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Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

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Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

Old 02-14-2008, 10:17 PM
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tewitt1949
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Default Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

Hi all. I know this is the upper limit for planes in this forum, but I was just wondering if anyone has any opinions as far as power, torque, good, bad, etc. I aquired one a few weeks ago and needing info to determine what size/kind of plane to put it on. Thanks
Old 02-15-2008, 01:03 AM
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mtntopgeo
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

There is a fair amt of info on this forum for the Big Mig version. Try a search. My 2 cents; ................ Don't expect it to turn a 8x4 prop, Don't try to get any kind of hi performance out of it while using that ridiculous muffler in stock form, ( I think the muffler is a factory installed rev-limiter) & Do perform the mods that Japanman listed. My Big Mig has a special place.... in my "disappointment drawer". However it runs pretty decent with the muffler gutted (better if left off) & a 7x4 or 7x3 prop used. ...... George K.
Old 02-15-2008, 01:46 AM
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combatpigg
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

Sometimes an engine will have high rpm potential, but some key ingredient is holding it back. If the Norvel .15 was fairly popular with the RC combat guys, there has to be some simple tricks to wake one up. Like a mousse can pipe, or something they did internally. Hogging out the muffler and intake and using crankcase pressure might pay off?
Old 02-15-2008, 07:50 AM
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DeviousDave
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

I look at engines as though they come in two flavors: Mild (Japanese, British, German) and WILD!(anything made in Russia or the sattelite states). The latter don't like a lot of load and make power up way high. Russian engines typically run Strong out of the box, but they tend to be more "kit" engines than say an OS is. Norvel 1/2A's are an exception, but I can't think of any other Russian/Eastern European motors that you can just bolt a prop on and go fly.
Old 02-15-2008, 08:38 AM
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tewitt1949
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

Hi again. I didn't realize it bit it is a AME. I don't know if thats good or bad or how it differs from the Big Mig. Anyone know what the differance is between the two? I will do a search and see what else I can find. Thanks Terry
Old 02-15-2008, 10:39 AM
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

I have two AME .15's and two Big Mig .15's. All run very well. I would suggest trying it without changes before making mods.

Don't expect it to run like a so and so, it ain't a so and so. It either performs for what you need or doesn't.

The AME is a BB high-performance version, the Big Mig is a sleeve bearing sport version.

I run mine (either version) on an 8x4 prop.

George
Old 02-15-2008, 01:51 PM
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eroc144
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

Norvel 15's have always perplexed me. My .061 turns a 6x3 best, and my .074 turns a 7x3 best. Based on that I had high expectations for the .15 as it's double the size of the .074, but I get the best performance using 8x3 and 8x4 props. It absolutely thrashes on a 7x4, but that's barely above what I turn on the .074. I get similar performance from my Magnum .15, so perhaps the .061 and .074s are the anomalies?

EG
Old 02-15-2008, 06:59 PM
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combatpigg
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

7x4 or 7x5 turned by a good .15 near 20,000 rpm will put on a good show with the right plane.
Old 02-17-2008, 03:24 AM
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

Geez George,

What brand prop, what RPM, what fuel has left you so disappointed ??
Old 02-17-2008, 03:27 AM
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

Yes, the .06 and the .074 are exceptional but the .15 is pretty decent. I don't see what the problem is. Shoot, I just got a new, ball bearinged AME that I was going to convert to diesel. Now I wonder. I've been seriously out of touch,,, Japanman did a thread on the .15? What month?
Old 02-17-2008, 04:32 AM
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

Uh, Never mind, here it is,, http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_59..._2/key_/tm.htm Geez.

CP, yer rite. What blows me away is the quality of the parts. Casting, machining, neat features on the piston, all well thought out and executed. Of all the Norvels I posted to YouTube, only the .06 and .074 saw any honest flight time. The .15 only briefly and that was as a diesel on a much too large airplane.

The Norvel line seems to have been designed by some pretty smart people. What did they do wrong??

Japanman, your figures are pretty good. Any updates ?? Could you list the changes made so we can all recap?

My suspicion is that the entire Norvel line from .15 and up is seriously undercompressed. When I get the chance, this spring, I'm going to make up a collection of head buttons with varying head volumes and shapes. This'll be for stock plugs. A 400 RPM boost on a turbo doesn't seem much.


Old 02-17-2008, 05:36 AM
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

Hi Andy,
I just re-read my old posts to refresh my memory. There was only a 400rpms difference between the turbo head end the std had because the std head was shaved to up the compression a lot.

Actually the big deal with the bigmig is the exhaust port in the sleeve being partially blocked by the crankcase casting. I think they changed the spec of the sleeve after doing a run of cases- though the engine i have may have been assembled from leftover parts at the norvel factory? you would know better than me.

I was thinking about tweaking the sleeve to make it more like the AME- Does anyone know what the crankshaft diameter of the AME <BB version> is? Is it also 10mm?

I should try my engine with the APC prop cut to 7X4 to have some more relevant numbers. It does like the 7X3 now though... [8D]

J.M
Old 02-17-2008, 07:42 AM
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?


ORIGINAL: 1705493-AndyW

Geez George,

What brand prop, what RPM, what fuel has left you so disappointed ??

Andy, since you've found the old thread where the .15 Big Mig was discussed ( and cussed) I won't rehash all the old stuff. Yes the
performance (with muffler & 8x4 prop) is dismal, but there is another contributing factor that causes me to be somewhat biased. As others have mentioned, I too, was pretty much wowed by the "out of box performance" that my .061 & .074 Norvels had, & just assumed that the .15 was gonna give me the same results, when compared to other available .15 size sport engines. Just about all my .15 size engines are either Cox Conquests (RC sport version, not competion) or Enya .15-IV's. The 8x4 performance of the muffled Big Mig .15 is much less than the $15 used Enyas that I've gotten hold of, & they are of a 50 yr. old technology, both in material, & porting design. If this Big Mig ever loosens up enough where I can flip it over without using a heat gun, I'll probably use it on a HOB Spacewalker that I've just started. Sounds like overkill, but this plane is gonna be heavy, & I'm beginning to worry about a .09 being able to do the job. ....... George K.
Old 02-17-2008, 08:25 AM
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

Norvel AME .15 with the exhaust baffles removed spins a 7x4 nicely or in a speedier airframe try a 6.3x4.
No it is not as strong as a conquest but it will fit where a conquest won't (muffler) and is quite a bit lighter.
It may very well have a better power to weight ratio than a conquest.
Old 02-17-2008, 08:25 AM
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

Thanks for replying guys.

I latched on to a couple of .15s, both versions, and also several spare piston and cylinder sets. I'm now wondering if the issue isn't timing. The neat thing about Revlite is that you can cut and modify without worrying about the finish peeling.

What I'll do is check port timing on the .06 and the .074 and if the .15 is radically different, re-cut the ports on a spare cylinder to match. It just doesn't make sense that the smaller engines would be barnburners and the .15 such a slug. What if it were originally set up for a true tuned pipe? Visual inspection does not show excessive exhaust lead but you never know.

One more on the to-do list for the spring. [>:]
Old 02-17-2008, 10:12 PM
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

I think there is something fishey with my numbers regarding the std plug to turbo. From memory I skimmed the std head and optimised it so that the short plugs I have (o.s ) extend to the bottom of the threads- the threads were too deep as it was (maybe it was made for long plugs? .)
I am not sure if I have tached it with my second turbo head- the first had too much compression and I did tach it with it, so the new head would result in higher rpms.

Anyway, I just took the head of mine to look at the porting and it does seem a little hot without measuring anything. I would think that removing the base gasket and dropping the cylinder might make it spin a bigger prop like the 8X4 better. ( you`d need to add a stack of shims under the head of course.)

J.M
Old 02-18-2008, 04:19 PM
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?


ORIGINAL: Japanman

I think there is something fishy with my numbers regarding the std plug to turbo. From memory I skimmed the std head and optimized it so that the short plugs I have (o.s ) extend to the bottom of the threads- the threads were too deep as it was (maybe it was made for long plugs? .)
I am not sure if I have tached it with my second turbo head- the first had too much compression and I did tach it with it, so the new head would result in higher rpms.

Anyway, I just took the head of mine to look at the porting and it does seem a little hot without measuring anything. I would think that removing the base gasket and dropping the cylinder might make it spin a bigger prop like the 8X4 better. ( you`d need to add a stack of shims under the head of course.)

J.M
I'm thinking along those lines but also exhaust timing and duration relative to the transfer port timing and duration. Here with the .15, we have the same high tech materials and the same quality product as the .06 and the .074. What's missing? There appears to be no reason why it shouldn't be a real honker. That reminds me of the VA .020. An absolutely flawless, ABC, schneurle ported engine that had barely the power of a PeeWee .020. Part of the problem is the plug they provide with too low compression ratio. Part of the problem is timing. I came across some notes from way back and the timing is radically different from their .049. So one item on a growing, to-do list is to install a longer rod to bring the timing very close to their .049. You never know.

With the .15, I have the opportunity to cut shave the base to drop the timing and see what happens. Then I'll add enough gaskets to bring it back to where it originally was and then some by as many gaskets as I want. I have 7 of them. From there, I can cut the exhaust port higher and then try varying gasket combinations. Then, I can cut the transfers higher than the original, relative to the exhaust and try that combination of gaskets.

If this works, I'll come back and let y'all know what to do.

There's an old saying, timing is everything. We'll see.
Old 02-18-2008, 04:28 PM
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

That reminds me of the rig I made when I was trying to solve throttling issues on the TD .049. Pictured is a device made from the case of a BabeBee .049. The front was trimmed and tapped to take a custom made front end. It's not a reedie, the back plate is only there to provide a mount. The bolt holes are slotted to allow static adjustment on either side of the stock timing. It had no effect, one way or the other on throttling, but neither did it on power. At the time, I didn't take into consideration the cylinder port timing so that aspect wasn't investigated.

I guess I could make such a rig to take the running bits of the Norvel .15 but a much easier way is to shave the case and play with shims and gaskets.
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Old 02-22-2008, 03:40 AM
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

This isn't the answer but I thought this might be of some interest. I've installed the P/L of a GMS .32 into a Norvel .15 case. This makes it an odd size, a .22

At any rate, still looking for a four bolt head with 20mm spacing.
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Old 02-23-2008, 12:19 AM
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mylamo
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

If that hole will feed it you may have an early spring. I
always thought that I would get cabin fever living in the
north but if one has enough engine parts to come up with
hybrids like this it may be worth it.You keep sending ideas
south Andy,we'll keep sending grapefruit[8D]
Ralph
Old 02-23-2008, 12:56 AM
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AndyW
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

Thanks Ralph,

I have no idea what it's like not to see snow once a year. It's really not too bad. Gets light at 8 AM and dark at 4.30 PM during the worst, around the winter solstice, Dec.21. Some three months of that kind of nonsense so yes, that keeps you in the shop when the winds are howling, the temps are 30C below and the wind chill goes to 45 below. We get about a week of that. So Dec. Jan. and Feb. are pretty much exclusive shop time.

Summers make up for it, though. Imagine getting home from work at 5 PM, having supper and then, spending four hours at the field. Sun comes up at 5 AM and says goodnight at 10 PM at the best of it. Good thing too. This year I'll have a dozen or so engine projects to test and run.

Old 02-23-2008, 01:26 AM
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

After re-reading JMs' Norvel .15 thread it seems obvious that when he blended the top of the exhaust port in the liner with the mis-matched case, the gain was noted with an undersized prop. The performance with a 8x4 prop was still pathetic. Without knowing what the exhaust timing is set at now, I've got to assume that it is too high to turn a 8x4 equal to your basic LA .15, [which would be about 16,000]. Sounds to me that Norvel could have goofed on that batch of liners. The R/C combat guys used these engines with the standard 8x3 props and had no trouble reaching the class rpm limit.
Old 02-23-2008, 04:54 AM
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

I've been using a Norvel.15 on a 34" span 3 line control line model, mine is a sweet engine. I'm using 10% nitro and an 8x5 MA prop. Starts easily and idles great now it's run in. It had a tight spot at TDC, I'm told the Revlite engines don't start to perform until they've been run for an hour or so. Seemed to be the case with my one.
Old 11-15-2008, 05:41 PM
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Default RE: Norvel RC .15 w/muffler, Opinions please?

ya norvels have to get broken in good to perform i have a bigmig 15 with a 7 x 3 on it and i tacked it at 22,000 rpm insane. I found to get the best power you have to get a good oring between the block and muffler.

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