Inferno7600

I was justwonderingif this isactualitytrue that cox is coming back because if you go to coxmodels.com they say new products are in development. can someone clear this up for mebecauseit seemsa littletoo good to be true

Andrew

COX Models was a short lived company that served as a conduit for remaining engines from the original COX inventory. They seemed to have been set up to sell off the inventory that Estes had. Sure Starts were $6.99 - quite a deal, but these were cobbled together from barrel parts, so you didn't know what exactly you might end up with.

Looks like the name has been acquired by Hobbico, so who knows what will be there. My guess is that they will concentrate on ARFs and electric power with a COX branding. I can't imagine that they will get into 1/2A engine production, but I've been wrong so many times, being right would be surprising.[&o]

Both Hobbico, EstesRockets and COXModels are registered domain names with Network Solutions. I don't know if Hobbico bought Estes or not, but if they did, they inherited COX in the process.

andrew

icerinkdad

Cox Models may again bring out some electric rc toys but dont expect them to ever bring back the engines or things from our childhoods. They sold all that because they have become a toy company.
Bob

BMatthews

In fact do not expect to see any more small engines from any major company. Those days are gone and thanks to the glut of inexpensive brushless motors and ESC's they will never come back again. At best we may see some limited production engines by some company that wants to feed the nostalgia craze that a small sliver of the hobby market suffers from.

At this point what is out there for current stock is what we have to play with other than a few old diehards that are still producing some small glow and diesel engines.

The good news for engine lovers is that with all the old Cox engines out there that will turn up from time to time and with our own Xenalook selling parts we are in no danger of running out of engines or parts for some time to come.

gcb

We also have to remember that when someone DOES make new parts, they will cost MUCH more that those fire-sale prices at Cox Hobbies. Just be glad someone such as ZENALOOK will put the expense and effort to supplying parts for us.

From the rumors flying out over the 'net over the years, I understand that:
1. No new parts were made after Estes bought Cox.
2. I also read that the last run of plastic RTF CL planes were to be retailed through Wal-Mart and when they didn't sell, ESTES had to buy them back and took a huge loss.
3. Probably for that reason, ESTES formed COX Hobbies to get rid of remaining Cox inventory. Parts were mixed and matched and it appeared from pics that the "Sure Start" front ends were used on ALL .049's. Can't confirm this because I stocked up only on Sure Starts. The online pics of the Babe Bee, Black Widow, and Texaco all appeared to have the Sure Start front end, the unvented plastic tank, and the plastic one nipple, one vent hole backplate.

How about some of you who bought them at that time...can you verify or negate these opinions?

Apparently at the last, ZENALOOK bought up all the remaining parts (from everywhere they could find) and are now THE supplier of all things for Cox engines.

If you haven't yet checked out their site, make sure you do. They have a great selection to help you restore that Cox.

Of course most of this is hearsay and rumors which may not be fact.

George

Thomas B

My Feedback: (4)

Barry Tunic turned Estes and Cox from model hobby companies into toy companies. Now that Hobbico has them, I would consider them a model hobby oriented company, again....until they prove otherwise.

I have high hopes that Hobbico will do some good things for the Cox and Estes lines. I really hope they bring back the great Cox ARF versions of the Pica scale models that they produced for one year.

And the recently reconsidered electric version of the Cox Sportavia would be awesome!

icerinkdad

This is old news but I found it a few minutes ago on the Estes website.

In January 2010, the Estes-Cox Corporation was purchased by Hobbico, a 100% Employee-Owned Corporation based in Champaign, Illinois, and will continue operations in Penrose, Colorado.

Industry leaders in their fields, Estes and COX will continue to turn kids and adults on to flight with innovative new products that will go FASTER, FURTHER AND HIGHER.

Thomas B

My Feedback: (4)

Yep...old news I posted again today, quoting your previous comment...

I had heard that Barry Tunic came to run Estes from Mattel toys, which explains why he had the toy mentality, instead of the hobby mentality.

My contacts at Estes are quietly excited about the new direction that the company is going in. A shame that Cox was so annoyingly dismantled before Hobbico came on the scene.

BMatthews

Even if things had not gone the way they did the world just doesn't have the intrest in small glow engines that we here on this forum enjoy. The new products will be electric because it will appeal to a far larger market than the dubious joys of learning to start and run a small glow engine with any degree of skill.... at least that's how the buying public will see it.

WINANS

I was the head of R&D/Product Development at Estes/Cox for about the past decade, and an R&D designer before that for a couple years. I departed in Apr 2009 as the company was up for sale.

There is no question that Estes/Cox was a toy company. People have many opinions about the positive or negative aspects of that, but I can tell you that it was probably the only way that the company remained in existence. Half-A glow was falling apart as a range of products in the early-mid 90's. The sales associated with those products just evaporated, quickly. Estes rocketry continued to be very profitable and mass market sales fueled the growth of the company. Nearly all flying products branded under both Estes and a few under Cox were all very mass market oriented. Talk about a challenge to create flying products that sell to people with zero experience and the mentality of "return a product for any reason you like", coupled with the Walmart philosophy of "we'll take returns for any reason" - and you have a market that is very tough to make money in. Toy product return rates can vary from near zero to near 50% (!) for some flying products. Those specific flying products don't make money or last long in the market.

We delved into hobby products again under Cox, but frankly Barry never had a real interest in the hobby market and it was clear from very early on that it would whither on the vine. There just was no stomach for developing a real hobby market line of products, and he never understood the market. Even with brand names that could have been made into a fair group of products (Cox, Sterling, Pica - etc), it wasn't going to end up that way.

There were many committed and very talented people inside Estes/Cox, for many years, and there still are. Many of us grew up building and flying - we are modelers, and we constantly pushed to create products that were fun and leaned towards hobby. But it was clearly always inside the context of mass market sales - rarely straying outside of that. There are many mass market flying products that are wonderful, and they're feats of engineering, design and manufacturing (you can't imagine the cost factors involved in creating a $20 retail mass market flying product and making money on it). And as a flyer, and an engineer, those products are challenging and fun, and are no less "neat airplanes". In fact they trump the repetitive design and building aspects of so many hobby products.

It's interesting to read and hear the various opinions of what transpired within the company - so many thoughts and suppositions. One aspect of the company that was critical to its direction and feel was the fact that Barry really did not like the users of our products. He viewed them poorly. I don't know how to or want to say much about it as it's just old laundry, but you can imagine from a business perspective what that type of thinking engenders in the world around you. It sets a strong tone that has many results in the market, and with employees and customers of all stripes.

Regarding the Sportavia - that was a model that I pushed to get into existence. It is fully redesigned and tooled, and is a done product. It was simply never taken to market. It was configured with a low cost brushless at the beginning, but transitioned to geared/brushed setup for cost reduction. It flies nicely in both formats, and also would make an easy and nice conversion to glow if anyone cared to do so. Beautiful plane. The overall shape is identical, though it's been completely redesigned. The most impactful change was that I changed the airfoil and washout to practical and better performing choices. Wing has insert-molded fiberglass spars for a solid rod wing joiner - no more warped wings like the Kyosho model had with the wood spar.

Anyway - there are many more details that some folks will have interest in - glow engine production, etc. But it's all a long running saga. Basically that all tapered off quickly in the mid/late-90's. The whole surestart engine bulk sales thing was cleaning out old inventory that was built for anticipated Star Wars licensed .049 product in ~97. That Star Wars license fiasco failed miserably for nearly all of the licensees. Estes/Cox was left with hundreds of thousands of dollars in half-A engine inventory. It wasn't until years later that it was cleared out of the company. We made short runs of various parts over the years to complete builds of various motors, but it was a background activity pretty much, after the Star Wars situation.

The dismantling (good word, that applies in a number of ways to the things that came to pass at Estes) of the company was painful. But it continues on now under Hobbico. I frankly think that the purchase by Hobbico was one of the best outcomes of many that could have transpired with Estes/Cox. The company may experience a good future under that oversight. I believe, strongly, that glow will not be a part of their future. It would be a huge surprise if it did come to pass. The economics of making and selling small glow engines is terrible. I do hope to see some great products released under the Cox brand, and I also hope to see them utilize the Sterling name ... it's old, and relatively unknown to most modelers now (face it guys, we're the old guard in regards to who is in the hobby these days), but it could be used.

Whew ... hope this is of interest so some folks here. I don't plan to write or explain much more, but I think it's always of some interest to have a little insight into what went on within a place/company/endeavor in which one is interested.

Enjoy your models, guys.

Scott

Andrew

Scott

Thank you so much for your post and insight. So many times we are left to conjecture with no real factual information - it is always welcomed when someone with first hand knowledge takes the time to share their experiences with the forum.

Regards,

andrew

skaliwag

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks for the "Skinny" from Ground Zero. I personally would like to see the new owners revive the Sportavia.

Thomas B

My Feedback: (4)

GREAT post, Scott. Thanks much.

I don' t think the Estes and Cox fans dislike Barry for adding so much the toy side of the market as much as they hate his disdain for the hobby market and the effects on products and attitude towards the hobby customer. Would have been nice if he had hit a much better balance.

Appreciated hearing more about the near rebirth of the Sportavia. I hope that Hobbico sees the light! I have a deep love for that model (despite the warped wingtips... and there were actually two of them at this years SMALL event, in Little Rock, AR, both converted to brushless electric. I rarely go slightly crazy and pay large money for a kit on ebay, but I did that to get a new in box Sportavia last year.

I have installed a fairly high KV outrunner spinning a 6x4 prop on 3 cells... practically turns the model into a "warmliner", and it will climb forever at an 80 degree angle. I get 6-8 very high climbs on a 1300 3 cell lipo and 20-25 minute flights with no lift.

WINANS

Fellows, you're welcome for my little re-hash of past events.

Thomas, The Sportavia is a favorite of mine from long long ago. I used to fly a friends beat up old one around Tucson, years ago - thermaling in the desert evenings.

I prodded for quite awhile before the stars aligned to allow it to get on the project list. It frankly would make a good intro/intermediate model in an RTF format, and that idea is what got it going eventually. The new model flies great, and doesn't have that nasty sip stall tendency that the original did. I love the sight of that model overhead.

We developed a bunch of great models over those years - good times in many ways. Taxing times in many other ways.

Scott

skaliwag

My Feedback: (1)

I guess it would be taxing if the boss isn't interested in what you are doing and has an inherent dislike for the very people that put him in this Ivory Tower.

Thomas B

My Feedback: (4)

I flew the Sportavia right after it came out in the late 1970s. loved it! I worked for a mail order hobby shop back then and got great deals on blems and even better deals on ones that UPS paid claims on, after shipping damage.

I am about to do a fun mod to mine. I got a neat little 2.3 meter Ventus kit with a retractable single wheel gear unit that is the PERFECT size for the Sportavia. I hope to have the first Cox Sportavia to ever sport a retractable main gear, by next summer and SMALL 2011.

I will write Hobbico and grovel and beg if it will help get it re-released.

subarubrat

My Feedback: (1)

As an engineer myself I certainly can imagine. I work in spaceflight and the margin for design, production, launch, and operation of spacecraft has similar challenges, huge development and recurring costs that somehow expand to the very edge of the income generated. And a competing venture, change in market, or community organizer turned dictator can wipe out the work of very dedicated people who have the vision and ability to do great things. All your work and the others at Cox is appreciated and respected. That Star Wars disaster killed more than Cox, another favorite hobby of mine is pinball and I have been a collector and enthusiast for a long time now. Williams pinball was on the edge of resurgence after some tough years. In the early 90's pinball grew into a healthy business again and some of the most advanced and detailed pins came out in that era but by the late 90s business was down again and they were given one chance to save the company before they shut down pinball and concentrated on slot machines. They came up with a revolutionary new pinball platform called Pin2000 that mixed real targets with holographic ones and it worked brilliantly, instead of shooting for a plastic UFO with a blinking light you shot at an animated UFO that exploded when the ball hit it. The first game was Revenge From Mars and it sold strong, then they got the license for Star Wars which seemed like a really good thing at first. But the Star Wars people wanted to dictate everything about the game, artwork, sounds, layout etc. What resulted was a very pretty game without much replay interest and it did not do well. The company could not survive the failure and they shut down pinball leaving only Stern left.

I would be first in line for a Sportavia, it was one that I always liked. Those Cox/kyosho models really benefit from modern advances. The Cessna 182 is a prime example, I had one back in the day and although it was a great plane the idea that it was a trainer is pretty sketchy in hind sight. With the full sized radio gear and four double A batteries it had a pretty high wing loading and being a clean airframe that thing tore around like a warbird until it ran out of gas and came down quick. Being a favorite plane of mine I have several stashed away. I took one and decked it out with modern gear, sub micro servos, lipo receiver pack, micro receiver and set up ailerons, flaps, throttle, rudder, elevator, brakes, nosegear steering and powered it with a Norvel .061. The plane wildly exceeded my expectations. It is very light on the wing, takes off slowly, and is very docile, landings are almost slowflyer like. The envelope is amazing, you can drop the flaps and throttle back and it flys like an electric slowflyer or you can pull up the flaps and open it up and it absolutely screams with an insane climb rate. The airframe is really unleashed with the modern gear. I would buy a stack of them if they re-released it. When Tamiya did the Brat I ordered one to build and a few to stash away, same thing wold happen with those great Cox planes.

Here it is at the field, you can see the norvel and the flaps down.

subarubrat

My Feedback: (1)

Two people PM'd me about the brakes so I am pasting my reply here in case it can help others.

The brakes are really, or I should say brake, it is really simple. I used parts from a Dubro nosegear brake kit that seems to be out of production but it would almost be easier to do from scratch. All you need is a micro servo, I have a slider on the side of the radio I use for flaps on the left and brakes on the right, you slide the slider to apply the brakes. The brake iself is just a drum that is right next to the wheel, a small pulley would be idea, you just glue or screw it to the wheel, what you need it something with a groove. Then you take thin music wire and make a spring just larger than the pulley, it needs to look like a loop with both ends sticking out. One end gets soldered to the gear leg and the other sticks out toward the tail and the spring is in the groove of the pulley. The end that sticks out needs to have a small loop in it, then run a piece of fishing line from the spring to the servo. As the servo arm pulls on the string the spring tightens on the drum and you have brakes. It weighs almost nothing and works great. I use a bit of light oil to keep it from grabbing and being jittery. It is pretty funny to taxi this thing out, do a run-up, and then go. I found the picture that was the instructions from the old dubro card at http://www.udisco.com/hobbies/pics/270157.jpg

Cox International

My Feedback: (10)

Inferno7600

yea i know and have bought from you, but i would really like to see (i know its along-shot) the cox 074 come back or even the 049 tee dee

Cox International

My Feedback: (10)

The chances of us manufacturing a Cox .074 is zero (well, actually even a bit less than that). Last year, we had 6 or 7 for sale and it took us over 4 months to finally sell the last one. The 074 was a complete flop for Cox and, judging by our slow sales with them, not a chance that they would be a hit. We would have to make at least 1,000 at a time and at 20/year in sales..... one can do the math.

We have been/are toying with the idea of making a 1,000 run of TD 049's but don't think it's a commercially viable project. Production cost is around $55, making for a $110 retail price and I can't see selling 1,000 of those at $110 in a couple of years.

Bernie

peterburford

Bernie,
I certainly couldn't envisage making 1,000 TD's for $55,000.00 in Australia.
The materials and packaging would soak up most of that!
I hope that most on this forum are suitably thankful for what you have done already.
Peter

Andrew

We are quite thankful for what both of you have done!!!

andrew

Inferno7600

hey xenalook while your on this forum i am also wondering how a re manufacture of the original killer bee would do? and not talking about the killer bee clones either im talking like ones with the gold crankcases. i have one brand new in the box i want to use it but i want to keep it mint

Cox International

My Feedback: (10)

Manufacturing a Killer Bee will cost almost the same as a Tee Dee and there is simply no (volume) market for $100 KB engines. We looked at making KB cranks to go with our future diesel conversions and the best quote we got was $7 ($14 retail). No wonder that Davis Diesel sells their cranks for $20.

It is simply too expensive to manufacture a Cox engine in low volume (1,000 - 2,000) at today's material and labour costs. Last year, just for the heck of it, we had the Surestart engine quoted in China for a run of 5,000. The engine manufacturer quoted $25 ($50 retail).

We are presently selling our engines way below production cost but but brace for sticker shock when the world's supply runs out. The day is not that far off where our engine price of $14.95 will be remembered as "should have bought a box of them while the price was so low".

Bernie