H5487

Hi Guys,

I'm not normally a "Half A-er" but it looks like I'm going to be dipping a toe in that pool as my grandson and I build his first R/C plane: a Randolph "Nickel". Anyway, I thought that getting re-involved in the little motors would be a piece-o-cake because ALL of my pre-R/C experience back in the 60s involved the venerable Cox-Oh-Four-Nines. Yep, a cakewalk! And then...

SCREEEEEECH... (Sound of a comfortable thought process just about to enter uncomfortable territory.) What do you mean I can't buy Cox motors anymore? I thought they'd be around forever, like Cracker Jacks and Oldsmobiles. Now I find that they're not only no longer available, they've been replaced with motors from overseas; some of which (reportedly) are barely useful as fishing lures!

So, how does a 1/2A retread go about getting re-involved in little motors? Who makes a good one? Who do I avoid? Do any of them have a throttle that is worth a darn? I realize that a lot of this has probably been discussed in this forum (and I've already found some of the threads) but I'm hoping that one (or more) of you could educate me in one thread without requiring me to scrutinize every thread in the 1/2A forum. I'm thinking that other newbies would benefit in such a summary as well.

In the meantime, are the now-orphaned Cox motors doomed or are they still being supported by aftermarket manufacturers?

Hey, thanks for any info that you can offer!

Harvey

SGC

For new Cox motors n spares :- http://coxengines.ca/home.php

ProBroJoe

Welcome to the forum Harvey.

If you have your heart set on a Cox engine, they're now being produced by a group in Canada who has bought up all the Cox spares and tooling. Check out: http://coxengines.ca/

The AP Wasp .061 isn't a horrible engine, but it's a bit pricey at ~$50... I think you're best bet would be to shop for NIB Norvels on eB*y - if you're going to spend that kind of money, you may as well get quality you can trust.

Also on "the Bay", you'll find quite a bit of aftermarket support for our little engines...

Hope this helps,

-Joe

Andrew

Ditto on the welcome.

Like SGC and PBJ have said, the Canadian company is probably your best bet for COX engines - the folks there are very receptive to suggestions, they have earned the respect of the regulars on this forum and pricing is very reasonable.

The problem with the WASP is QC - you can never tell what you're going to get. HobbyPeople.net will occasionally run specials on this engine at $39.99, which is more reasonable. Hobby People also carries a complete line of parts for the WASP. There are several threads on this forum giving tips on how this engine's performance may be improved and it involves just standard mods, no machining necessary.

andrew

fritzke

My Feedback: (1)

I like the Thunder Tiger .07 myself.
Dave

DeviousDave

To be completely fair and impartial, I can't think of too many "new" motors that are worse than their Cox counterparts. People tend to look back on Cox products with rose colored glasses and forget all the reasons that kept 1/2A from being mainstream. The reed valve motors had decent running characteristics, but to get any power you have to go to a TD or Medallion. The TD's had crappy fuel draw and bad needling, and were generally more trouble than an average RC flier was willing to tolerate. If you were an "engine guy" and didn't mind fiddling a bit, it wasn't a problem.

The newer engines are far more superior in that regard, Norvels specifically.

Remby

My Feedback: (3)

Harvey;

Welcome to you and yours.

The guys here have you on the right path. I still use Cox, and the people/companys they listed for you are great to work with. Towers has needed parts like props, engine mounts, etc. Galbreath glow adapters can be found to replace a stock Cox glow head and give better power.

Your request for a thottle will limit your choices, but the TT.07 has that option, as well as the Norvel .061, and the Wasp .061. There are others, you need to look around a bit.

Fuel for the Cox engines must have castor, or you will have trouble, do not use a all synth oil fuel. Sig has the 25% champion that works great with a extra ounce of castor.

AMB

OK group getting into half A bought a wasp 061 and a CS, had issues , no point in product bashing Now have a Cox golden bee, sure start and picked up a used medallion (this is an engine) all converted to diesel, you can check out on the diesel site heading Cox 049
I did use Cox international for parts and new engines great folks to deal with.Just right for some little electric ARF conversions martin

H5487

Hey Guys, thanks for your replies. And your welcomes! It looks like this little trip with my grandson is going to be a fun one!

I went ahead and checked out the AR.061 at Hobby People and liked what I saw so I went ahead and ordered one. I hope I did the right thing. Andrew, where can I find those threads on modding the Wasp? I'm not looking to get more power out of it as much as I'm looking for easy starting and reliable operation.

Some of you mentioned Norvel motors but I don't know what a Norvel is. From the way they were mentioned, I suspect that they're now out of production but still available on the used market?

Dave, you mentioned that Cox motors are probably held in higher regard than they should be. Maybe so, but then again, Cox motors are out of my childhood and I typically view that entire period through rose-colored glasses!

Thanks, Guys, for the info so far. PLEASE keep it coming!

Harvey

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

To : inmate #H5487..

If you browse the RCU classifieds and do ebay searches, you'll find lots of good stuff out there.
Norvels had about a 20 year run and the mfg changed business interests when their product line became less lucrative then other pursuits. These engines are a great value NIB for $70 or less.
The Norvel .074 is probably the greatest 1/2A engine of all time.

All 1/2A engines benefit from running some castor oil and about 20% total oil in the fuel...more if you like.

The AP.061 runs great up to the day that the engine starts sucking too much air through a worn out crankshaft bore....and it's been my experience that they wear out too soon.

H5487

What kind of timeframe are we looking at? Since this will be my grandson's first R/C, I'd like to get at least a half year of occasional weekend flying. By that time, he'll be looking for the next step up, I'm sure.

I'll keep my eyes open for a Norvel .074.

Harvey

ProBroJoe

Oh, I think you'll be OK for a while... I flew my AP .061 for about 6 months before I replaced it with a Norvel .061. The AP now resides on my buddy's Das Not Ugly and it's treating him well - I now wonder why I gave it away! OK, I know why, the crank was getting a little sloppy in it and I didn't want to deal with it!

Anyway, I just did a quick check for "Norvel .049" and "Norvel .061" on eBay and came up with 3 or 4 of each, they're VERY pricey with "buy it now" prices averaging $80.... I wouldn't even consider it, be patient and you can find one, NIB for about $50... the Norvel .074s fetch a much higher price - I've seen 'em go for upwards of $150! The demand for these little jewels tend to come and go, so just keep an eye on the trend until you can get one for a song.

Anyway, the AP will serve you well, at least until your grandson gets hooked! Oh, and if you're curious as to what one runs like, check out my video of one on a 12 ounce plane here: http://home.comcast.net/~jbwebst/SureShark2.wmv


-Joe

H5487

Thanks Joe. Lots of good info. I see no reason why the AR.061 won't serve us well for awhile.

Neat video, too.

Harvey

gcb

NORVEL was a company in Ohio that imported engines. They imported a high performance "AME" and an easier handling and a little less potent "Big Mig" in .049, .06, and .15 in both throttled and venturi versions.

The fellow who owned the company later sold it to SIG. SIG also imported the Big Mig in a .25 size, and I believe a .40 size (I don't have one).

George

Edit: Forgot to mention...the company that was making the engines was doing it as a sideline and are no longer producing them.

Andrew

Harvey

Here is a post of mine from some time back:
*******
Welcome to the world of Chinese QC. Buying a WASP is a crap shoot. The good ones run OK; the poor ones run, well poorly. Although the crankcase is bushed, every one I've seen had a shoddy bushing/crank fit with quite a bit of side play. About the only thing you can do is use a high castor content fuel to get as much sealing as possible.

You're being kind describing the head gasket - replace it with a third party gasket (COX .049 gaskets are a dropin). You can get gaskets from COX International or Larry Driskill at Kitting It Together. That COORS can gasket probably contributes more to a poorly running engine than any other part. Be sure the gasket sits flush on the shoulder in the cylinder and that there are no chips stuck to the shoulder or bottom of the plug. You can also buff the bottom of the plug using 400 to 600 grit sandpaper with oil on a piece of glass.

The needle valve/throttle body thread fit is very loose and can suck air - add a piece of large fuel tubing that slips over the throttle arm retaining nut and over the end of the NV body. Make sure all screws are tight and that the backplate is tight. I have also replaced the carb O-ring seal with a thin donut cut from silicone fuel tubing. Sometimes the OEM O-rings are either hard, fit poorly or have taken set and fail to seal.
********

The head gasket is really quite poor - COX head gaskets are dropin replacements. Be sure to clean the motor thoroughly inside and out before running. Some ship with machining swarf inside. If the endcap of the muffler does not fit tightly, you may want to either pin it or JB Weld it after deciding on the direction of the stinger. They can pop loose while running.

There is a third party head and plug that has improved performance for the COX, NORVEL and AP engines. This is the Galbreath head/NELSON plug combo. These are available from Larry Driskill at [link=http://www.kittingittogether.com/]Kitting It Together[/link].

The NORVEL was the better mousetrap and small engine enthusiasts beat a path to their door - then they stopped making them.

You'll find a lot of expertise with small engines on this forum and most any question you have will be answered. Great that you're giving your grandson an introduction to a good hobby.

andrew

Kiteflyer

My Feedback: (17)

Here is a thread that addresses AP 061 issues:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_89.../anchor/tm.htm

Kiteflyer

My Feedback: (17)

Andrew beat me to it.

DeviousDave

The Norvel engines are what the AP .061's are copied from. They were made in Russia and were the first mass produced 1/2A motors with a good throttle, good muffler, and a lot of power. Sadly, they also were the last. Norvel's come in two flavors: the Big Mig models with porting made to run the kind of props you would use on a Cox motor, and the AME models that run smaller props at speeds way faster than a cox ever could-and they last a long time doing it.

It seems that the best engines ever made for 1/2A came from the former Soviet Union, or Eastern Europe. Most do not have a throttle if that is important to you. Though never imported in large numbers, the VA .049's were the cream of the crop in non-ball bearing engines. They were tops in their class for power and weight and offered a really unusual piston arrangement that allowed the user to change port timing to suit the prop you wanted to run. The MP Jet .061 engines (Glow, Diesel, CL and RC) are highly sought after for their power and running characteristics-they are like miniature .40's

Lastly, there are some EXTREMELY powerful 1/2A engines sold for control line and free flight use-you really have to eat your wheaties before flying something with one of these bolted to the front. We have our very own Combatpigg nudging 150mph with one of these bad boys...... Typically they make about .7hp in the 34,000rpm range.

Andrew

Harvey -

See the NORVEL engine FAQ located at the top of this forum as a sticky - it covers the development of the NORVELs from the AAN to the AAO models. When the Soviet Union collapsed years ago, companies and engineers that depended on defense contracts for income suddenly were out of work. They had the equipment and technology to build very high end engines relatively cheaply and used the opportunity to supplement income. As things improved, apparently the company moved on to more profitable work much to our loss.

NORVEL stood for Northern Velocity and was initially set up by Ed Stevens to import strong controlline engines. As time went by, they moved to R/C and the Revlite technology involving hard anodized cylinders. I suspect that it is sufficiently difficult to do in a manufacturing scenario (the Soviet engineers and production capability were defense oriented with highend equipment) and the Chinese cannot copy the process. Consequently, the WASP is the older AAN technology.

andrew

BMatthews

With all of us that hoarded up on the Sure Starts when they were cheap is there no one south of the 49th that could send H5487 an SS to get him and his grandson going? I know that I'll never use all of mine that I got. But it's more pricey and trouble to send it over the border.

I don't want this to turn into a buy and sell thread so if anyone can help out this way please do it via PM's. It's just that it seems more like this would be more of a "help offered" thought than a "buy and sell" thought.

DeviousDave

(quietly confesses and kicks his can down the road)

... I didn't get any Surestarts

rmenke

My Feedback: (13)

Hay CP;

Couple months back I scored a couple of little guys NIB from a local estate. Neither have been mentioned in this thread. A OS-6 and OS 10FSR. They look well done typical OS. I have kept them just cause they are so cute and have been designing something for them in my head. Yea, a lot of empty space up there to work in. I don't recall ever seeing anything like these things through the years in ads or the local Hobby Shop , never at the field. Are they worth building a airframe around from scratch? Also kept a Rossie 15 RE, and Cox 15 RE with cute perry carbs. Ever see a Super Tiger diesel 15 before? Am not a collector type, so will want to put them to good use in the future, assuming I will be around for the future. Are these things keepers, or E-Bay fodder? Input would be appreciated!!

lfinney

My Feedback: (44)

keep the rossi and the cox
the ST is rare and should bring good money if sold right
ron young makes the cox come alive, MJD had ron fix his cox engine.. it involves using abc rossi sleeve and piston etc makes them really howl and the cost is so reasonable

rmenke

My Feedback: (13)

Ahaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Must be another of MJD's "just stock" engines. Truly appreciate the guidance. Thanks.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

Roger, you better hire 24/7 protection if you're holding one of those OS-sixes. They were made as a collectible trinket for a select few. If it were mine, I'd run it....
The other engines are very desirable, but I do not have a collector's mentality. I say to run 'em if you got 'em and if you don't run 'em, sell them to someone who will.
I've got one of the old ST .15s and it is a lot of fun on a C/L combat design converted to RC.