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Going electric

Old 08-30-2008, 09:13 AM
  #26  
digital_trucker
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Default RE: Going electric

I like small airplanes, I just want to be able to build and fly them just like their larger brethren. This requires an engine MADE like their larger brethren, and it's certainly possible (it's just not being done). There simply is no reason you can't have a small glow engine that has all the features standard in every other modern engine, while taking into account a couple of peculiar needs inherent in small engine (turbo plugs being the prime difference). Any engine of any displacement that lacks the common modern conventions has only two uses, either as a novelty or for competition. Novelty and competition are fine, but there's a whole untapped market for everyday sport flying.

I'm definitely sensing an elitist and 'purist' mindset. This is why 1/2A is dead, for all intents and purposes, and why electrics have taken over the small plane market. 1/2A hasn't modernized in line with the rest of the IC world....by and large it's still all about decades-old technology and standards.
Old 08-30-2008, 09:39 AM
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Default RE: Going electric

Yeah, 1/2A engines are nostalgic to say the least, the norvel .074 was the pinnical design of 1/2A engines, but faded away and to never be seen again. So what were left with is the second best engines on the market, but they're not complete junk, yes turds in some shape or form, but I don't see korn sticking out of them. I still fly my 1/2A engined planes, because of economy, I figure about 30 flights a quart( I spill about 2 ozs), my topflight p-47 burns 16 ozs of 15% every flight, don't even get me started on my moki 2.10 I had in the pica waco. 24 ozs a flight.
I do agree that we may not have to grow up, but we do have to grow old, as well as pay more for these engines. You can only trim the fat soo much in production before the quality starts to go down in order to make it cheaper. If norvel .074's were still in production, I'd pay 100 for each motor, why? Because they're worth every red cent. (russian joke) I hope that some day the norvels come back or some other manufacturer steps up and makes something similar to that little jem. If I hit the lottery, I'd fund a small engine development project to revive the .074, but they would be about 100 a engine, maybe you could market them with a few spare glow plugs/heads to make it seem worth while investment. I remember my buddy sent one of his RB buggy engines back to the manufacture because it was worn out, they rebuilt it for a few bucks and shipped it back to him. That's customer care and commitment to me. But with most small engines now a days, there is no customer support or service to speak of, so were all left to tinker and fiddle till we get it right.
Old 08-30-2008, 09:58 AM
  #28  
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Default RE: Going electric

There may be some VA RC engines still floating around? DT, if you ever get the chance, there is your engine. I use mine almost exclusively for 3D with a 6x2 prop and the engine has infinite control, great throttle reponse.
Old 08-30-2008, 10:59 AM
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Default RE: Going electric

I know, I'd really like a VA MkII. That looks to have everything an engine should (so why don't the chinese make a copy of THAT engine?). Good luck finding one, owners aren't likely to want to part with one (can't blame 'em either). If someone has one or two, I'd be willing to consider a trade (I have some MP Jet PB R/C engines, and I could be talked out of one of my Norvel .074's - none of which have been run).
Old 08-30-2008, 11:36 AM
  #30  
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Default RE: Going electric

This is not a problem at all as I see it. Any forum member fed up with the archaic technology involved in proper 1/2A flying can send me all of his or her .049 and .051s. I'll be sure to take them off your hands so you can feel free to enjoy electric flight absent of any guilt. I'm just doing this as my part in ensuring the hobby of RC flying stays alive and well. In fact, I encourage all forum members to immediatly "see the light" of the future of electric flying, abandon all of your slimer 1/2A's and send them all to me right away, then I will drop off the forum and never interfere with "proper" RC flying again.

I feel this is appropriate, if I can contribute to freeing my fellow flyers of any stigmas by holding on to all remaining 1/2A engines in the world, then I will take the bullet as it were and simply drop out of society and cloister myself at a local field and perform the dangerouse mad scientist experiments with glow engines. No one need ever hear from me again, save for a distant buzzing sound over the horizon.....
Old 08-30-2008, 01:03 PM
  #31  
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Default RE: Going electric

I'll take a norvel .074 off your hands, heck I have like 6 spare plugs for it, I still have yet to burn out the original.
Old 08-30-2008, 02:29 PM
  #32  
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Default RE: Going electric

DT, without a doubt the most impressive 1/2A demo I've ever seen was with a Formosa [GWS?] on brushless / lipo power. It performed as good as any TOC sized 3D / Pattern job I've ever seen. This plane can go from floating around like a trainer to anything you can imagine.
Old 08-30-2008, 04:01 PM
  #33  
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Default RE: Going electric


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

DT, without a doubt the most impressive 1/2A demo I've ever seen was with a Formosa [GWS?] on brushless / lipo power. It performed as good as any TOC sized 3D / Pattern job I've ever seen. This plane can go from floating around like a trainer to anything you can imagine.
And how exactly is that electric Formosa flight a demo of 1/2A??...

Raw power wise and size wise, that Formosa was much more like a .15 powered glow airplane, not an .049 model.


Old 08-30-2008, 05:30 PM
  #34  
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Default RE: Going electric

Thomas, I asked the guy who was flying it how much it weighed and he said 12 ozs, IIRC. Pretty hard to make a .15 size plane come in at twice that. Sizewise, it looked small enough to me to be "1/2A". I've always wanted to have that combo for back yard flying.
Old 08-30-2008, 05:52 PM
  #35  
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Default RE: Going electric

The best back yard flier I've ever had was a GWS pico moth, you could fly it around bushes and do the " blazing touch-n-go's,... at 7 MPH". It was truly a back yard flier, maybe a 70 x 70 area needed at most.
Old 08-30-2008, 06:08 PM
  #36  
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Default RE: Going electric

They make 2 sizes of Formosa,
the original s300/350 and the bigger s400 size FormosaII.
The old s300 sized one did ok on the geared can at 75w,
but yeah, the bigger one looks like a .15 would be at home

Used to fly at a place that had the electrics there in the morning transitioning to glows around 10-11. It didnt take much wind to have this guys gws TigerMoth landing with a negative ground speed
Old 08-30-2008, 08:09 PM
  #37  
Thomas B
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Default RE: Going electric


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

Thomas, I asked the guy who was flying it how much it weighed and he said 12 ozs, IIRC. Pretty hard to make a .15 size plane come in at twice that. Sizewise, it looked small enough to me to be "1/2A". I've always wanted to have that combo for back yard flying.

Span on the original small Formosa is about 35" and wing area is about 250 sq in. Pretty close to 1/2A size. I was actually thinking about the larger newer Formosa, that is 42" span and about 350 sq in....that one is more .15 sized.

In reality, all the gas engine comparisons are too limiting for electric, since you can pick any level of power and are not restricted to the power band of a given engine size.
Old 08-30-2008, 08:40 PM
  #38  
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Default RE: Going electric

DT,
Don't spend $20,000,000.00 of your projected winnings on a factory to make $100.00 engines for sale!
Spend $1,000,000.00 on a serious home machine shop and enjoy making your own.
Peter
Old 08-30-2008, 08:40 PM
  #39  
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Default RE: Going electric

I agree, glow 1/2A is far to limiting for the creative members of this forum. Nobody should have to suffer through the embarassment of showing up at a flying field with a Cox .049. I again offer myself as a sacrificial lamb to the god of electric and will take the sin of 1/2A glow upon myself and stand ready to recieve all remaining glow engines in the world to my doorstep. Do your worst, I am ready to be showered with unwanted .049's......
Old 08-30-2008, 08:56 PM
  #40  
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Default RE: Going electric

TJ, it's practically a religious thing, huh? If you can 1 flip start a TD, you're an archbishop, 1 flip start a PAW .033, you're a cardinal, 1 flip start a GZ .061, you're a pope, flip the switch on an electric, any drunk monk can do that
Old 08-30-2008, 09:21 PM
  #41  
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Default RE: Going electric

Go ahead, make fun. It's not hard to see why there aren't any decent 1/2A engines made any more, and why the ones made recently AREN'T made any more. 1/2A is dead, it's gone the way of reed radios and rubber escapements. Sure, some still fly them, but they're museum pieces and/or curiosities (with the exception of a few special competition classes). If WE THE HOBBYISTS don't take it seriously, it's no surprise that engine manufacturers don't either.

For all of you people who whine about not wanting to pay more than $50 for a decent 1/2A engine, have fun when the only ones that are available are burned out wrecks and collectibles going for BIG bucks.

Long story short, the reason there are no quality 1/2A engines made is because we don't make our desires loud and clear to the engine manufacturers. As this thread has proven, the 1/2A community is perfectly happy to live in an era 40 years gone.

We the 1/2A flyers deserve to be in the position we're in, dealing with $7-$50 slugs of indeterminate quality and poor performance. We finally get the radio gear to make 1/2A practical and that will allow us to realize the potential in 1/2A, and we throw it away by insisting on living in the past and not taking our favorite class seriously.

We have only ourselves to blame, and the true price will be known in the not-too-distant future. We deserved it.
Old 08-30-2008, 09:22 PM
  #42  
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Default RE: Going electric


ORIGINAL: combatpigg

TJ, it's practically a religious thing, huh? If you can 1 flip start a TD, you're an archbishop, 1 flip start a PAW .033, you're a cardinal, 1 flip start a GZ .061, you're a pope, flip the switch on an electric, any drunk monk can do that
Isn't it? I have my Testors 1/2A cloak and cowl, some Cox candles and a very frightened Norvel chicken.........
Old 08-30-2008, 10:07 PM
  #43  
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Default RE: Going electric

DT,
It seems you've been enlightened by the evil spirits of modern engines, ones that idle(never been heard before words to 1/2a), have real mufflers and a gizmo called a throttle. Steer clear of such demons and pray for spring starts and reed valves like any good, moral 1/2a worshipper would do. Do not!... be tempted to see the dark side of endulgance and lust for these things. Remember, 1/2a, is simple, way of living, uncluttered by the march of modernization of mankind. Damn you glow plug, we want our glow head!
Can you here the cry of the carrots?, amen!
(tool)
Old 08-30-2008, 10:13 PM
  #44  
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Default RE: Going electric

DT, a company like Cyclon could make what you are looking for but it would probably have to cost $250. If you took their standard engine, remove SPI and reduce timing, add quality muffler and carb and there you go. They would need some advance orders, not sure how many hundred they would require?
Old 08-30-2008, 10:32 PM
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Default RE: Going electric

OS could do it right, too...and so could ThunderTiger, if they'd just pay attention.
Old 08-30-2008, 11:53 PM
  #46  
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Default RE: Going electric

Digital_Trucker;

I started in 1/2a with Cox, and still use them, I guess it makes me a purist. I have not built anything but .049 models in over 15+ years. I like just about everything that flys, but stick to the 1/2a class myself.

Its not about the engines themselves, but flying 1/2a. I have never even bought a Norvel, and based on what is stated over and time again here, they are better overall or otherwise than the older Cox stuff. I have my reasons, but lets say I like to use the only American made engine that was built here. Thats worth something (to me), and is also a connection to the past.

I do see and understand your position, things could be much better. Things are where they are, but its not the fault of the people here. I prefer to think we keep it all alive and kicking.

If you want to be a force for change, you need a position focus, like a club, group, or membership org..

That may help to start the kind of changes you are looking at, and allow others to keep doing their thing around others of like interest.

You sound like the drive to do somthing along these lines is there, perhaps that would be a start in the right direction.
Old 08-31-2008, 02:10 AM
  #47  
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Default RE: Going electric


ORIGINAL: digital_trucker

OS could do it right, too...and so could ThunderTiger, if they'd just pay attention.
OS has done it, but they only make a limited run of 1/2a engines for a select few distributors,,I have no idea what the performance of one is, but like the Toki, it looks good,,I dont know if anyone has run one or not as it seems to be a ready made collectors item...thunder tiger is making what they know how to make...and they are improving on some models like the .18, perhaps those improvements will trickle down to the .07 but only if the .07 is selling now would they have reason to "new and improved" it in the future...I had one until a pine tree jump in front of it....I screwed it up taking it apart....Rog
Old 08-31-2008, 02:27 AM
  #48  
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Default RE: Going electric


ORIGINAL: digital_trucker

Every OS engine I ever had was flip-and-go, not flipflipflipflipOWDARNITflipflipflipPOPOPflipflipf lipflipflipflipflipflipflipTWISTflipflipflipflipfl ipOWCHflipflipPOPPOPflipflipflip

Sounds like me when I was playing with my old Gmark and the two original OK Cub .049's. But without the OWDARNIT part.

No 1/2A engine has ever truly had a good carb. Some worked in a tolerable manner but none of the options ever had the same degree of control as any electric system has. But then electric motors just don't make the right sounds so like anything in life it's about choices and compromises.

I'll continue to dabble with engines and 1/2A engines in particular as long as I'm able to fly and love every second of it since these cantankerous little deamons are in my blood from the early days. But I sure do love the new electric stuff as well for when I want a truly effective speed control.
Old 08-31-2008, 08:17 AM
  #49  
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Default RE: Going electric

OS could do it right, too...and so could ThunderTiger, if they'd just pay attention.
It's not attention, it's economics with a dash of statistics. There just isn't enough demand at our end of the bell curve for a manufacturer to tool up for an engine run, and that's even if every 1/2a'r would buy 2 engines a year at $200 each. We're well below the volume of engines moved in the .40 - .60 range. Giant scale is in a similar part of the bell curve, and how many thousands do they pay for their DAs, YS, et al?

EG
Old 08-31-2008, 08:27 AM
  #50  
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Default RE: Going electric

ORIGINAL: Remby

If you want to be a force for change, you need a position focus, like a club, group, or membership org..

That may help to start the kind of changes you are looking at, and allow others to keep doing their thing around others of like interest.

You know, that's not a bad idea. I'm not really intending to bash to traditional 1/2A style...I just want to see the class brought up-to-date. I know people still fly Ohlsson gassers too, but they're not ALL that's still available. Anyone have any ideas about how to go about starting something like a membership org? Or is there maybe one of those already somewhere? I know there are speed societies and free-flight groups, but does anyone know if a sport 1/2A organisation exists? I'm not finding one with google.

Eroc - I'm not so sure about that....look at how many odd-ball sizes of engines have been popping up recently. There's an engine made for every size plane you can think of, until you get below .09-.10, then it all turns to thbbbbt.

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