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"1/2 A" & "1/8 A" airplanes These are the small ones...more popular now than ever.

Going electric

Old 08-29-2008, 11:18 AM
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digital_trucker
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Default Going electric

I've had it up to my eyeballs with small engines. There's not a single one available to buy that is both RELIABLE, POWERFUL, and designed for standard R/C flight. My latest foray into crap involved the vaunted PAW .049. What an unreliable turd. I know what some of you will say; "well, you just gotta know how to work it right." My answer to that is, if the engine has been pre-run, and you follow the instructions TO THE LETTER, it should always start reliably. I durn near wore out my index finger flipping this so-called 'gem'. I actually got it running a couple of times, but it's seriously lacking in power and consistency. Not to mention the fact that it won't start reliably.

The main problem with EVERY small engine available today is that people simply won't consider paying what it's worth (they have no problem shelling out big $$$ for an electric system, but still insist on a decades-old price). Until an engine manufacturer makes a modern, reliable, and powerful small engine (it's certainly possible) I'm not messing with any more of them. Unlike most people, I'd gladly pay $100 or more for a properly designed engine (because that's what it's worth).

It's no surprise that 1/2A has been relegated to a curiosity, suitable only for those with a deep interest in them. The class doesn't deserve anything better than that, and it won't until a fundamental change in the way it's fans choose to deal with the hobby.

Phooey, I've had enough of 'em. They're not suitable for someone who wants to actually fly and enjoy the hobby, they're only good for someone who'd rather spend their time tinkering with a cantankerous paperweight.
Old 08-29-2008, 11:32 AM
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Default RE: Going electric

Well now DT, I thought you were a big fan of the AP .061?

Kidding aside, agree with many of "the symptoms" you've noted (although I'm less convinced of the root causes) and lately I've sold all but a couple of my favorite Norvels. The little guys are a lot of fun, but I'm moving into .15/.25 engines which is a meatier part of the bell curve, although not by much! At these "larger" sizes I can even contemplate such luxuries as landing gear, flaps, and extra piece of balsa here and there.

Of course it also means that I'll spend less time at my local school field and more time at the RC field, but that's not entirely bad either.

EG
Old 08-29-2008, 12:47 PM
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Andrew
 
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Default RE: Going electric


ORIGINAL: eroc144

The little guys are a lot of fun, but I'm moving into .15/.25 engines which is a meatier part of the bell curve, although not by much! At these "larger" sizes I can even contemplate such luxuries as landing gear, flaps, and extra piece of balsa here and there.


EG
EG –

I also consider the .15/.25 size range to be almost ideal. The planes are small enough to easily transport, don’t cost a fortune to build and cover and give good flight times on less fuel. Plus, as you noted, they’re far enough up in the power band to add a few doo-dahs without serious penalty.

The plane I learned to fly with had an ENYA .15 III TV. I had scaled it up from a .049 size Mayfly (currently on Dave Fritzke’s site) to a 42†span. When I saw it listed, I may just have to build another for memories sake – it’s quite utilitarian. I painted mine orange and called it the “Orange Bomb†– it was UGLY! My original had a Rand Galloping Ghost and hobby horsed all over the sky. If I put another together, I think I’ll have to stick with full propo this time.

Old 08-29-2008, 02:03 PM
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eroc144
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Default RE: Going electric

Andrew - I completely agree. Getting all of my gear in the trunk is great, and I'd prefer not to schlep a trailer to the field. Plus, I can fly 1/2a at a school yard, but not the big stuff... That said, someday I would like to build a fully decked out F4u Corsair with retracts, cowl flaps, folding wings, etc etc etc. It would look pretty neat next to an Ace Simple Series Corsair!

I just scaled up my .074 Pacer plans to fit a spare Magnum .15 I have laying around and start building shortly. The .074 Pacer flew really well and I'm looking forward to the Magnum 15's extra power. I have retracts and flaps drawn in, but will decide which way to go once I sit down at the building table. Cool vs weight is a harder decision when weight is less of an issue...

Orange Bomb, eh? The first RC plane we ever built was an H-Ray and we plunked a Fox .15 on the front thinking we were gonna scorch the clouds. Imagine our shock when it barely got off the ground, and in short order we replaced the Fox with an OS .25 FSR. The H-Ray was a dull cream color with burgundy trim, and if I recall it wasn't much of a looker either - Perfect for a first RC plane. I think we eventually crashed it into the river.

EG

DT - sorry to hijack your thread!
Old 08-29-2008, 02:05 PM
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Raymond LeFlyr
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Default RE: Going electric

I'd like to respond - but I'm not sure which "side" I'd come down on. Two-stroke, four stroke. Gas, glow. Glow, diesel. Internal combustion, electric. Big engine, little engine. Good news, bad news. Pros and cons. Hate the Yankees, love the Yankees. Ditto Red Sox. Twiddle Dee, Twiddle Dum. Lions and tigers and bears, oh my.

But, "ye can take away my flea drum, but you nay canna take away my TD .010!"
Old 08-29-2008, 03:15 PM
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mtntopgeo
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Default RE: Going electric

Yeah, the present supply of lil' rc engines leaves something to be desired. However, my problem(s) aren't with the engines, ( Got several MP Jet & Norvel .061 's that start/run fine) but are more the result of my crude (poor) building skills. Trying to build a 200-to-220 sq in (wing area) plane for a .061, & reaching the 12 oz target is impossible for me (can't get down to 14 OZs). As others have metioned here, weight & size are real challenges. Finding myself playing more with my Enya .09 power-plants. Not too much of a challenge to get a 270-to-300 sq in plane put together in the 18-to-20 oz range. Yes, it's very tempting to go to electric. (Just looked up some prices) Tower-Pro 2409-12 motor PLUS 25 amp esc PLUS your choice of prop, = $18.75. Another $19.95 gets you a 2200 (actual reviews say its not quite that high) MAH 3 cell LIPO. Unfortunately, even though the performance is great, something seems to be missing when that set-up is pulling a plane thru the air. ................George K.
Old 08-29-2008, 03:15 PM
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Default RE: Going electric

Umm, sorry but if you have good "field habits" these little engines are very dependable. Clean fuel, filtered in the jug, and you will almost never have crap in your lines. Next issue is a healthy glow plug and battery, easy to tend to this one. With Norvels, the muffler does want to fly off, just safety wire it on, problem solved. Using Hayes 2 oz tanks has eliminated many field problems for me, but the clunk can slide forward after a hard landing. Outside of all this, just keeping an eye on loose parts helps. The one single and greatest contributor to guaranteeing that I have fun with .049s is having that little Hornet starter!!!
Old 08-29-2008, 03:38 PM
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Default RE: Going electric

I know how DT feels, but I like to tinker, and since I've started playing with my PAW I've noticed not as may mosquito bites. I have always liked 20 size planes, cheap, easy to build, and the motors are easy to run.
Old 08-29-2008, 03:46 PM
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Default RE: Going electric

Every OS engine I ever had was flip-and-go, not flipflipflipflipOWDARNITflipflipflipPOPOPflipflipf lipflipflipflipflipflipflipTWISTflipflipflipflipfl ipOWCHflipflipPOPPOPflipflipflip
Old 08-29-2008, 04:16 PM
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Raymond LeFlyr
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Default RE: Going electric

Daggummit,

As usual CP is right . . . well less wrong than most of us. Every time I start cussin' the reedies (for example) I come home and admit to my wife that it was my fault for not doing - whatever. But I would never tell anyone in the Carolina 1/2A Crew that. So keep it just between us expurts.

FWIW, I use the Miller 1/2A starter without exception if I want the liddle engine to start. Even on my PAWs (don't tell Eric). Never less than 25% fuel with 20% oil (half n half). I try to use fresh alkyline (did I spell that right) batteries if I remember to buy thenm twice a year (just before Rog's events y' know).

Speaking of Rog's events, is there any truth to the rumor that there will be a special "attraction" (or should I say "attractionS") this time?
Old 08-29-2008, 04:35 PM
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Default RE: Going electric

I have had decent luck with 1/2A engines, but then I dont really expect a lot from them, so there is little room for disappointment. I just flew a Herr Aqua Star I built years ago, but never even started, with a Norvel .061 followed the instructions and it started fine (with help from an electric starter while the needle valve was adjusted). Now it starts right up without the starter. I even have an old plastic crankcase Testors which runs fine on 15% nitro. My main problem is cost versus benefits, I already have all the junk that goes along with bigger engines and do not like spending $10 bucks for a glow plug and $25 for a gallon of 1/2A fuel to support my little engines. I own a couple of the fancy "regular" glow plug heads, which work fine, but that is even more money on a tiny engine that could have been manufactured to use regular glow plugs. That said, the 1/2A stuff is still fun to play with on a small field and I treat it as a niche in my hobby, as apposed to the main part.

As an aside, I find that most 1/2A sized planes will work with a .10 with a little balancing. TT and OS both make .10s which are not really that much more than a .061 and use everyday glow plugs and fuel. You pay a weight penalty, but only the smallest of 1/2A planes are bothered by it and maybe those are better left to true 1/2A fans anyway.
Old 08-29-2008, 05:52 PM
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Default RE: Going electric

Bum, last time a placed an order, Nelson plugs were $4 each.

I run them on the same fuel I use with .40s.......mainly 15% nitro.

You get about 64 flights per gallon.
Old 08-29-2008, 05:53 PM
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Default RE: Going electric

ORIGINAL: digital_trucker

<snip>.....flipflipflipflipOWDARNITflipflipflipPOP OPflipflipflipflipflipflipflipflipflipTWISTflipfli pflipflipflipOWCHflipflipPOPPOPflipflipflip
LOL!!!

I understand your frustration, but your description cracked me up - still got tears in my eyes.
Old 08-29-2008, 06:51 PM
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BumRC
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Default RE: Going electric

Combatpigg, I hadnt tried the Nelson stuff... I was refering to the Norvel and AP bell style plugs. I run conversion heads on my .049 engines for the most part so I can use regular glow plugs. My fuel comment related to my personal financial status, where I have to ration fuel purchases and I have bigger planes which already need fuel so another $25 per gallon is hard on my pocket book. Thats just my situation, but when I can afford it, I do love the little ones. Actually, I bought a few 1/2A control line kits when I got back from Iraq to try them out, I think the Cox Sure Starts are perfect for C/L.
Old 08-29-2008, 07:13 PM
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Default RE: Going electric

Bum, the standard conversion heads will lose up to 10% of your power. The Nelson conversion adapter costs about $12 and the power will be about the same as original. You can use your everyday fuel with 1/2A engines, just add about $2 worth of castor to each gallon, it won't hurt your larger engines, either.
Old 08-29-2008, 07:53 PM
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Default RE: Going electric

CP, Ill check that out, thanks for the heads up!
Old 08-29-2008, 07:59 PM
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Default RE: Going electric

Sounds like Digital Trucker should changes forums. Maybe hobbies !
Old 08-29-2008, 08:10 PM
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Default RE: Going electric

I have been messing with these little Darling psycho BIPOLAR engines for way to long. I remember getting Black Widows for $6.95. I started with hand flipping them on the plastic U-control planes for hours to get a single flight of 20 seconds before it hits the ground and we had to have Mom help fill out the order form to get the replacement parts.

The biggest thing I have found with these engines is fuel. If the fuel is no good and I mean some brands just do not seem to run in the little guys. Then glow plugs. I have burned up and ruined more Cox Tee Dee engines then I care to try and remember. I have sent the spinner back through the case in some crashes.

I have been running a couple of AP 0.061's. I was using 20% heli fuel and they sort of ran OK. I switched to YS 20-20 blend Power Master and they ran great. It takes about 2 seconds of the electric starter and they are running. I had a AP on a Half Wit. When I mounted it, the engine had about 5 bench runs. I had about 5 or 6 flights with the 20% heli. The idle was around 3-4K RPM. I was not real happy with that. After I switched to the YS 20-20 it seemed like I had to lean it every flight for the next 10 or so flights. The idle cam way down and it acted just like my other engines, I could idle for a long time. I was at about 20-25 flights with the Half Wit when I tore up a servo and did the most beautiful inverted flat spin into a wire fence tearing the carb out of the case and ruining the case. I have thought about getting a case for it so I can have 3 of the AP's.

These engine will drive you crazy and give you the most fun you can have in a small package. So they are the best of both worlds. :O

Dru.
Old 08-29-2008, 08:12 PM
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Default RE: Going electric

Why should he? He is a friend of ours here. He always has something interesting to talk about. He just needs to go to one of those "reprogramming camps" in Utah for a week or 2.

Too bad we couldn't reach out to Raymond in time
Old 08-29-2008, 08:19 PM
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Default RE: Going electric

Bum, look up kittingittogether on google. Mr. Driskill sells a lot of good stuff to keep your 1/2A engines happy. He also has some killer props.
Old 08-29-2008, 08:29 PM
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Default RE: Going electric

The .15 is also my favorite size engine/plane (The super Pacer, the Peppermint Pattie...)
but I flew the TT 07 this spring and it worked just fine. $50-60 and it works fine for me.
Sure it's no Zyklon/Shmora 28k thing, but flew the Whizard well.
Dave
Mayfly:
http://my.pclink.com/~dfritzke/mayfly.pdf
Old 08-29-2008, 08:30 PM
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digital_trucker
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Default RE: Going electric

I fully admit the AP Wasp/Norvel are good running and reliable engines. Too bad they're essentially cobbled-up C/L engines. There's only been ONE engine I've seen smaller than .09 that's had everything it needs for proper R/C use, and that's the Norvel .074. There hasn't been a proper 1/2A engine yet (that' I've seen). I picked up a few MP Jet .061's, but I can barely get the thing to run....which doesn't inspire me to try out the others. Not to mention they're horribly heavy (the lack of an adjustable airbleed is a serious failing too, apparently it's horribly technical to dill a hole and thread in a screw).

All a proper R/C 1/2A engines needs are the following:

A proper muffler
A proper fully adjustable carb
Light weight
Good power
Reliability (flip and go out of the box)

If an engine lacks any of the above, it's a merely a curiosity and nothing more.

I hope someone makes one commercially before I die, but since most 1/2A enthusiasts feel it's against their religion to pay more than $50 for an engine it probably won't happen. So, I'm left with two choices; go lekky or make my own dang engine (I plan to do both).
Old 08-30-2008, 03:18 AM
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Default RE: Going electric

So, I'm left with two choices; go lekky or make my own dang engine (I plan to do both).
Well that sounds much better already, the title of this thread had me scared for a while...

Rather than going through the different engines and their good and bad points here, the main problem as I see it is that they're not being made anymore (Cox, Norvel, MP Jet etc.)

I do think that the TT07 is a very good candidate for a proper RC engine in this class. There are two major issues with it though as I see it:
i) the regular plug is a real power rubber, so it needs a Turbo head (or Nelson of course, but turbo plugs are readily available even in my LHS)
ii) the bearing of the crank is really sloppy, this part I hate the most... So they did made a bronz-bushed one but they also made it sloppy right out of the box.[:@] (I don't know how quickly they will wear out completely, but it just feels so wrong...)

Appart from that it has all the points pointed out above, quote:

A proper muffler
A proper fully adjustable carb
Light weight
Good power
Reliability (flip and go out of the box)

Yes, I do think that it is lightweight, it is the proper muffler that gives it an additional weight compared to a Norvel .074, which in turn is the lightest engine around...

If you can make your own engine, then surely you can make a new head for a TT 07 (button head type)
Old 08-30-2008, 03:25 AM
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Default RE: Going electric

Just flew last tuesday a 1/2a plane I have been flying from the start of 2006, it is it's third flight season. It was the 286th sucessful flight. The engine is a Tee Dee based .049, using a Medallion carb and needle assembly, no throttle. Runs about 7 minutes on the tank, 33.6 hours of powered flight.

Glides about 2 minutes each flight, that adds another 9.53 hours to the plane for it's total hours of 43.1 on the model.

At 40 miles per hour average (a guess), it has flown close to 1724 miles, using around 13 gallons of fuel.

This plane is now in second place all time behind it's year old sister model, it has nearly 100 more flights.

No chicken stick, or electric starters, just flip to start.

So D.T. ; I have felt your pain.

Just fixed a minor crack in the wing, its ready to go again. I know you want a throttle, but for me the old ways make it special. The flying is it, the 1/2a engines get her done, just shake those prop hits off.
Old 08-30-2008, 08:57 AM
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Default RE: Going electric

Sounds like you really want a small glow engine with electric motor type performance and reliabality. You might be happier with with electric.


In the car is a Norvel powered fligtstreak and a AP wasp (no carb) lite hawk on a baldder. They all start and run verry well. Complain all you want, I am going flying.

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