn't look like CS was getting out of engines at all at the Toledo Show. They had plenty of engines on display.

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

I've always thought that smaller engines would be cheaper not just because there's less material, which would make more than a couple dollars difference, but also because they require much less time being machined. That should result in less tooling expense and a dramatic increase in volume.

I'll pull an example out of thin air. 3' of 1/2" diameter 1144 stressproof costs $4.36. You could make 12 crankshafts in much less time with less waste than using a $25.30, 3' rod of 1.25" dia to make 6 cranks. You can see material costs would make a difference, but think of how much more tooling you would go through making the larger cranks.


(ok, maybe it wasn't thin air that I pulled that one out of, but you see my point)

gcb

I have one of the older Cipolla .09 standard glow engines. It ran well. I have not run it extensively. They have a newer version now in both CL and RC versions. They also have a diesel that I understand is CRAPolla. This is only by rep, I have not tried it.

Next...The AP .061. This appears to be a Chinese knock-off of the pre-Revlite version of the NORVEL. Has anyone tried using AP repair parts in a NORVEL engine? Perhaps we can mix and match.

I've heard good and bad about AP. First runs of some Chinese products are not up to snuff. I would imagine this is while the factory workers learn the machines...but this is just a guess. General consensus says to clean them before running, including ultrasonic or sonic cleaning if possible. Actually, this should be standard practice for ANY engine...better safe than sorry.

Smart guys buy their wife an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner, then sneak (if necessary) its use now and then. You get points, and clean engines.

George

Edit: Here's a pic of the older Cipolla .09 CL glow engine.

Falco250

This is what I had on Cipolla:

http://www.hobbyclub.com/CipollaEngines.htm

http://www.aumcipolla.it/html/motori.htm

4 years ago I purchased a Cipolla Junior .09 R/C from

http://www.hobbyclub.com/shopping/sh...at=Gas+Engines

but their website has changed to this

http://www.hobbyclub.com/products.htm

ans does not seem to support ordering online.

ptulmer

My Feedback: (5)

Hey, I got a Cipolla question! In the pictures on hobbyclub, all the exhaust ports are aligned, but gcb's isn't. Are the cylinders screwed in? If so, are they indexed? Or are the pressed in? That's one thing that's crossed my mind for a homebuilt engine. Press the cylinders in with locktite. You could align the exhaust ports and wouldn't have to deal with threading both the cylinder and case.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

If you were to heat the case and pop in a cold cylinder, the press in fit could be made strong but I wonder how long it would last?

PlaneKrazee

My Feedback: (14)

It would be nice if there were a supply of con rods and glow plugs for the .074. A Nelson or Turbo plug head adapter would work too.

I don't need a 074 rod, yet. It would be nice to have a spare.

My 074 leaks around the head. I can't seem to get a good seal between the plug and the head. It runs fine but makes a more little mess.

gcb

Can't speak for the new ones but on my old Cipolla Junior the cylinder is screwed in and the head is bolted to the cylinder.

Just from looking at pics of the newer ones, the cylinder fins are much larger. Perhaps they are screwed on or bolted on like a diesel muff. I do not have one of thiose.

George

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

I have a feeling that if the Cipolla .061 was any good, they could have shoe horned their way into APs' monopoly by now.

build light

Cp, I have that same feeling, that if it truly had something going, A few more around here would say so. Still I hadda ask since I didn't know. Just fishin' in the dark!

Robert

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

BL, I think the failure of Norvel and Cox has been duly noted by all would be 1/2A entrepreneurs. AP has been granted their little monopoly by default. They will only be unseated by someone who is willing to work for less profit. The idea of owning a large manufacturing plant is to get rich, not just make a living at it, so it is hard to imagine any serious competition coming along. The new CS engine surprises and disappoints me both, I would have never guessed that anybody would try to market an engine that is weaker [by far] than the AP.

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

I have a Cipolla .06 and it's a very nicely made engine, on par with Cox at least. But it's made out of bar stock. It weighs twice as much as a BabeBee with about 2/3rds the power. Nice try but,,,

The realities of the market place are biting all of us in the @$$. CS still seems to be able to make a 1/2A at an attractive price. And if they made it an .06 with ABC or AAN,,,

But we're a dying breed guys. For years I tried to promote the concept of good throttling, four channel, LIGHT with performance equal to any .40 sized aircraft. It seems like I stepped on a lot of toes by describing what I felt was holding 1/2A back. What was keeping a broader population away from 1/2A.

Most modellers complain that 1/2A are too fast. Are twitchy. Are too hard to start. Don't throttle well or at all. Are too loud with no, or poor muffling. And they were right. But most of us LIKED it that way. We liked to tinker. We liked the simplicity and ease of three channel. We liked the sound and fury of our little beasts screaming their hearts out. But we were, and are, a very small group.

And clearly, most modellers DIDN'T like it that way. But what if they were offered an engine with performance indistinguishable from their favourite .40 ? What if kits and designs came out with 7 ounce wing loadings that allowed performance, again, indistinguishable from their favourite .40 sized whatever. What if that created a larger market for 1/2A?

Well, exactly that was available some 15 or so years ago with the addition of a G-Mark throttle to the original, VA .049 MK1. This was a modern, schneurle ported, AAN engine which looked very much like any other larger engine and it even had an effective, bolt-on muffler. The key was an adjustable airbleed. All was revealed in my first article in Flying Models, in 1997.

The crazy part is that at the time, I sent off to Dan Rutherford, (over the space of three years) two complete, working, RC versions that featured perfect throttling. And he sent them both off to the Russians. The first got lost but the second didn't raise any blood pressure across the pond. Dan was astonished, as I was, at Mr. VA's comment, . "Why would anyone want to throttle a 1/2A"? The even crazier part is that I got the same reaction from many on THIS side of the pond, AT THE TIME.

And it gets crazier. VA stopped production of their engine about the time the Norvels came out. I got one of the first and was in contact with Ed Stevens from the very beginning. From the very beginning, the Norvel .049 and .06 did not have good throttling. Idle always went rich and you always had to mess around with nitro and head shims to even get close. But having tasted the VA's performance, close wasn't good enough for me. So I went to work.

Over the space of several years and a half dozen engines and many, many parts, I finally stumbled on the answer. The answer was something that could only be done at the factory and three times, over the space of two years, I offered samples of these perfectly throttling Norvels. I was repeatedly turned down by Mr. Stevens. Why?

"Because they're selling well enough as they are, so what's the point".

All the while, I was promoting the possibility of good throttling in 1/2A to the community but only succeeded in getting into heaps of trouble trying to get the guys to demand from Norvel, that they improve throttling. I articulated what most modellers didn't like about 1/2A and this was misconstrued as a criticism of what they held most dear about the hobby. Sure as hell backfired on me. All I did was offend a lot of good people.

But back to VA. FINALLY they saw the light. But not before complaining to Larry Driskill that he should be as ambitious with the VA engine as Ed was with Norvel. Go figure, VA had what was needed, free, no strings attached, many years ago. What a head start VA might have had over both Norvel AND Cox. Yes, The Cox RC .05 and .09 came along somewhere in there. But when Larry Renger parted with Cox, that was the end of the good guys, (us) getting good Cox engines forever. Wasn't Larry's fault, he really went to bat for us and he suffered for it. That guy ought to get a medal of honour, or of integrity, or something.

In any case, VA came out with a throttle for their MK2. A very modern, quality ABC engine. But ONCE AGAIN, like Norvel, they insisted on leaving out the adjustable airbleed. At least this time, just as with Dan, Larry D went to bat for us and sent off properly done up MK2s to VA. Once again, provided by myself, gratis, no strings. And FINALLY, after nearly 15 years, you could just go out and buy a modern 1/2A that featured very good throttling along with an effective, bolt on muffler.

Larry D, like Dan, was on our side all along and provided, in many cases, parts, advice, and encouragement when I was working with the VA.

John Brodak went one up on them both though, and that's not a reflection of any sort against Larry or Dan. When I saw the original Brodak .049, complete with a VERY nice and very conventional looking throttle, I just knew I had to see one. So I called on the Brodak company to inquire about getting some throttles. No sooner did I ask when I was immediately passed on to the man himself. As with Dan and with both Larrys, John is truly one of us and one of the good guys. When he found out what I wanted the throttles for, he immediately offered, for free, three complete engines, with throttles, for me to play with. The result of his generosity, as posted here and on YouTube, was taking the Brodak .049 from 12K to 19.9K along with very good throttling. This involved making it into an AAN .06 but that only made it lighter. But wait, that also included adding an adjustable airbleed.

During this time I had the opportunity to rework engines for anyone who asked for it. Most times I could deliver. Sometimes I couldn't get it quite perfect despite spending many, many hours, far beyond any compensation I received for the work. That was always a puzzle to me but I DID have samples that throttled perfectly and these were always offered freely to the manufacturer. With working samples, they, with their broader resources and engineering talent, surely could have sorted out any issues with consistency.

Unfortunately, despite all my efforts, that never happened. But fortunately, I have enough engines to last a lifetime. Some six VA MK1s, three MK2s, six Norvel .06s five .074s, three .15s, one .25 and one .40, and three complete Brodak .06, AAN hybrids. On top of that, I have a dozen complete Cox engines, many parts and many odds and ends. My 1/2A addiction will be fed till I die, no matter what happens. And if CS gets any kind of ball rolling, of any sort, I'll have lots more to tinker with.

That last bit was to assure anyone concerned, that I had not gone over to the dark side completely. I'm referring to my recent work with a 26cc, [X(] gasser conversion. Posted on YouTube and elsewhere on RCU.

Along with that, I'm in the process of taking an OS MAX .10 to a similar place that I took the Brodak to. Not as far maybe, but I know the potential is there.

Final word.

When I realized just how much I had offended the 1/2A community some several years ago, I was literally sick to my stomach for many months. I had many false starts in an attempt to explain but I just never knew how to or was very much afraid that I'd just make things worse. In the end I decided to just keep on trucking and post and contribute as best I could.

There may be lots of folks crazier than I for 1/2A and for the hobby, but I'd bet I could give anyone a run for their money. [sm=bananahead.gif]

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

About conrods for the Norvels.

I've found drop in replacements for the .15 and the .40

Still looking for the .25 and especially for the .074

That last is going to be a toughie. Wonder if the TT .07 might be close enough with maybe a little shimming?

Trying to cover the entire Norvel line before I post the results.

Meanwhile, just off hand, the Norvel .15 will take an OS #21805000 or the rod for an ENYA SS15
Both have a CD of 27mm and bores of 4mm and 4.5mm and both are brass bushed at BOTH ends.

The .40 takes an older Supertigre rod, # 22032243 for their GS40/45 engine. This one is also brass bushed both ends. I got this one off of EBay so I don't know if they're readily available. The CD here, is 34.5mm, bores 5mm and 6mm.

For the .25, we need a rod with a CD of 30mm and bores of 4.5mm and 5.5mm

The .074 is a real odd ball, with a CD of 18.5mm and bores of 2.75mm and 3.5mm

Tower has an excellent websearch facility. If you search conrods, you'll get a great many rods listed. In some cases dimensions are given but in most, not. Of all those rods, I'm sure at least one will be good for the .25. You have to be careful though, some of the rods for car engines can run up to 60 dollars.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Andi, do you mean you are going to work on the OS LA .10? I would like to see a AAC version .

injunnut1

So, whatever happened to the 'William Hughes' 1/2A throttle engines. There for a short while quite a few of us (including me) were buying them up and then suddenly WHAM ..... two broken crank-shafts in succession on Andy's experimental engines ..... this seemingly led to immediate throttle-down of the W. Hughes Engines enthusiasm! Does he still sell the engines, how about those nice spinners and carburetors? I have never so much as fired up either of the ones I bought from Mr. Hughes ..... anyone else?

I still have my NIB 'Trinity.07' car engine from Christmas Time which is still setting in its box, it looks very promising if only I can get around to doing the necessary mods to make it into an AIR PROP driven engine!

Donald Garry

injunnut1

-+`>>>The .074 is a real odd ball, with a CD of 18.5mm and bores of 2.75mm and 3.5mm<<<
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Trinity .07 Car engine has the crank-shaft you want, except that BOTH ends are 3.5mm ...... you could either bore out the Norvel piston to accept a 3.5mm wrist pin, or you could simply install a sleeve over the Norvel's wrist pin at the center of piston only, or you could re-bush the rod's top end to 2.75mm. The Car engine's rod is bronze bushed at the low end, don't know about the top end because I have not removed the rod from its piston yet, don't want to risk losing the tiny G-clip that holds it in place, at least not just yet. <grin> You might want to contact Trinity to verify the specs as I see them?

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

CP,

Not the LA, actually.

I got a practically new .10 FP, real cheap, off of Ebay. This one is ABN and is just gorgeous. I have plans to install a turbo plug by making a button that'll be clamped down by the original head after being bored out to clear. This one will then get a .15 piston and cylinder stuffed into it. I've also got an old, OS .15 crank that just may be a drop in replacement. This is from the series of OS engines that had a steel, finned cylinder that was pressed into the case. The crank web can be JUST trimmed to fit and with a new rod cut to just clear, we may get a near .18 at the weight of a .10

During this phase, a diesel head will also be made. Sure hope that crank holds up but I do have two of them.

And yes, CS cranks. The CS or Brodak is a very innovative design. Everything is made to the usually excellent standards that we've always enjoyed. I never broke a crank on glow, even at 19.9K but on diesel, unlike the Norvels, they didn't stand up for me. I did stuff in a Norvel crank but for some reason, performance went away. It may have to do with timing but I haven't had the inclination or time to sort it out.

About William Hughes. After doing stupid things accidentally, I did call Bill up and explained what was going on and asked for permission to warn the diesel guys not to convert their CSs to diesel if they were at all inspired to do so because of my posting to YouTube. He gave such permission as long as I emphasized that this was on a diesel conversion. And that I did. If I put the kaibosh to the Hughes, CS .049, all I can say is I'm sure as h#ll sorry. But someone here, posted that CS was well represented at Toledo.

Don,

Did you hesitate because of my broken diesel cranks? I can only repeat that I've not broken one on glow, that I can recall. BTW, you might find the addition of an adjustable airbleed very useful.

But here's another crazy thing. Some might recall my alerting the community to the availability of the last, remaining, LiteMachines .074s. These have a shorter case and are brass bushed at both ends of the case. There's no throttle but the CS/Brodak throttle is a drop in replacement. You can even make a draw bar using the old spray bar assembly. Along with an adjustable airbleed, this was expected to be another perfect, in all respects, small engine. But for some crazy Newtonian reason, throttling IS very good, but only if you keep it above 7 or 8K. Otherwise, it slowly fades and dies. Damnifino why the h#ll. Been really meaning to sort that one out. Sometimes, I wonder if, like sub atomic particles, throttling gets wierder and wierder, the closer you look at it.

Here's something maybe, that might account for it. Here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-h76s...elated&search= we see an LM .06 engine with their throttled muffler. At a top end of 19.9K, this is better than any other Norvel I have. Fuel, 25% Cool Power and a 6 X 3 black Tornado.

Here, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiLitPGYmdM we have the same engine converted to rear exhaust with a custom made exhaust throttle. We lost some 800 RPM but still, 19K on a 6 X 3.

Might all small engines work as well with just a throttled muffler? Or are the LM engines timed to respond best to being throttled at the exhaust. Hopefully, I can find out this summer.

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

Don,

Many thanks for the heads up on the Trinity rod. Better to bush down, the Norvel pistons are nickle plated, so boring the piston isn't an option. Where does one get Trinity parts?

injunnut1

Go to www.towerhobbies.com and look up Trinity engines, or Trinity Car engines ...... when you get to the Trinity page it will give you a link to the Trinity factory., or click here ............. http://www.teamtrinity.com/ and here ..... http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXMYK5&P=SM

No, the only reason I have not attempted to run the W. Hughes engines is the same reason I have not run dozens of my other NIB engines, I simply have not gotten around to it yet.

injunnut1

>>>the Norvel pistons are nickle plated, so boring the piston isn't an option.<<<

Why, is nickel too hard to bore, or what?

Donald Garry

injunnut1

I went to the Trinity site and found the .07 car engine Parts List ..... unfortunately it looks as tho they will only sell the rod as a complete piston / cylinder / rod assembly?! Here is the parts list, the good of it is the CHEAP prices, look at the price for a new c/case WITH bearings! One could buy just the crankshaft, the cylinder assembly and the c/case w/bearings in order to build up an Aircraft engine maybe?

Replacement Parts
TRI40018A Piston/Sleeve/Rod - $32.99
TRI40018B Slide Carburetor - $9.99
TRI40014B Rotary Carburetor - $9.99
TRI40018C Crank Case w/ Ball Bearings - $5.99
TRI40018D Head/Head Button - $6.99
TRI40018E Crankshaft - $5.99
TRI40018F One Way Bearing - $3.99
TRI40018G Backplate - $3.99
TRI40018H Pull-Start Assembly - $4.99
TRI40018I Collet/Carburetor Cinch Pin - $1.99
TRI40018K Manifold Gasket - $0.99

Japanman

Wow. $50 for all the hard bits

looks like fun. I think I saw a picture of the rod and it is only bushed at the big end.

Stefan