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Another Guillows RC conversion - a few Q's

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Old 06-25-2009, 01:32 AM
  #1  
dabigboy
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Default Another Guillows RC conversion - a few Q's

Hi all....I'm a long-time nitro/.40-size flyer, but current circumstances got me looking for something smaller and less messy to fly, so I'd have a little more flexibility on when and where I could go flying. My dad and I built a small Cub back in the day, I believe it was a Guillows model, for free-flight only. For whatever reason, I got to looking into the Guillows kits in combination with the newer generation of micro RC gear. I was pleasantly surprised to find a wealth of info here from folks who had already done similar conversions. I've gleaned a considerable amount of info from this and other sites, but I could still use some guidance.

So here's what I've got: I picked up a Cessna 180 and the 24" Aeronca Champ on ebay. The Champ is the one I really want to build, so that's what I'll be focusing on. I happen to have a couple of HS-55 servos from my deceased Axe CP heli (let the battery get too low while flying over a river....ouch...fortunately most of the electronics survived), so I was planning on using those and buying a micro RX/ESC on ebay or something. Then it occurred to me that since all the heli mixing from my Axe happens in the transmitter, I could probably just swap crystals and use the Axe RX with my old Futaba TX. Then I remembered that by some wild coincidence, I had ended up with an Axe on the same freq. as my planes already. Sweet! I tested it out and here's what I found:

Channels 3 (throttle), 4 (roll), and 5 (pitch) still work. I couldn't get the rudder channel to work, unless it's the one the ESC is plugged into currently, for power (first slot). I may try plugging the ESC/battery into another free channel and seeing if rudder is on the first slot. Anyway, for this reason, and mostly for the fact that I'm new to micro RC and need to keep things light and simple, I'm thinking I'll just build the model with rudder/elevator/throttle control, but I'm not sure yet (I have some no-name servos that came with my Axe that are the same dimensions and about the same weight as HS-55's).

The RX is small and light enough that I think it will do fine in the Champ. I'll probably get a 750'ish-ma 2-cell lipo for power, and I'll have to buy another ESC because the one for my Axe seems to be toast. The ESC and powerplant are my main concerns right now. I have some extra tail rotor motors from my Axe, one is a new GWS CN12-RXC, a direct replacement for the Axe's stock tal motor. I'm pretty sure this would be more than enough power (60 grams @ 7.2 volts), but I'm concerned about weight......then again, from what I'm reading about some of the Guillows kits and CG, I may need some weight up front anyway. I've read about using CR-ROM motors, but it looks like that requires a lot of machine work and winding of wires on the motor, no? Not to mention a more $$$ brushless ESC. But if there's a way to make the CD-ROM motor work that isn't particularly difficult for an electric newbie like myself, I'd certainly be interested.

I was leaning towards the brushed GWS ESC's I see on ebay all the time (if I go with the brushed GWS motor mentioned above), usually rated at like 8 to 15 amps, but is this too big? Is there any compelling reason (besides weight) that you can't used a high rated ESC on small motors?

I'm still a little torn on whether or not to set up ailerons...it would be nice, but I don't want to make it too heavy and sacrifice flyability for a little extra control. Anyways, I'll be sure to post pics of my progress once I get started on this little guy. Should be a lot of fun! I'm already inspired by the pretty little white and red Guillows Champ with wheel fairings that I saw on this site.
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Old 06-25-2009, 01:52 AM
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Default RE: Another Guillows RC conversion - a few Q's

The models I've seen with only rudder for turning use a "cartoonish" amount of dihedral. Ailerons, especially on a Guillows model adds to the complexity to set up. The models you mention would do well set up either way.
I'm not sure what to tell you about dihedral angle, I usually build in what looks right compared to other proven designs I've seen.
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Old 06-25-2009, 01:04 PM
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Default RE: Another Guillows RC conversion - a few Q's

Special little airplanes should need special little radios. If you stay with the recommended for flying stock "rubber power" or between 3 to 6 degrees dihedral for this type of flying semi-scale plane, it will have enough rudder to control R-E-M, but make sure you have ample throws on them all. I'm not sure about what you're using for power, I'm just learning about EP, but I'd recommend servos about 2/3rds that size at about half the weight. If it was mine, and I've looked at that model myself, I'd go with full ailerons and sub-tiny 4-6ish gram servos (Blue Arrow, Draganfly etc), it's becoming more practical now. IMHO

[8D]

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Old 06-27-2009, 02:19 PM
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Default RE: Another Guillows RC conversion - a few Q's

CD-Rom motors are fun to tinker with. Really, one of the cooler aspects of electrics, IMO. Cheap, easy to make and you have lots of control of RPM vs torque. They're a little more power than an .020, but you can wind them to spin a 8" or 10" prop. I've made several from the Go Brushless kits. http://www.gobrushless.com/shop/inde...odshow&ref=GBv I see that they now have the magnets glued in and the bearing tubes assembled, so you just do the windings, pop it together and you're ready to go.
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Old 06-27-2009, 03:01 PM
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Default RE: Another Guillows RC conversion - a few Q's

Hey, that looks promising. Approximately what is the weight on those motors? I may still go with my HS-55 servos, mainly because I'm on an extremely tight budget right now, been trying to use mostly stuff I already have around (things just haven't been right since getting laid off last November.....fortunately I got another full-time job last month, so once I get some more cash put away I hope to get back into R/C more). The more I look at this GWS motor, the more I think it's just way more power than needed, plus I think it's too long and too heavy.

Hmmm, I do see a 3-pack of Blue Arrow servos on ebay for like $16 total...very tempting. I think I'll try the HS-55's, and if I'm not happy with performance, I can always swap in some smaller servos. I initially wanted to make the model super-light, for slow indoor flying. Then I got to thinking, I really don't have too many places indoors where I could fly it. So a little more weight would be good, to help with light wind. I think right now I'll just go for that CD-ROM motor, a small brushless ESC for it, and 3-channel control. Actually I might just build this Cessna 180 first, as a practice model.....it's about the same size as the Champ.
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Old 06-27-2009, 08:11 PM
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Default RE: Another Guillows RC conversion - a few Q's

Since the Champ is a high wing model you will not need all that much dihedral to make it an effective and fun rudder and elevator model. For a 25 inch span an inch of dihedral per side would be just fine. And keeping it to three controls will aid the overall weight reduction. And on small models the phrase "light is right" should be treated with all the enthusiasm of a Religioius Dogma. It's impossilbe to make 2 foot RC model too light. Just ain't gonna happen. And the lighter you make it the better it'll fly and the more fun you'll have. In fact instead of thinking you need to add nose weight to balance the model I would be looking at small things that add up to make the tail lighter so you can get away with a normal motor up front.

By all means look at winding your own if you want. But you don't need to. There's a huge assortment of cheap and decent brushless out there these days along with budget priced ESC's to the point that I would not even THINK of using a brush motor. Hobby City, one of the RCU sponsors, had a wide variety of motors and ESC's available for cheap. Look them over. The only issue is which to buy. For that you'll want to look at what size prop will work with your model. For a 25 inch span you won't want anything much more than 6 inch and likely more like 5 inch diameter. This means you're going to be looking for motors in the Kv value range of 2000 to 2700 when run with a 3S pack so they produce the power you want with the smaller prop running at higher RPM.
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Old 06-27-2009, 08:24 PM
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Default RE: Another Guillows RC conversion - a few Q's

I just weighed a CD-Rom Brushless and it came to .7oz.

You can go brushed if you can find a Johnson 250. They're pretty hard to come by, but they are incredibly efficient for a small brushed motor that was made for electric shavers. I replace the bushing with ball bearings for better efficiency. (See attached pics)
Unfortunately, the best prop for the Johnson is no longer in production.

These 2 videos are Powered by Johnson 250 motors. The first is a scaled down Goldberg Falcon - 24" span. The second is a twin of my own design.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYx5x0RZZH4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL0IcgKjhrk


Having said all that, as Bruce mentioned, brushless motors are so cheap now that its not worth using brushed. Brushless will give you many more prop options than brushed motors as well.
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Old 06-28-2009, 02:56 AM
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Default RE: Another Guillows RC conversion - a few Q's

Oh wow, I recognize that little motor. I remember seeing that (or at least a similar knock-off) in various things I took apart as a kid. I specifically remember a small plastic plane that hung from the ceiling and would "fly" in circles by the force of the motor. Neat. Haven't seen one in years. I just checked out those vids.....I like that twin! Now I'm doubly inspired to work on my little Champ. So far the smallest plane I've owned was an Ace Grasshopper, and it was woefully overweight with an old Futaba 4-channel AM rx and 2 standard servos, landing gear, and too much glue. Plus I never got the .049 running right.

OK, I decided to forge ahead here and just ordered a 2840kv brushless motor....it's an Emax CF2805. Guess it's right around 1oz in weight (29 grams). Time to figure out an ESC and battery config. Am I correct in assuming a 25amp ESC and, say, a 2S 750ma lipo would be a decent starting point with this motor?

I've decided for now I'm going to start with the Champ, and 3 channel control. Without the aileron servo and actuators etc I'm thinking I'll be fine with the two HS-55's. I really want something simple, cheap, and low-hassle to just throw in the car and go fly anywhere.

Getting a powerplant figured out is so far the toughest part of this project, for a glow-guy like me. The next challenge will be figuring out a way to make the wing removable. But I'm starting to get stoked about this project now.
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Old 06-28-2009, 03:11 AM
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Default RE: Another Guillows RC conversion - a few Q's

Sounds like a good setup, but 25A is way more than you need. A 15A ESC will be more than enough. The motor you ordered is basically a CD-Rom stator with a different bell.
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Old 07-02-2009, 11:42 PM
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Default RE: Another Guillows RC conversion - a few Q's

Well I ended up scoring a second BL motor.....I'd forgotten I was bidding on one. It's a NIB Emax 2205 outrunner, 1780 Kv. A bit weak? I'll probably use the 2805 on this model and keep the 2205 for something else. I also picked up an 8amp Electrifly ESC. I'm having trouble locating anything between say 10 and 20 amps, everything is either much larger (25+), or smaller (<10amps). I did read that the Electrifly ESC I bought is supposed to work well on GP's profile foamies, so I think it will do ok. I'm not going for anything aggressive on performance or prop, I don't expect my setup will pull more than 8amps, but I'm not sure yet.

I just need a battery now. Looking at the size and weights of lipos in the 650ma range, I'm starting to think something smaller might be a good idea. Think I'd get any decent kind of performance with, say, a 2-cell 400ma? Oh, and covering.....I want red and white, which I have in a bunch of leftover Monokote right now, but I'm thinking a special light-weight covering might be worthwhile. Just need to decide if it's worth an extra $25+..........this "budget" park flyer is quickly becoming a miniature money-pit. :P

I guess I'm at the point where I need to just do this and see how it flies. I might even put together two different configs....the 2805 motor and a 750'ish lipo for outdoor/light wind flying, and the 2205 and 300-450ma lipo for light weight indoors, so I can fly it nice and slow.

Tomorrow I shall pick up some wax paper and pins and get started on this bird!
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Old 07-03-2009, 01:19 AM
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Default RE: Another Guillows RC conversion - a few Q's

I use Castle Creations ESCs http://www.castlecreations.com/produ...nderbirds.html I use the 9A for my little guys.

I prefer to stick to 1 pack size, to keep things simple. If you do decide to go with different packs, don't forget that your CG will change unless the pack is right on the CG. I use 850mAh in my little electrics.

I don't care much for most of the super light coverings, but I do use them to save weight. One I do really like though is Micafilm. It doesn't have much stretch or shrink, but it looks like tissue, is very light and is stronger than Monokote type coverings. It has no glue backing and the instructions say to use Balsarite, but I found that using a light coat of 3M77, letting it dry and then ironing it on works fantastic.

This little plane is covered with Micafilm.
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Old 07-08-2009, 03:28 PM
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Default RE: Another Guillows RC conversion - a few Q's

Build the ailerons! Make them 10% larger than shown or make strip ailerons. Attach a small spring to the bottom edge of aileron to wing so that spring tension holds aileron nuetral. Single 'pull' line attaches to aileron horn on top side. Simple, light, effective and best of all no adverse yaw! Rudder not needed but if you do make it function with pull- pull. Hook pull lines on servo ahead of servo pivot and at rudder they should be at or behind hinge line. This is how some full scale craft do it to prevent binding. Make gear attach via rubber bands so landing doesn't create grief! Hand launch is really best way to do it. Don't forget to put painted papier mache or blue foam pilot inside!
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Old 07-17-2009, 09:31 PM
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Default RE: Another Guillows RC conversion - a few Q's

I am in the final stages of converting a guillows 24" cub to electric. I will post some pics. and a list of the gear I am using. I have put in about 3 deg of dihedral, and used a small carbon fiber rod as a carry through spar to help maintain it. The struts seemed to weak to hold the added weight of the electronics, however this is just a guess on my part. It is built according to plans in every other way (well except for the movable rudder and elevator.)
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Old 07-23-2009, 01:49 AM
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Default RE: Another Guillows RC conversion - a few Q's

Please help me to build a plane using a brushed motor. I have about 20 brushed motors. 6-15 V range. I don't have access to bruless. so don't tell me brusless is good.
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Old 08-03-2009, 08:56 PM
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Default RE: Another Guillows RC conversion - a few Q's



I really have my heart set on building and flying these guillows models. I was wondering has anyone tried using the gear from a parkzone sukhoi with the ar6400 reciever and the geared brushed motor? I tried searching on alot of forums to find an answer and havent found anything. Im sure someone out there has tried it

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Old 08-04-2009, 10:37 AM
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Default RE: Another Guillows RC conversion - a few Q's

This gear is new as you probably know, but there is a Guillow's Piper Super Cub (20") on the "other" forum being built right now with the Sukhoi electronics.  PM sent.

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Old 08-06-2009, 06:02 AM
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Default RE: Another Guillows RC conversion - a few Q's



thank you so much
Ive been doing some research with other blogs and i found out that the spektrum AR6400 wouldnt be a safe bet if you plan on only using 3 ch. since it is a brick and you cannot program which servo will be for what channel. On the AR6400 the two built in servos are for the elevator and rudder channels, which is perfect for a 4 ch setup. However if you only plan on using 3 channels your rudder will still be on your left stick. A way to save the headache and $10 is to buy the vapor brick. It has the same plugs for motors and is set up for elevator and rudder but the rudder will actually be the same channel as your aileron on your transmitter (your rudder will be back on the right stick).
I also found out that the vapor brick (with some mad soldering skills) can be made into a 5 Ch reciever.
as far as motors the vapor motor and the sukhoi motor have seperate order numbers but i cant find a difference.
with the amount of weight being saved i might think that the sukhoi stock motor might be able to pull it off with flying colors.
just thought id share that info with you guys

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