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Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

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Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

Old 03-26-2003, 04:32 AM
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prole
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

Hey guys,

I need a little help here, I'm having a bit of a hard time deciding on an engine for my project.

As I posted in Digger's thread, it is going to be a "Taylor Craft" looking plane, how do they say that, stand off scale, this is stand way off scale. I looked at the Taylor Craft's 3-view as I CADed my plans. It is not only my first attempt at a scratch but my first attempt at drawing anything on CAD. The wings are almost exact, the body takes a bit more imagination.

...(pulling my self off that tangent and back to the point)...

38" span, 29" long 245 squares, I want to use a Cox, well let me rephrase that, I am going to use a Cox. I have loads of TD's but only 2 reeds and that is what I want to use. I have this really nice old Baby Bee that just purrs. It starts on the 2nd flip and will run without a cough till it is out of fuel. Only problem is that it runs dry in about 2 minutes.


I need a little lesson here.

Can I remove the cylinder and piston of that baby bee and put one from my TD on it? Will that improve output? What about if I took the piston and cylinder from my .051 TD? Is that legal, will that then make this a .051?

What about with the fuel tank? I have a Texaco with the big fuel tank, can I put that on in place of the little baby bee one?

Finally, what is the deal with the *product* engines? Are all product engines killer bee's? Is there any advantage to them besides the external fuel tank. For what I want to do I can see many advantages to having an external fuel tank. How do you guys like these? Can I do the same thing with the Piston and Cylinder?


DO any of you guys do this, swap the parts around to make better combinations or are the results negligible? If so, what are some good combinations to try? Anything that I absolutely CAN NOT do?


My original idea was to make it with a Golden Bee and a throttle sleeve. I just got the sleeves but still am without the Golden Bee and it is proving to be quite difficult to get one for a reasonable price on eBay. I have never run a G.B., how are they, compared to a baby bee, which has a higher output? What about the *product* engine and the baby bee?


If any one has either a Golden Bee or a nice product that they might be able to part with, post that right along as well. I want to try something new, now that I have finally gotten my piston tool I want to really get to know these little guys.


Dickeybird, what do you use? where is the magic? What do you use as your standard Reedy, do you ever use the products, how about the throttle sleeves? If you don't feel comfortable bearing yourself in front of all of these ungrateful Norvelites, I don't blame you, just PM me, I'd love to talk Cox...


Thanks guys,

as always,
t-theprole-
Old 03-26-2003, 04:37 AM
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

You N should O try R something V Else L !!!!!!!






all in fun~

good luck sounds like a cool plane!


L.R.
Old 03-26-2003, 04:51 AM
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

I've bashed both Cox and Norvel but Mr. Bird is definetely the expert on Cox. If you're flying a Taylorcraft type, you want to swing a bigger prop with more authority for more scale like performance. The Cox is the hands down winner I think. Compare an APC 6 X 3 (which the Norvel loves) to a Cox 6 X 3 and you'll see massively more blade area on the Cox prop. They made them that way because Cox likes to swing big lumber. Norvel doesn't.

Not cast in stone but I did a comparison one day switching around combinations of TD .049, Norvel .049, Cox, APC and Tornado 6 X 3s and the Cox seemed to have the advantage for stronger torque delivery. Purely subjective observation by the way the plane flew on the various combinations.
Old 03-26-2003, 05:31 AM
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

Many, many questions in there.

To skip to the ending I'd say use the Texaco engine as is. It's a Taylorcraft style model so you don't need the power of the TeeDee or twin bypass product engines for this one. Be prepared to fly it with the larger props as well to keep it scale like. I'd say a 7x3 will fly it reasonably scalish but still have the oomph for the odd loop or rudder roll with a little bit of a dive for speed on entry.

All those parts will interchange just fine. The TeeDee cylinder and piston sets will add a lot more punch to the reed bottom ends but not as much as the stock TeeDee. It'll be a trifle more than the product engine twin bypass fluted cylinders. BUT.... not all product engines are twin bypass types. You can't take this for granted at all. I find that at swap meets a quick scan seems to produce almost half and half with a slight nod to the twin bypass cylinders.

Killer Bees were a special model. Product engines are NOT killer bees. It's that twin bypass flutes that are probably steering you astray.

Stock Golden Bees used a single bypass flute. Same power as a Baby Bee but longer run and can go inverted on control liners.

Secret:
I always found that I got the best performance out of the piston to cylinder fit that was the loosest that would still let me start the engine with the spring starter. It should be loose enough that with fresh fuel wetting the piston you can use light pressure to "leak" the engine over TDC within 6 to 7 seconds. Another test is that with a dry fit the piston should be able to drop through with no sign of hanging up in the cylinder. All this assumes that the reason for the easy leaking isn't a bad score mark of course.

Tee Dees also don't always run well on high nitro with the TeeDee head. I found that one of mine worked better with the Baby Bee hemi head. It was overcompressed with the Tee Dee high comp head.

I'm sure Dickey has something to add to this. We Coxian's need to stick together and share our knowledge to withstand the depredations of the Eastern Interlopers......
Old 03-26-2003, 06:12 AM
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prole
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

Wow, thank you soo much Bruce,

Maybe you're right, now that I'm thinking about it, this seems like a perfect plane for the Cox Texaco, get a nice big prop and go nice and slow.


I think that I just wanted an excuse to spend some more money on a few more Cox engines that I don't have. Not that I really need my arm to be twisted all that hard, but I want a Golden Bee, and still may try one out. If the Golden Bee and Baby Bee are pretty close, then that also sounds about right.

I just don't thing that .020 TD could do it, and with a .049 or .051 TD it will just go faster than what I am looking for.

I just ordered two of the throttle sleeves from competitionma.com. If you aren't familiar with this guy, his name is Darrin and he has more cool Cox stuff in stock and available then any one I've ever found. I really want to be able to have throttle and from what I have gathered from all of the talk about it around here lately that the exhaust sleeve is about the best way to go.

Can I throttle the Texaco with that?

Would that sway my choice at all between the Golden Bee, Texaco or Product?

I think the biggest draw for the product is the external fuel tank, could I get one of those and make it into a Texaco?


Thanks for sifting through my long a@# posts and picking out the important questions, I know that I kind of ramble.

I agree, as much as I love Russian Culture/music/art/philosophy, I love my american Cox's...



DickeyBird, where are you?!?!?!???


t
Old 03-26-2003, 08:15 AM
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fastlash
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Default Bugs

Geez baby bees, killer bees, golden bees, sounds like like bunch of bugs, but I would go with a tee dee 051 with the throttle sleeve and the DB Mod, and the texaco head , that way you can run a large tank, have lots of power and a little more torque with the T head and say 25-30% nitro, and be able to control the airspeed with the throttle,its nice to have X-tra power on tap if needed, Well better go get the bug Zapper out!!! (this one finger typing sucks) But what do I know I fly the big N's
Old 03-26-2003, 01:51 PM
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DICKEYBIRD
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

Originally posted by prole
DickeyBird, where are you?!?!?!???
Sorry Tim, I don't have web access at home and didn't see your post 'til now.

Cough, cough....lash got it right! Well real close anyway. I've run about every combination I could come up with to get a reliable, docile "sport" engine and finally gave up on the reed engines. This is for a throttleable engine, of course. I've seen others with sleeve throttled reedies that worked well but I always had trouble with the mixture leaning out too much at the low idle speeds I need to be able to do 3 point landings with a lightly loaded airframe.

I think your best sport Cox engine for a reasonably light T/Cart would be one built as per the following: Stock TD .049/.051 except for the venturi "bushed down" to .093" ID, Babe Bee or Texaco style glow head with 4 - 5 gaskets, product engine cyl./piston with twin bypass ports and no sub-piston induction (free porting) with a good fitting exhaust throttle sleeve. This combo will get you a 5000-6000 rpm idle, instant transition and good mid-range plus 16,000 to 16,500 on a black 6x3 using 25% fuel. Try it, you'll like it! Let me know if you build up one and I'll send you some color laser printed "Powered By The Famous DickeyBird Engine" stickers to put on the fin.

ps: If you can find a late "Sure Start" grey plastic backplate product engine piston/cyl. with the 2 extra small bypass ports to put on your TD, the top end will be even better! I machine out the center bridge in the exhaust ports to increase the top end even further.

pps: If you want to do up a really de-tuned one to pull a 7x3 like Bruce suggested, let me know, I have some tricks for that as well. I must warn you that you'll need at least 300 sq. in. and an all up weight less than 16 oz. to get reliable performance off a grass field with the "tractor" engine. It's a totally different type of power that requires flying "on the wing." I would suggest staying with the 1st engine setup for now.

ppps: If you're not clear on the venturi mod, let me know and I'll help you out.

Over & out, roger, wilco and all that stuff!
Milton
Old 03-26-2003, 01:55 PM
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

Oh....one other thing: Let the scribes duly note fastlash's 2nd friendly, accurate answer to a Cox question in less than a week!
Old 03-26-2003, 02:22 PM
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

WAIT Hold the fort! Something Fishy is going on here.



My Friends, dont believe the lie!!!!!!!!


It is obvious to me that some force (Coxist in nature) has removed our beloved fastlash, and replaced him with an EVIL doppilganger!!!!!! Lets immediatly launch an investigation. You only need one guess which direction to begin looking!



:boxing:
Old 03-26-2003, 04:11 PM
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

hehehehe
Old 03-26-2003, 07:00 PM
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

Dickeybird

I would love to hear how you modify the TD 049 to get the upper end better.

I have just been using 3-4 gaskets under the glowhead along with the throttle sleeve. Standard 6 x 3 props. Also run on 10% fuel with no problems.

Av8rsodt
Old 03-26-2003, 07:38 PM
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prole
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

Thanks so much DickeyBird,

If you wouldn't mind going into the venturi mod a little bit further, that would be great. Are you opening it up or closing it?

Also, is it only the grey base product engies that have the cylinder/piston that I need? I see lots of white ones and a few red ones on the eBay right now, but no grey ones.

I also did a search for "cox sure start" and it turned up a bunch of helicopters and U/C+F/F plastic Cox planes.


I have the TD stuff, and as far as the Baby Bee head, is that the #325 Std. Glow Heads? I have one spare texaco head bu it kinda seems like those are herd to find. Does Cox still make them?


Right now in my TD .051, I had been putting 2 gaskets under the head and was amazed at the differnce it made. I never tried any more becasue I was satisfied with the performance with 2. Why do you have to lower the comprssion by that much.


sub piston induction is when the piston goes up over the exhaust port just a tiny bit, right? Is that a good or bad thing and if I notice that on a product engine will that help me identify anything?


Also, does anyone have a line on the product engines that isn't eBay. Where can I get these? None of the LHS' around here carry that stuff. Does anyone have any sites that might help in the search?


Thanks a ton guys,


as always,
timothy
Old 03-26-2003, 07:40 PM
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DICKEYBIRD
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

Originally posted by av8rsodt
I would love to hear how you modify the TD 049 to get the upper end better.
What I was referring to was just the removal of the center bridge in the "twin slit" exhaust port to relieve a little exhaust restriction in the "Sure Start" cyls. I do this with a little Dremel abrasive cutoff wheel mounted in a CNC router, then deburring them by hand with a small riffler file. Probably not something that everyone would want to try to do with hand tools.

My goal in tinkering with the TD's is to obtain the widest "envelope" of operation, ie: mods done to promote reliable running on the low end (reduced compression, non free-ported cylinder, smaller venturi i.d.) and then removing the exhaust bridge to free up the top end slightly at full throttle. Some of the earlier product engines, BabeBees and some Medallions had no free porting and had twin intake bypass ports but didn't have the "twin slit" exhaust ports, those cyls. work well also.

Once running and broken in well, I tinker with props and head gaskets to get that last bit of "envelope." When you get it right, it will start easily, taxi out, take off and go straight up (at least on a 16/17 oz. airframe), idle back slow enough to allow a full stall 3 point landing, immediately transition to full throttle and take off again, do touch & goes 'til you get tired of 'em, putt-putt around using the mid-range for a while, land, taxi back to the pits and shut down. A very user friendly lil' engine!
Old 03-26-2003, 08:20 PM
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fastlash
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Default huuuuh

Ok witch one of you coxist is posting cox answers using my screen name!! I deny that I have any thing to do with the answers that Dickeybird is referring to, I feel so dirty over this that Iam going to take another shower!!! Hummmmm New product Cox soap to get the.....Nah!
Old 03-26-2003, 08:56 PM
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

I think fastlash has finally snapped and developed a dual personality like Jekyl and Hyde..... of course figuring out which is which isn't going to be easy....
Old 03-28-2003, 06:21 PM
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prole
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

DickeyBird,

Alright, I understand the lowering of the compression to get the stable lowIdle but I am still confused on what changing the inside diameter of the venturi does.

Also, I have some TD's that still have the screens that they came with for a while and some that ave them removed. I have never really played around with them and usually use the screened ones. I seem to end about half of my flights picking something up out of the dirst so I figure anything that help keep that little sucker keep on sucking is OK by me...

Could you explian your process of "bushing" down the venturi...


I have a really nice old Baby Bee, it is one of my favorites and is the reason that I wnted to use a Reed for this project. What should I look for to determine if it has the "GOOD" cylider.

Thanks so much for the help guys, and you to fastlash, I knew you'd see it our way eventually
Old 03-28-2003, 07:08 PM
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

The TD's were originally designed (late 50's) to outrun anything available at that time and I guess they did. To do this they had to have their cylinder and crankshaft timing pretty "racy" plus a relatively large venturi to pass enough fuel/air mixture to feed the thirsty beast.

This large venturi will not create enough "suction" at low speeds to properly draw fuel and the engine leans out and either bogs & dies upon opening the exhaust throttle or just plain quits when you pull back.

I reduce the diameter on my venturis to .093" (experimented 'til I got a size that works for me) and the fuel draw & needle sensitivity is MUCH better. I do this by drilling the venturi slightly to fit 2 short lengths of K&S alum. tubing, 1 inside the other, bonded to the venturi and each other with JB Weld epoxy. When cured, I chuck it in a drill that I have mounted flat on a bench, (poor man's lathe) drill it to .093 and smoothly flair the venturi opening (with a hand held exacto and a dremel with a small carbide "pea" shaped cutter) down to about 1/32" above the 3 annular fuel inlet holes. By the way, you will have to redrill those 3 holes with a .032" drill. Voila! You're done.

I attached a pic of the venturi on the "tractor" engine on the "DinkyBird" It's the only pic I have of a modified venturi but you get the idea. It has 3 pcs. tubing with an ID of .062" for good fuel draw with the big 7x3.5 prop.

As far as determining a "good" cyl.? As stated earlier, I use those that have no free porting and at least 2 transfer ports. Turn the prop until the piston is at TDC, if you see light through a small gap at the bottom of the piston skirt, the cyl. has free porting/sub-piston induction. These are fine for un-throttled engines but you should try to find one without it for your throttled ones.

Capische? or is it capish?
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Old 03-29-2003, 02:46 AM
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prole
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

Thanks for the directions Dickey. i went to the LHS and got a few lengths "K+S"Aluminum. I haven't had a chance to go and try it out but I will go and try it out later.

I'm also going to check out my Baby Bee. I'll ley you know hw that goes.

This is pretty exciting, a little project within the big project.


I'm still a little un-clear about the fuel holes throught the aluminum. I know that at looking at the side of the venturi when it is removed from the housing that just above the threads there are 3 tiny holes drilled through. Am I just supposed continue those trough the pieces that I im putting in their way?

Now the poor man lathe, is that just to hold it still while you are drilling it are is that spinning some how, I don't really understand. I mean, I understand drilling out the smaller of the aluminum tubes to be .093 inside diameter. Right?

Finially, with the Dremel and an exacto blade I just continue the inward cone shape till I get 1/32" above those holes that I drilled through the lengts of pipe?


Sorry if these are really stupid and obvious questions, and if it works out I would love a "powered by the famous Dickeybrid engine"


...and thank you again for all f the help.


oh, and one more thing, what about those venturi screens? Do you keep them, does anyone? do the hinder performance?




timothy
Old 03-31-2003, 01:02 PM
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

Originally posted by prole
I'm still a little un-clear about the fuel holes throught the aluminum. I know that at looking at the side of the venturi when it is removed from the housing that just above the threads there are 3 tiny holes drilled through. Am I just supposed continue those trough the pieces that I im putting in their way?

Now the poor man lathe, is that just to hold it still while you are drilling it are is that spinning some how, I don't really understand. I mean, I understand drilling out the smaller of the aluminum tubes to be .093 inside diameter. Right?

Finially, with the Dremel and an exacto blade I just continue the inward cone shape till I get 1/32" above those holes that I drilled through the lengts of pipe?

oh, and one more thing, what about those venturi screens? Do you keep them, does anyone? do the hinder performance?
1) Yes, you redrill the 3 holes so that fuel can flow through them.

2) I probably confused the issue; You can drill your .093" hole in a drill press, then chuck the venturi in the "poor man's lathe" to shape the entry.

3) Yes

4) The screen doesn't t hinder performance but once the venturi has been modified there's no place to put it.
Old 03-31-2003, 02:54 PM
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

Hello Dickeybird,
I was looking at your venturi mod and noticed that the second fuel line was not attached. I was wondering what your thoughts on pressurizing the tank are. Also do you use a clunk on your remote tanks, the ones that are not attached to the engine?

I am also trying to build a .010 ship and am having trouble getting/building a small enough tank, any ideas would be helpful.

Do you have a web site? I would like to see and read more about your experience with cox engines.

I also have exhausted the ebay pool of parts, and they really have had alot of stuff. If anyone knows of sites for parts, please post them.
This is addressed to Dickeybird but input from anyone would be more than welcome.
Old 03-31-2003, 03:29 PM
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

Hi MR Flyer57, The only pressure I use is ram air pressure from the prop blast and airspeed of the aircraft. You can't really use crankcase pressure on a throttled engine. I use the back plate pressure nipple/ck. valve or surgical tubing bladder for non throttled Cox engines.

Yes, I use clunks on my Fuji film canister tanks....either the Cox Dragonfly when I can get them or homebuilt ones made from old Sullivan brass clunks. You have to use small, thinwall tubing to get enough flex for good clunk movement.

I haven't built an .010 tank but the .020 tank I built was soldered up from .008" K&S brass sheet.

Nope, don't have a website, don't even have web access at home....I wouldn't get ANYTHING built if I did.
Old 04-04-2003, 07:21 AM
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prole
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

Hey Dickeybird,

Is this the "twin Slit" exhaust port that you were talking about.

I know that this is kind of a bad picture, but I just saw it and got excited.

Is this it? Can I be sure that this is what I am looking for?

Please let me know ASAP, email me or PM me, I'm going out of town this weekend.

Thanks a ton, again...
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Old 04-04-2003, 01:14 PM
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DICKEYBIRD
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

Yup, that's a cyl. with what I call the "twin slit" exhaust ports. Most likely doesn't have free porting but some did. There are cyls. around without free porting that have "open" exhaust ports as well; either will work well with a throttle sleeve.
Old 04-04-2003, 06:31 PM
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Default Cox Help: Reed or Product for my design

MR Flyer 57 -

Based upon my experience (using 10% Cool Power fuel and Cox .049 /.051 w/ throttle sleeve) I would not use the pressure tap - the 2nd line you referred to. This is for a couple of reasons:

1. TD's fuel feed with no problem given the tank is in the right position.
2. The pressurre tap causes the engine to run irregular making it very hard to tune.

The best use of the pressure tap is for the type of non-throttled all out high rpm applications like on pylon racers.

I have just learned to use the same setup each time for reliability sake and try to get as much info out of Dickeybird for further improvements

Another important note: Add 3-4 copper gaskets under the glow head to lower compression = much easier to start and I think it also helps throttle-bility.

Brian
Old 04-08-2003, 06:41 AM
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Default I'm getting there...

Dickeybird,

Well for I have tracked down three of the cylinder/piston's that I need, they are all on the way.

Today I got the throttle rings in the mail and I was at the shop playing around with them and I puleed out my Texaco and noticed that it had one of the 4 slot exhaust cylinders on it, I checked for sub induction and it didn't have it, then I pulled it off and was very happy to see two bypass ports. I don't know why I didn't check this guy when I was first looking but I didn't and this is one of my prize engines.

I swapped that with the TD stuff, put in 4 head gaskets and fired it up just to see how it would work. It started really easily and ran well. They Texaco is almost brand new so the piston isn't even burned on the top, it's nice.

Feeling pretty good about that I decided to try out one of the throttle rings and found that on the TD I couldn't tighten the Cylinder down all of the way. The throttle ring get's hung up on the housing.

I tried all 6 of my TD's and it happens on all of them.

When I tried the rings on any of my Reed's it sat fine. The angle that comes where the cylinder meets the crankcase on the TD's get's in the way.

The easiest fix for this would seem to be filing about a 1/16" off of the bottom of the throttle ring.

I wanted to see what you did about this, I could also file down the casing to make it work.


I didn't really want to take the grinder to the TD, but I also don't want to ruin one of the throttle rings.

so I figured that I would check with the master.


I'm really excited about this, I have the JB Weld drying in one of the venturis and tomorrow I'll drill that stuff out. Once I get this stuff figred out I'll have it to play with and break in for a while until my plane get's finished.

Thanks for the continued help, I'm getting closer....


the prole

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