"1/2 A" & "1/8 A" airplanes These are the small ones...more popular now than ever.

replacement for a Norvel

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Old 12-23-2009, 05:34 PM
  #26
Jaspur_x
 
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel



Maybe I just got one of the bad norvels then , would`nt suprise me. I guess I will just try one of the norvel clones for starters , then I can do a comparison with the cylinder swap concept.

I`m getting this engine for my son who is just getting into the sport in case I forgot to mention it earlier.I will still be using my g-mark .061 until it bites the dirt I usually only fly the smaller models anyway .010, 020 or 030 sizes
. I`m going to build a shrunken ladybug , I have the fuse down to just a whisker under 12" inches total length , I haven`t checked the wingspan yet. On projects like this I like to build the fuse and then build the wing to the span that looks good , and a couple varyingwings to testout.I usually build a dihedral or polyhedral or both and a flat wing of course. I really like "the litlest stick with aflat, flat botom wing , fliessweet a bit more stable with the dihedral flat bottom though.
.
I may pick up a clone for myself too if his runs well enough. We are getting a yardbird kit and we each are going to build one. That`s where we intend the .061s to go. And I see that sweetheart ace whizzard is still available , so I have to get that , as a kid Iloved that plane.



The pocket rocket he is building now is going to start with a polyhedral wing and a throttled black widow 049.



I already do not like the negative feedback on the TTt07 , or the ap061,so I guess I will risk it with the wasp061

20% castor for up to 10% nitro , is that on top of ( added to )the oil thats are already in the fuel?



In desperation I bought a gallon of trinity power monster brew monster truck and rtf fuel. it boasts 20%nitro and 16% oil ( non-petroleum lubricants) synthetic/racing oil castor blend.
So I thought it would be about ballpark to add another 10% castor oil.
The castor oil we are discussing here is the kind you get at the dirtbike/atv shops and not the kind at the drug stores right guys?

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Old 12-23-2009, 05:56 PM
  #27
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

You can get a quart of Benoil castor from Tower for a few bucks and it will last a looong time..get a gallon of fuel and top off the jug with benoil and it will end up in the %20 range...I bought a plane from someone here with a norvel .061 he didnt like the engine.wouldnt run through a tank ,,hard to start ,,all that stuff...I replaced it with an .074, but it turned out that .061 had a slightly bent rod...I've heard more bad about the wasp than I have the TT.07..but thats up to you....Rog
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Old 12-23-2009, 05:59 PM
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

Are you sure the Norvel was broken in? They take a considerable amount of break-in time, especially the Revvlite versions. Also, as Rog alluded to, if you use an electric starter and aren't careful you'll bend the rod.

The AP is the Wasp. AP = brand Wasp = .061 model Hornet = .09 model.

I've used Cool Power Heli fuel. It has 30% Nitro and 20% oil. The oil is synthetic, but I've had no problems using it in my Norvels, although it would offer less protection in the case of a lean run.
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Old 12-23-2009, 06:41 PM
  #29
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

TRY: Brodak, CS, Cipolla, Enya ... etc.

There are some overseas suppliers that also offer 1.5cc (0.09ci) airplane engines. The trouble seams
to be a case of just how far one is willing to go; Cipolla, CS, Enya ... all have an 09 glow engine. Some
are RC and some are fixed CL types. All come with available mufflers ... but they arenot low cost products.

I try to limit my budget ... after all ... Half-A and A size model aircraft are supposed to be marketed toward
modelers on a more limited budget ... or flying field options ... like park flyers. And most hobbiests that
fly Half-A and A size tend to crash alot and have to replace their hardware more frequently. That gets
a bit expensive.

Also, unless you are prepared to build ... there are not very many choices regarding ARF or RTF models
to choose from either .... this is the greatest "DRAG" on Half-A and A modlers or new comers to the hobby.

Rzzzle ... Frazzle ... QWERTYJK!
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Old 12-24-2009, 04:11 AM
  #30
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

Are you kidding? The market is flooding with ARFs in the right size!
Doesn't take much work to mount a glow engine and fit tank...
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Old 12-24-2009, 08:00 AM
  #31
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

Mr Cox, got any trainer-type ARF for a Norvel 074 in mind? Preferably with ailerons. I have a Neofun 1/2A trainer, which i will be adding ailerons to, but i would like something that's a little bigger. I can mount the 074 on the Neofun, but i came across a review that mentioned that a 049 best suits it.

Sulman
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Old 12-24-2009, 08:06 AM
  #32
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

OK so.............. negative feedback on the TT07 but mostly power to weight issues. ap wasp ( norvel clone) also negative feedback
Brodam does sell an .049 ( maybe I could retro fit a carb on it like I did my teedee049) anybody have experience or feedback on the brodak engines?
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Old 12-24-2009, 08:33 AM
  #33
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

Jaspur,

There is two different Brodak engines the MK1 and the Mk2. The Mk1 is a CS(crap) made engine where as the Mk2 is a Moldiva(question spelling) made engine and is some what the better of the two. Both were made with the intent to be a sport engine to turn a 6x3 prop at 15,000rpm. So power houses they are not. Both use a head with a regular short glow plug which adds to their low power output but again they were made to run 10% nitro. Something tells me we might see something new from Brodak sometime soon. In the mean time get an AP Wasp .061 and get your son flying.

LAter,
Tim
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Old 12-24-2009, 09:08 AM
  #34
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

lol this is a tough choice , we are getting lea on quality 1/2 a engines these days. I wish I would have stocked up back in the day ( 1998)
I will be buying him an ap wasp 061 ( first thing is first though , tear the top-end off and measure compared to the norvel. If it matches , I`m stocking up!)

My old g-mark 061 and queenbee074`s ran on regular short plugs , but if I get the good plugs that seal at the bottom I should be good with the brodak also( if I can retro-fit a carb or throttle)
My son will be flying by the weekend regardless , we have a host of oldies-but-goodies but there is nothing like the feeling of a sweet brand new engine when you are a kid lol
We are copying my pocket rocket and using a throttled black widow for now. We are biulding a polyhedral wing to put it into the stable trainer class to get him starting out. With that little plane`s versatility we can swap out wings for sporty flying or put the more docile wings on for soaring.( the planes flying is all about the wing)
The other reason for looking for a new motor is for when his yard bee kit gets here. I know him well enough to know what kind of flying he will like early on. power up for take-off , then throttle back for a while and cruise around til confidence is high , then throttle back up and do some maneuvers.

The TT07 is not out of the question , but a light weight powerhouse that can throttle back is more desireable , but there is no need to go up to an 09 because the yardbee and whizzard will be the largest in our fleet.
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Old 12-24-2009, 09:30 AM
  #35
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

Jaspur,

Understand that you can NOT use a turbo plug or Nelson plug(both are bottom sealing plugs) in place of a regular short glow plug. They are completely different in threading and how they are built. They both need their own special machined heads to work.

Later,
Tim
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Old 12-24-2009, 10:09 AM
  #36
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

Jaspur, I have been informed that the piston/liner from the AP Wasp will not swap fit with the Norvels.

Some good news!
Plenty of parts are available for now for the AP Wasp: http://www.hobbypeople.net/guru/hps_962559810.asp
Also from time to time the AP Wasp goes on sale for $39.95. It did right after Thanksgiving and it may soon again be that price after Christmas or for New Year's.

Now some bad news... You may have noticed that the replacement glow inserts for the AP are ten bucks a pop! Can you say ouch? I knew you could. Some good news the AP inserts are not known to be weak so the original should hold for a while.

Some really good news! For just $14.99 you can get three inserts and a new head clamp from here: http://www.halfa-works.com/engines_2.html
These are high compression style and will also fit the Cox 049-051 engines and Norvel 049-061 engines.

Robert
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Old 12-24-2009, 06:38 PM
  #37
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

I understood about the glow plugs needing special heads , I just was not very clear in my writing.

That is def. bad news and good news as well.
I have those items on my things to get in the near future when I start flying the larger( lol)1/2Amodels again.
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Old 12-24-2009, 08:32 PM
  #38
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

I've swapped the AP .061 P/L into a Norvel bottom end. It runs just like a AP .061 should if they ever made one with a decent bottom end.
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Old 12-26-2009, 07:08 PM
  #39
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

Sweet I may have to buy 1 or 2 just for spare parts and to get my norvel going again. If I can`t win any nib condition auctions on ebay , there were a couple last night.

I`m mixing 1oz. of castor to an 8oz bottle of a 20% nitro 16% oil r/c car fuel. That should be more than enough ( hopefully not too much ) lube for the 010 - 030`s I normallyrun.
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Old 12-27-2009, 08:27 AM
  #40
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

A few notes and observations, only my opinions of course:

The AP was copied from the pre-Revlite Norvel series. It has a bronze bushed crankshaft (Norvels don't). Many have used the AP with great success.

ANY new engine shoud have the head and backplate removed and receive a thorough cleaning and burr removal. A little junk in the engine goes a LONG way.

Heads should be interchangeable. Note that NORVEL switched glow heads early on which necessitated a new head adapter. The two are not interchangeable except as sets...ie the new glow head will not fit the old head adapter, etc.

Turbo adapters should fit if you want to use Turbo plugs. So should the Nelson/Galbreath set and Cox glow heads.

Although I have not tried it, I understand that some parts are interchangeable between Norvel and AP Wasp.

George
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Old 12-27-2009, 10:59 AM
  #41
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

All info. is apreciated on my part , as well as opinions. I will probably try an ap wasp ( mainly to get a spare top-end for my norvel), however If the nib conditionnorvels on ebay keep going at reasonable prices on ebay I will just grab one or two there first.

I apreciate the info. on cleaning up the engine internally before use , I normally trust the mfg. to have that done , but I will do that on the ap for certain.
thanks,
Jared
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Old 01-19-2010, 05:27 PM
  #42
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

Ok , I got a deal on3 norvels for a good price , one is used but in good condition , and 2 nib.
Then , I found a nib G-mark .061 but it`s the uc model , I will take the carb off my old engine and swap it over.
I will still get an ap just for the curiosity of it.
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Old 01-19-2010, 11:18 PM
  #43
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

There are Norvels on ebay as we speak, also a new Cox 09, and Enya 09 s too, including a new one. The Enyas are very affordable.
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:48 AM
  #44
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

Twostroke, The TT 07 will be perfect for the Cub. Remember, it is a J3 Cub not an A4 Skyhawk. If you want it to fly in a realistic manner, use the TT 07. Once it is flying at speed, you may want to throttle back for relaxed flying. Afterall the model has a light wing loading. A good friend of mine flys a Piper Super Cub with a 9 Foot wing, using an old OS .35 S and it takes off in tall grass and flies very good.
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:54 AM
  #45
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

It's a shame that CS won't take the initiative to try and duplicate the kind of performance that their .06 can deliver. Stock, their steel/iron engine will deliver only some 13K on a 6 x 3. With the working bits of the Norvel .06 stuffed into it, this neat little engine has shown its potential by delivering 19.9K on the same, 6 x 3 black Tornado. Stuffing in a Cox crankshaft added another 1,000 RPM. Just eyeballing and a bit of luck has given me an engine that surpasses the Norvel .074, as far as power to weight. However, I do have a stock, Norvel .06 that puts out 11K on a Cox 8 x 4 on diesel fuel. For a scale project, the lower tone of such an engine gives you a much more realistic experience. There IS the PAW .06 and it's a great engine but weighs some 50% more than the Norvel and that's without a muffler.
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:14 PM
  #46
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

Yes, it is a shame that Norvel stopped making engines.
After sealing the crankcase of a CS with JB weld I got about 16500 rpm on a 6x3...

Just a note on the PAW 06, it does have a single ball bearing which is nice and may partly explain the higher weight. Can't remember the actual weight of it. There is also an optional firewall mount which may help to keep the total weight down.
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:28 PM
  #47
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

I suppose the point is is that the Chinese manage to put out good products at good prices. I've read that Norvel could resume production but circumstances dictate that their prices would have to go up considerably. And that would be justified in my opinion. I have their entire range of engines and every single one of them are OS quality in fit and finish. Just the unique, anodized cylinder and nickle plated piston put them in an entirely new class. Their cranks are massive and bullet proof. Their throttles are extremely well made, unique and effective. The downside is that their unique design required some new handling strategies that most didn't apply and it was too easy to bend or break a rod. The fault for that was Norvel's IMO as their instructions didn't warn you to never over prime. Too much prime can wash out the lube trapped in the pores of the anodized cylinder and with a new, tight engine, you could get a pretty serious lock up. Hitting it with a starter in this condition was a perfect recipe for failure of some sort. I hated their dogbone rods and any conversions to diesel usually had me install a heavier rod.
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:54 PM
  #48
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

Hello AndyW , could you give me a detailed what to do on my new(on its way) ap wasp .061 to get her respectable performance ?

You mentioned a cox crankshaft? Or should I just send it to you and we work out a deal?
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Old 01-21-2010, 12:32 AM
  #49
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

Jaspur,

The hybrid containing the Cox crank has its roots in the Brodak/CS, Chinese made engine. Extensive rework, not just another crank was done to get outstanding performance. You can see some of that here, http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_42...tm.htm#4264911

Just installing the plug from a Norvel .074 or converting a burned out blank to take turbo plugs added a decent 1.5K to the top end. But the Brodak/CS is a steel iron engine and adding the proper bits from a Norvel, (or Wasp) was necessary to update it to modern specs. Also, the crank's intake was hogged out rectangular like a TD (as compared to a Medallion) and the case intake needed the same treatment to match. As I like to convert to diesel, at first, the stock crank held up but eventually, two of the stock, Brodak/CS cranks broke under stinky power. I stuffed in a Norvel crank and lost some 3 or 4K. A bit of a mystery which I haven't looked into. The Cox crank that I used, can be seen here, http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_90...tm.htm#9001139

This is huge amounts of work, I'm afraid. I keep hoping that the folks in charge would take notice and perhaps give it a try.

The Wasp can be a real decent engine. In fact, despite it's not having an adjustable airbleed, I found that its throttling was quite good. However, adding that feature made it perfect. But what you end up with is hit and miss, it seems. I had two, brand new and one did as well as a good Norvel, some 18 to 19K on 25% and a black Tornado, 6 x 3. A Cox prop of the same size loads the engine more and RPMs will be down. On my hybrid though, the Cox prop runs slower than most, its efficiency allows for as good or better performance over some computer designed,, uhh, designs.

Some of the Wasps came out with a bit more clearance in the crank to case fit than I would have liked so I haven't run many of them over the years. My Brodak/CS hybrids have been flown the most, simply because they have the best power to weight. But a stock Norvel or Wasp isn't that much heavier. Maybe I'm saving the stock engines for when I have to hang up my machinist apron.
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Old 01-21-2010, 04:01 PM
  #50
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Default RE: replacement for a Norvel

Guys,

I just want to mention that there still tons of Norvels out there, and you don't have to get them on Ebay. Most of the 30+ .049/.061s I have were bought AFTER Norvel stopped sending engines to SIG. GO TO SWAP SHOWS, GET IN FIRST THING, MAKE A QUICK PASS DOWN THE AISLES. 9 times out of 10, if there are Norvels there, you will find them this way.

I just bought my 6th .074 this weekend, for $35. It has one run on it. How can you pass up a good motor for that price, let alone a Norvel .074? These motors may not fall in you lap if you spend your time on a computer when you get home from work, but they are very available if you are interested enough to get out and look.
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