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Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

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Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

Old 02-13-2008, 08:44 PM
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David Ingham
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Default Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

Here is a copy of an old Cox advertisement that I bought on eBay. I tried to put it in Cox FAQ, but that appears to be closed.
(Trying again to show picture.)
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Old 02-13-2008, 10:15 PM
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

I tried locking it so that it would not be subjected to rambling conversations and cloud the FAQ aspect. But now I see that I can't post stuff like this into it while it's locked.

It's unlocked now and I guess I'll just have to keep a closer eye on the stickies from now on.

Post the image up again and thanks for the memorabilia.
Old 02-14-2008, 09:47 PM
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

David,

I'm wondering when that was made? Is it dated?

The exploded view shows the narrow front crankcase, yet it has a spring starter and a spinner.
There is no gasket between the cylinder and crankcase.
It has the old reed held in by spring retainer.
Backplate is sideways and doesn't appear to have fill or vent. Artist may have remembered needle position on Space Bug.
No fill/vent on tank...which appears to be the Babe Bee type and size.

George
Old 02-15-2008, 04:08 AM
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view


ORIGINAL: gcb

David,

I'm wondering when that was made? Is it dated?

The exploded view shows the narrow front crankcase, yet it has a spring starter and a spinner.
There is no gasket between the cylinder and crankcase.
It has the old reed held in by spring retainer.
Backplate is sideways and doesn't appear to have fill or vent. Artist may have remembered needle position on Space Bug.
No fill/vent on tank...which appears to be the Babe Bee type and size.

George
George,

I believe you’ve brought up an interesting guessing game!

That’s an excellent artists rendering but the crankcase front seems out of proportion. It’s too thin to accommodate the crank. That makes me think that it was preproduction and the artist didn’t have an actual example to work from. Also none of my early engines have that exact spinner profile So far as the tank vents, I can understand why the artist didn’t include them as they wouldn’t really show in that view. You mention a gasket between the cylinder and crankcase. Did early Cox engines have them? I have never seen one on an original engine. That might be a tip.

Al

PS Before someone looks it up in their old mags and spoils it, let some of us old fart$ have some fun guessing. Lots more fun WITHOUT the facts.
al
Old 02-15-2008, 09:23 AM
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Yuu
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

My Babe Bees came with a flat washer and screw...the TD spinner was not included. I see the 'Spit' has the old red rubber spinner... the PT-19 has a simular spinner, but the other spinner..?? Right, that crank won't fit the case! After enlarging it more, I can see the 'tip' of one of the fuel 'pipes' and can see a darker rubber 'O' ring.. the little black one....but it looks almost like the hidden mounting hole...but it's darker and has 'square cut' edges. NEAT PICTURE !! Thanks for shareing. I see it's in the Cox FAQ too.
Old 02-15-2008, 10:24 AM
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

On second look, up isn't up. If you consider the direction of the cylinder as up, the needle is in the correct place. I believe it's a Babe Bee.

I got a Babe Bee when they first hit the hobby shops in my area. It had the screw and washer. I don't remember it having a starter spring, but then , I may have removed it. They were blister packed with a bunch linked together. You just ripped off the bottom one.

I think the TD-1 and TD-3 were the RTF's of the day. The TD-3 originally had a Space Bug Junior, but I think the later ones sported a Babe Bee.

Cox engines before the Babe Bee had an integral prop shaft with an Acorn nut to hold the prop on. I THINK the spinner shown appeared with the Golden Bee, but Cox engines in that era are a bit hazy because I had moved to mostly larger planes.

Perhaps the vintage can be found by the availability date of the RTF's shown on the poster.

George
Old 02-15-2008, 10:50 AM
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

This may not be the best place, but I've got a question about the Cox PT-19 trainers..

The "newer" ones appear to have the front of the fuselage that joins the two sides (cowl) ahead of the engine. The one I had as a kid, I seem to recall that there were two separate, unjoined sides ahead of the firewall. Also, if I remember correctly, mine had a baby bee type engine, with the integral metal tank mounted to the firewall.

Does anyone know roughly when they changed the front of the fuse? I might have to get me another of these planes just for re-kindling old memories..

Old 02-15-2008, 11:54 AM
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

Yes, it looks like the Babe Bee that I bought in -81 or -82 from the club, so probably it's from the 70-ties...
Screw and washer for the prop, spring starter and a spring clip for the reed.

I have I question though, on mine the "round" holder for the reed was separate from the tank part and gave me big problems with leekage (no supprice). That put me of from the Babe Bees, so I never got another one but I've always wonder how it was meant to be sealed in that area?
Old 02-15-2008, 01:29 PM
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David Ingham
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

"Does anyone know roughly when they changed the front of the fuse?"
The PT19 I bought used in the late 1970s had an all metal Babe Bee screwed to the fire wall and the two fuselage sides were not joined at the front.

This cylinder has no step increasing the diameter at the ports, as later reedies have. Some of the used engines in the late 70s had that step, so this is older than that.

Here is the back, so this was a magazine ad. Maybe someone can date the movies.

According to "http://www.mh-aerotools.de/airfoils/cox_frameset.htm", the Babe Bee was made from 1956 to 2000, the PT19 from 1960 to 1996 (the first PT 19 with open nose from 1960 to 1965), the JU 87 in black from 1965 to 1973, and the Spitfire with "AFP" on the fuselage from 1966 to 1969. I make that to cover '66–69, (if I don't take seriously the gaps in PT19 production).
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Old 02-16-2008, 02:42 PM
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

I THINK the PT-19 went out of production with the Babe Bee and was re-designed and resurrected when Cox came out with the Sure Start engine.

One of the gripes about the PT-19 was that the single transfer port Babe Bee engine did not have quite enough power to fly the heavy PT-19 well. By re-designing it a bit lighter and adding the more powerful Sure Start, it made a more usable combination.

Bear in mind that this info is from what I've read and gleaned, I do not own a PT-19.

George
Old 02-16-2008, 02:56 PM
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view


ORIGINAL: Mr Cox
I have I question though, on mine the "round" holder for the reed was separate from the tank part and gave me big problems with leekage (no supprice). That put me of from the Babe Bees, so I never got another one but I've always wonder how it was meant to be sealed in that area?
There was a paper gasket between the tank and the back of the crankcase. For the reed itself, the spring is just to hold it in position, the timing seal is by the reed itself. Perhaps something caused it to not seal correctly.

When a reedie fails to run, often the problem is a speck of grit or something that revents the reed from seating properly, which prevents transfer pressure to push the fuel and air into the upper cylinder. This is considered a normal maintenance/troubleshooting area.

A common problem for a newby is to install the reed's spring clip backwards so that the reed is held shut. The center part of the spring is just to limit the travel of the reed.

George
Old 02-17-2008, 01:05 AM
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David Ingham
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

It is easy to want more power. I believe "PT" stands for "primary trainer". Other 1/2A RTFs should be considered the basic trainers. Mine got off the ground in less than half a turn but often needed gluing when it crashed. So I think the Babe Bee had just about the optimal power for it. Any more and there would have been serious damage on most every crash. Of course a lighter balsa model can fly better and still survive crashes, but they can't be mass produced with good looks.
The Wright Flyer was unconventional, even for 1903, but since there weren't any flight instructors or even manuals available and they planned to fly in it themselves, the most important requirement was not to kill the pilot when it crashed. Someone was killed in one later, but it did very well in that. I don't think that small control line models are easier to fly than piloted aircraft; one just has more chances.
Old 02-18-2008, 12:40 AM
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David Ingham
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

An other comment is that, as was common, the Spitfire is credited with winning over England, while the Hurricane did two thirds of the killing. This goes all the way back: I read that Germans who were shot down by Hurricanes claimed to have been shot down by Spitfires.
(Similarly, many model P40s have Chinese insignia but the later slim fuselage and big radiator.)
Old 02-18-2008, 12:55 AM
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

I think that Cox meant learning to fly (for a first plane as a trainer) it meant no more than to lean to be proficiant at starting and tuning the engine to run out its tank of fuel and to get the plane off the ground and fly more or less level flights until the engine ran out of fuel.

I never owned or flew one of the PT 19s but have seen many of them and never in my wildest dreams thought it capable of a loop or better.

For those interested the PT-19 is still available here:
http://www.virginiahobbysport.com/specials.htm

Robert
Old 02-18-2008, 01:27 AM
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

To me, learning to fly control line was somewhat akin to learning to ride a bicycle. As a boy of 10 I had built many models and could disassemble and reassemble a Cox reed valve engine with no problem. Somehow I just could not grasp the simple skills needed to fly control line. I built and crashed several models trying to learn - self taught of course. Somewhere I got a used Cox PT-19. It practically seemed to fly itself. With perhaps two afternoons of flying it, it had become boring. Within a couple weeks of that I could fly inverted with a Goldberg Lil Jumping Bean and Lil Satan. For me the Cox PT-19 was a real breakthrough.

Arlen
Old 02-18-2008, 09:31 PM
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

The back of the magazine page is talking about the "Battle of the Bulge" movie, which was released in '65...
Old 02-18-2008, 10:50 PM
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

Thanks, Prop, that adds to the small value of my eBay purchase.
I saw The Great Race, but can't remember exactly when.
Old 02-19-2008, 07:50 AM
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

The Great Race was also in '65
Old 02-19-2008, 08:08 AM
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

After I shattered my two Wenmac powered plastic T6's and put the engines in a cigar box my buddy saved his pennies and bought the Cox PT-19. The fuse was solid with a Baby Bee just as pictured in it. The wing held by rubber bands and the engine on a red plastic mount that also rubber banded to the firewall.

We knocked it nine ways to Sunday before it died and it would sure loop.

Later, drawn to the far away sounds of model airplane engines we streaked to the local school playground one Sunday when we saw the loops of control line planes over the roof top in the distance. There we had our first exposure to wood models and were stunned at the lightweight profile planes that were hand launched and used engines just like ours.

Not wanting to fabricate a metal tank so I could use my engines I saved and bought a Baby Bee so I could just bolt it to a fire wall and purchased my first powered model. It had a metal firewall and the dang thing would vibrate loose. My buddy again outsmarted me and bought a Little Wizard. Problem free and we went through a dozen of them each. The cigar box became a shoe box and full of engines, tanks, etc. We'd interchange piece's and back then it seemed just about any combination worked. Golden Bee was the best. And there were variations between the same model that didn't seem to matter. We liked K&B 1000 fuel too.

I have no idea how many models we built, how much tissue paper, ambroid and dope we went thru but it was a bunch.

Wish I knew what happened to that cigar box and shoe box! And I'm convinced that depiction is accurate. My memories are 1967ish.

A yellow Little Wizard resides in my garage still from introducing my young son years ago and the Black Widow that powered it just doesn't want to run on the tank. I've dissassembled it and not located the problem but she fires right up and you can keep it going by trickling fuel to the ports.

Been thinking about a Piece-o-cake and these posts have me inspired.

Thanks yall,

Clay

Old 02-19-2008, 09:30 AM
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view


ORIGINAL: Clay Walters
A yellow Little Wizard resides in my garage still from introducing my young son years ago and the Black Widow that powered it just doesn't want to run on the tank. I've dissassembled it and not located the problem but she fires right up and you can keep it going by trickling fuel to the ports.
Been thinking about a Piece-o-cake and these posts have me inspired.

Thanks yall,

Clay

I would guess its the tiny rear seal on the intake to the reed, its leaking air in...the combination of fuel..the effects of it gumming, and then being left outside for a few years will do that to a tiny rubber seal,,you might be able to cut a tiny piece of fuel line to replace it...Rog...get it running and bring it up to the reedy races in May....attached to a racer of course..
Old 02-19-2008, 10:53 AM
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view


ORIGINAL: flyinrog
I would guess its the tiny rear seal on the intake to the reed, its leaking air in...the combination of fuel..the effects of it gumming, and then being left outside for a few years will do that to a tiny rubber seal,,you might be able to cut a tiny piece of fuel line to replace it...Rog...get it running and bring it up to the reedy races in May....attached to a racer of course..
Rog,

Before even reading your reply, my thoughts were that it was the seal between the backplate and the tank intake tube also. Great minds and all that...

George
Old 02-19-2008, 11:17 AM
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Clay Walters
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

Thanks for the tip guys! I'll check it out.

Clay
Old 03-16-2008, 08:11 PM
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Clay Walters
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

Well, I finally got around to fooling with the engine again. Sure enough, the seal you mentioned was so hard I thought it was a washer. After about a dozen cuts I finally made a new seal from some fuel tubing and reassembled the tank to the engine. Still, runs the prime just fine but will not sustain off the tank. So I replaced the fuel line in the tank and blew on it while opening the needle valve. Just a tad over 3 turns out the air started going thru. Reassembled everything and tried again. No luck. So I undid everything and checked the reed for the umpteenth time. Seemed ok but I cleaned it off anyway and reinstalled with the retaining clip on the other way. Either way somewhat touches the reed but it still will move around. Am somewhat suspicious about this but am uncertain how to tell if the reed will work or not. All I know is the engine will not run off the tank and I have no idea where else to check.

Am open to suggestions,

Clay
Old 03-16-2008, 11:34 PM
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David Ingham
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

If you blow and suck through the reed valve, the air should go one way and not the other. The needle valve should be partly open at less than three turns, probably some opening unless it is tight shut.
Old 03-17-2008, 07:52 AM
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Clay Walters
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Default RE: Cox advertisement with exploded engine view

I'll try that next. Since everything else rubber/plastic had shrunk or hardened over the last 20 years it occurs to me that perhaps the reed is just too stiff. It doesn't seem so when I cleaned it but I now wonder if its time to cut open an old floppy and trim a piece of the disc materiel to the same dimensions as the reed presently in the engine. Any particular cautions to that process or do I just use a pair of scissors and go at it?

Thanks for all the coaching!

Clay

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