New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
02-12-2004, 02:30 PM
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New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
I recently saw a radical edge 3d fly and was amazed a what it was capable of. I am interested in buying a small 3D electric plane that I can use in small places. similar to the radical edge 3d. I have no EP experience only glow. Could you let me know what suggestions you have for a good 3D park flyer. I like the Radical edge but it looks a little fragile for hard hit's. What is a good, easy/quick to put together, and good 3D flying bird. Also what suggestions for equipment. I don't mind going a little better on the equipment because I would like the stuff to be able to go into other 3d EP planes. I do not plan to buy multiple EP engines etc. as my strong interests are in giant scale glow/gas. Any tips would be greatly appriciated.
02-12-2004, 02:40 PM
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RE: New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
For indoor and small spaces, the flat plate foamies are hard to beat.
Here's a video of the Jeff Williams "E-Sledge":
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Jeff...1518490/tm.htm
This plane has been abused a bit, but it's really easy to fix and still flys great at 9.5 oz. I think it may have an edge in the durability department over the Shock flyers which are taking the country by storm.
From what I hear, Jeff is too busy to make kits at the moment, however he will sell plans and the build is very straightforward.
Here's a video of the Jeff Williams "E-Sledge":
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Jeff...1518490/tm.htm
This plane has been abused a bit, but it's really easy to fix and still flys great at 9.5 oz. I think it may have an edge in the durability department over the Shock flyers which are taking the country by storm.
From what I hear, Jeff is too busy to make kits at the moment, however he will sell plans and the build is very straightforward.
02-12-2004, 04:08 PM
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RE: New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
Do the foam planes need dead wind conditions, or can they fly in a little breeze, does the wood/foam handle outside flying better?
02-12-2004, 05:03 PM
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RE:flat plates vs airfoils
The flat plate planes will speed up quite a bit when you're not floating them around in a harrier or torque roll. So in this respect, yes, you can fly them in breezes without fear of them getting blown down the street. It is also very easy to "hover" them in a breeze by adjusting your throttle and elevator to hold your altitude for a particular wind speed.
But as I think you'll find, the name of the game in small space 3D flying is how light can you be, and HOW SLOW can you go and still be maneuverable. The lighter and slower you are, the more you can do in a confined space.
Flying in wind is a much greater challenge in 3D learning, as you won't know if the plane's reaction is the result of turbulence, or something you did. Of course, this get's better with practice. But for learning new moves, nothing beats indoor still air. (except maybe a simulator).
The real difference in flat plate vs a real airfoil can be seen as the plane's loading increases and one observes the turning performance -- especially near the stall at high speed. With the lightweight foamies, it doesn't really matter that the wing is flat and the LE is a blunt edge. You can horse it around at will and it won't bite you cause it's so light.
Outdoors, assuming equal loading, either one can be fast or slow, and either one will handle some breeze. But with radical throws needed for 3D, flutter will be an issue if you go too fast (for either flat plate or airfoil).
But as I think you'll find, the name of the game in small space 3D flying is how light can you be, and HOW SLOW can you go and still be maneuverable. The lighter and slower you are, the more you can do in a confined space.
Flying in wind is a much greater challenge in 3D learning, as you won't know if the plane's reaction is the result of turbulence, or something you did. Of course, this get's better with practice. But for learning new moves, nothing beats indoor still air. (except maybe a simulator).
The real difference in flat plate vs a real airfoil can be seen as the plane's loading increases and one observes the turning performance -- especially near the stall at high speed. With the lightweight foamies, it doesn't really matter that the wing is flat and the LE is a blunt edge. You can horse it around at will and it won't bite you cause it's so light.
Outdoors, assuming equal loading, either one can be fast or slow, and either one will handle some breeze. But with radical throws needed for 3D, flutter will be an issue if you go too fast (for either flat plate or airfoil).
02-12-2004, 05:37 PM
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RE: RE:flat plates vs airfoils
One thing is just the low mass of these little planes. While they fly fine in a light wind (flat foam plane..), you are talking about a plane that might not weigh more than 12 oz all up with battery (or less than 10 oz for WJ..) and low single digit wing loading. There is just no way that something this light won't be affected by the wind. I wouldn't say the actual airframe has any trouble dealing with it, but the plane will blow downwind like a paper bag.
Another thing is speed. I imagine these little planes won't go much faster than 20 mph WOT, so if you get downwind very far, you have to use WOT a LOT more to control your position. A lot of us prop our planes where they draw near the maximum amount of power our batteries can provide, but use WOT very seldom during a normal flight so our equipment doesn't suffer. If you get blown downwind and have to use 15 seconds of WOT every couple of manuvers, your flights will be shorter and you may put too much of a demand on your packs.
I live in a very windy area, and have never flown indoors. I get in a lot of flying time due to the fact that it only takes literally a minute to get outside and start flying, so any light breeze/calm condition is flying time. A lot of flights just before dusk, when the wind dies but there is no way to load all the planes/flight gear and make it to the club field. Like WJ says, these things are so light that making the street in front of your house a flying site is no problem. I live 2 blocks from a school, it takes me about 2 minutes to get there
Another thing is speed. I imagine these little planes won't go much faster than 20 mph WOT, so if you get downwind very far, you have to use WOT a LOT more to control your position. A lot of us prop our planes where they draw near the maximum amount of power our batteries can provide, but use WOT very seldom during a normal flight so our equipment doesn't suffer. If you get blown downwind and have to use 15 seconds of WOT every couple of manuvers, your flights will be shorter and you may put too much of a demand on your packs.
I live in a very windy area, and have never flown indoors. I get in a lot of flying time due to the fact that it only takes literally a minute to get outside and start flying, so any light breeze/calm condition is flying time. A lot of flights just before dusk, when the wind dies but there is no way to load all the planes/flight gear and make it to the club field. Like WJ says, these things are so light that making the street in front of your house a flying site is no problem. I live 2 blocks from a school, it takes me about 2 minutes to get there
02-13-2004, 11:18 AM
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RE: RE:flat plates vs airfoils
I too am interested in getting one of these little EP 3D birds. I would like to ask again, what suggestions do you guys have for the plane, motor(prop & gear), batteries, ESC, servos, receiver....and so on. I have up to this point only flown glow. I know absolutely nothing about electrics, but I am very interested. I prefer HiTec radio equipment, so I would like to know what to buy from them(servos, rec., etc.) Any thoughts? How do you get the plans for the Williams Extra? That looks like a winning design to me. Thanks!
02-13-2004, 11:29 AM
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RE: New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
BPayton, you may want to do a search or ask on e-zone, as it seems somewhat hard to get a straight answer here for some reason. Not bashing mind you, just seems to be more experienced people willing to help with setup and power questions. Really sorry I dont have the info you want, good luck and wish I had one too[
].
].
02-13-2004, 04:29 PM
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RE: RE:flat plates vs airfoils
bpayton,
I was exactly where you are a month ago -- only glow, but I wanted to try electric 3D. You can see specs on my plane at the video link (above).
I found a good buy on small servos, receivers, lipo batteries to be these:
Balsa products : hitec or other small servos, gws receivers
Todds Models
edogfight
aeromicro
hobby lobby
Compare and shop around. The motor I used is now out of stock at Hobby Lobby, but there are plenty of alternatives. Matt G says, and I agree, that the e-zone (on www.rcgroups.com) is the best place to research. It seems RCU is better for everything else EXCEPT electric and glider stuff, then rcgroups is the place to look.
Decide on the target weight you'd like to go for, and pay particular attention to the motor/battery/ prop combo that guys are using, and try to find a video if you can to make sure that's the performance you want.
I do suggest getting an outrunner motor and brushless speed control. Castle Creations makes the best (phoenix 10 or 25. the 10 means 10 amps and is the smallest, be sure the motor draw at WOT won't demand more than whatever you use).
Also, ya gotta check out lithiums. My gym rules say we only fly for 5 mins, so I stick with the kokam 340 cells which give about 6 mins of good aerobatics. A 3 cell pack is what I need for good hovering, but some motors work well with the 2 cell packs. You'll need a lithium charger, and a few packs to be happy.
Of course, this will be an investment -- in both learning time and money. But it's a lot of fun if you're up for a new challenge.
I was exactly where you are a month ago -- only glow, but I wanted to try electric 3D. You can see specs on my plane at the video link (above).
I found a good buy on small servos, receivers, lipo batteries to be these:
Balsa products : hitec or other small servos, gws receivers
Todds Models
edogfight
aeromicro
hobby lobby
Compare and shop around. The motor I used is now out of stock at Hobby Lobby, but there are plenty of alternatives. Matt G says, and I agree, that the e-zone (on www.rcgroups.com) is the best place to research. It seems RCU is better for everything else EXCEPT electric and glider stuff, then rcgroups is the place to look.
Decide on the target weight you'd like to go for, and pay particular attention to the motor/battery/ prop combo that guys are using, and try to find a video if you can to make sure that's the performance you want.
I do suggest getting an outrunner motor and brushless speed control. Castle Creations makes the best (phoenix 10 or 25. the 10 means 10 amps and is the smallest, be sure the motor draw at WOT won't demand more than whatever you use).
Also, ya gotta check out lithiums. My gym rules say we only fly for 5 mins, so I stick with the kokam 340 cells which give about 6 mins of good aerobatics. A 3 cell pack is what I need for good hovering, but some motors work well with the 2 cell packs. You'll need a lithium charger, and a few packs to be happy.
Of course, this will be an investment -- in both learning time and money. But it's a lot of fun if you're up for a new challenge.
02-13-2004, 09:36 PM
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RE: RE:flat plates vs airfoils
Here is a plane you might like. It feels more like a .40 size glow than an electric.
Ragged Edge
36 in wing with over 400 sq inch's
4 hs-50 servos with a electron 6 RX
Mini AC 16 turn motor with a AC 6 to 1 planetary GB swinging a 12x8 GWS prop.
3s1p Kokam 1500 batt.
AUW is 16 oz's and has a 2 to 1 thrust/weight ratio.
Here is a short video
http://www.rcsites.net/daking/
Ragged Edge
36 in wing with over 400 sq inch's
4 hs-50 servos with a electron 6 RX
Mini AC 16 turn motor with a AC 6 to 1 planetary GB swinging a 12x8 GWS prop.
3s1p Kokam 1500 batt.
AUW is 16 oz's and has a 2 to 1 thrust/weight ratio.
Here is a short video
http://www.rcsites.net/daking/
02-13-2004, 11:03 PM
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RE: New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
I ask nearly the same questions about getting started in 3D electrics a couple of months ago. The e-zone will give you more information..........too much information, in fact. There are just so many choices now in the small 3D electric realm that it is very hard to make a choice. The foamies may be more forgiving, but the ones I have looked at look like junk compared to the balsa models. The first step is pick a plane. Then do a search and find out what power system, etc. works.
I wanted a built up kit and ended up with a [link=http://mountainmodels.com/]Mountain Models Tantrum[/link]. The Radical RC Edge 540 was also on my list, but I didn't want a profile for my first electric. The Tantrum is laser cut, took me 3 days to build, and came out around 17 oz.. It did not fly well in wind (I'm comparing to heavier glow planes). It did fly very nicely in calm conditions until it had a close encounter with a light pole. I'm now building my 2nd Tantrum.
I stuck with NiMh batteries that I could charge with the charger I already have (I bought KAN 1050s). The Lithiums are more expensive, more fussy, and require a special charger, but give more juice in a lighter package.
I would recommend a brushless motor (I went with HiMaxx) which is a relatively cheap, but powerful brand. Unfortunately, you will find that the motor designations are worthless for a newbie to try to figure out the power outputs, and there are a zillion choices.
For 3D you are probably going to want to go with a larger prop which means a gear system..............yea there are only about a million prop/gearing combinations, so once again you will have to find out what others have used successfully on the plane you decide on.
I bought a Hitec Electron 6 receiver (I would recommend 5 channels as a minimum, so you can mix for better 3D performance). I'm using a combination of Hitec HS-55 and GWS Naro HP BB servos.
One thing for sure, this electric stuff may be smaller, but it sure ain't cheaper.
Oh, I left out the speed controler. Yea you need one of those too. I went with the Castle Creations Phoenix 25. It is a BEC which eliminates the need for a separate receiver battery (everything runs off 1 pack). One word of caution: Some micro servos pull a lot of current, and can overload the BEC causing it to shut down. When you buy one don't just look at the total amps it can handle, look at the total amps it can deliver to the servos through the receiver (1.5 amps for the Pheonix 25). An advantage of the Hitec HS-55 servos is that they pull less current than many other brands for comparible torque.
Here is a list of what I bought getting started to give you an idea of what you are getting yourself into:
Tantrum kit - $65
HiMaxx 2015-5400 motor - $50
GWS EPS 300CD gearbox - $12
GWS 12X6 prop - $2
Phoenix 25 BSC - $80
KAN 1050 8 cell NiMh pack (you will want at least 2) - $19 each
Electron 6 receiver and crystal - $65
4 micro servos (Hitec HS-55s or GWS) - $20 each
Solite or similar light covering - $10/roll
So for around $400+ bucks I got myself up to my chin in electric 3D. Welcome to the club!
I wanted a built up kit and ended up with a [link=http://mountainmodels.com/]Mountain Models Tantrum[/link]. The Radical RC Edge 540 was also on my list, but I didn't want a profile for my first electric. The Tantrum is laser cut, took me 3 days to build, and came out around 17 oz.. It did not fly well in wind (I'm comparing to heavier glow planes). It did fly very nicely in calm conditions until it had a close encounter with a light pole. I'm now building my 2nd Tantrum.
I stuck with NiMh batteries that I could charge with the charger I already have (I bought KAN 1050s). The Lithiums are more expensive, more fussy, and require a special charger, but give more juice in a lighter package.
I would recommend a brushless motor (I went with HiMaxx) which is a relatively cheap, but powerful brand. Unfortunately, you will find that the motor designations are worthless for a newbie to try to figure out the power outputs, and there are a zillion choices.
For 3D you are probably going to want to go with a larger prop which means a gear system..............yea there are only about a million prop/gearing combinations, so once again you will have to find out what others have used successfully on the plane you decide on.
I bought a Hitec Electron 6 receiver (I would recommend 5 channels as a minimum, so you can mix for better 3D performance). I'm using a combination of Hitec HS-55 and GWS Naro HP BB servos.
One thing for sure, this electric stuff may be smaller, but it sure ain't cheaper.
Oh, I left out the speed controler. Yea you need one of those too. I went with the Castle Creations Phoenix 25. It is a BEC which eliminates the need for a separate receiver battery (everything runs off 1 pack). One word of caution: Some micro servos pull a lot of current, and can overload the BEC causing it to shut down. When you buy one don't just look at the total amps it can handle, look at the total amps it can deliver to the servos through the receiver (1.5 amps for the Pheonix 25). An advantage of the Hitec HS-55 servos is that they pull less current than many other brands for comparible torque.
Here is a list of what I bought getting started to give you an idea of what you are getting yourself into:
Tantrum kit - $65
HiMaxx 2015-5400 motor - $50
GWS EPS 300CD gearbox - $12
GWS 12X6 prop - $2
Phoenix 25 BSC - $80
KAN 1050 8 cell NiMh pack (you will want at least 2) - $19 each
Electron 6 receiver and crystal - $65
4 micro servos (Hitec HS-55s or GWS) - $20 each
Solite or similar light covering - $10/roll
So for around $400+ bucks I got myself up to my chin in electric 3D. Welcome to the club!
02-14-2004, 11:01 AM
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RE: New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
Thanks for all of the info guys. I am probably going to go with a foamy. I am not sure about the rest, but I will check out the other forumns like you suggested. I really appreciate the direction, there is just so much of this stuff out there, it can be overwhelming. Thanks again.
02-14-2004, 09:14 PM
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RE: New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
OK I am the proud owner of a new Razor 2500, Pheonix 25, TP 3s 1300, and GWS 6.6:1 with 12x6 GWS props. Motocalc does not have all the stuff preloaded (as far as I can tell) but equivilent values tell me I should get about 28-30 OZ. of thrust for 9 minutes. Does that seem about right?
I already ordered 6mm Grey from Depron USA and 156 carbon rods from Goodwinds to build the YAK 40" plans from Foamy. I also have a Mini Laser 3D that sucked with the stock motor but I think should do well with the set-up I have.
I plan on getting differant props like the 11x 4.7 and a C or D gear setup for the gearbox with extra shafts and a Etec 2200 battery after I get things together and see what happens.
The search functions on here and Ezone don't allow searching within threads so sifting through the massive amounts of info is a PITA. I have tons of newbie questions like, what is the most efficient battery setup for these two planes or does it depend on throttle use? Do I have the right gear set-up for the most thrust?
I think my learning curve is starting to level off but there is so much out there and it's changing fast that I figured I just should bite the bullet and start with the best things available and learn from there.
I already ordered 6mm Grey from Depron USA and 156 carbon rods from Goodwinds to build the YAK 40" plans from Foamy. I also have a Mini Laser 3D that sucked with the stock motor but I think should do well with the set-up I have.
I plan on getting differant props like the 11x 4.7 and a C or D gear setup for the gearbox with extra shafts and a Etec 2200 battery after I get things together and see what happens.
The search functions on here and Ezone don't allow searching within threads so sifting through the massive amounts of info is a PITA. I have tons of newbie questions like, what is the most efficient battery setup for these two planes or does it depend on throttle use? Do I have the right gear set-up for the most thrust?
I think my learning curve is starting to level off but there is so much out there and it's changing fast that I figured I just should bite the bullet and start with the best things available and learn from there.
02-16-2004, 10:12 PM
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RE: New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
I have mini laser 3d also and stock did suck, so picked up himax 2025 4200, phoenix 25 esc., 3s tp 1320and today 3s 1900 pack. with the 1320 pack and 10/4.7 flew great for a sport plane but not a good 3d plane design. Now might get some foam and start building. So far nothing performs like foam or ultralight profile for all out 3d. Himax setup above with gws 300c 5.33/1 gear box is good power source but watch the amp draw on larger props!
02-23-2004, 02:22 AM
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RE: New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
Well I purchaced a HD3D and a couple lipoly packs and took it out to play today.. I am hooked.. these little things are great when I can't get to the field.. I flew it in about 15mph winds with gusts at 20-25. It was a blast.. I cannot wait to fly it in a little calmer conditions but I might be a little let down as flying in the wind is so much fun... I wish I would not have discoved park flyers... I already dump enough money into glow!!!!
03-26-2004, 11:11 PM
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RE: New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
I bought my HD3D when I was at the San Diego Electric show. It was already assembled and had a Nippy 0508 brushless. I love it. Its my 4th airplane and I don't see myself getting tired of it anytime too soon. I almost never fly my other planes now. I use the IRATE 850 Li-Po battery with a 10*4.7 prop. That keeps the max current below 5A and she will fly straight up.
Matt
Matt
03-27-2004, 06:50 PM
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RE: New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
brentp76,
I have tried to provide answers to alot of the questions you have at my www.3DFoamy.com website.... Info on packs, motors, setup, How to 3D, etc....
There are 11 diferent foam 3D plans that are available to download for free. They are all 100% 3D designs, and most are of popular full scale planes. They are also available as a kit for 29.95 if you can't find a local supply of foam and carbon.
I could talk till I was blue faced on the plus/minus bennifits of foam/balsa airfoil/flat electric/gas..... but it all comes down to fun... These little foam planes provide so much fun for so liitle $ and work that I seldom fly any of my $$$$ planes any more!!!! It is just pure, addictive, unworried flying fun!
Take one for a spin....
I have tried to provide answers to alot of the questions you have at my www.3DFoamy.com website.... Info on packs, motors, setup, How to 3D, etc....
There are 11 diferent foam 3D plans that are available to download for free. They are all 100% 3D designs, and most are of popular full scale planes. They are also available as a kit for 29.95 if you can't find a local supply of foam and carbon.
I could talk till I was blue faced on the plus/minus bennifits of foam/balsa airfoil/flat electric/gas..... but it all comes down to fun... These little foam planes provide so much fun for so liitle $ and work that I seldom fly any of my $$$$ planes any more!!!! It is just pure, addictive, unworried flying fun!
Take one for a spin....
04-01-2004, 01:46 PM
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RE: New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
My vote is for a Mountain Models Tantrum. I love mine. Mine flies in a fair about of wind (5-10 mph), but I am using a BL Razor 400 with LiPolys. Power, Wow!!! You can check mine out on my website.
Jason
www.bugleboy.rchomepage.com
Jason
www.bugleboy.rchomepage.com
04-01-2004, 06:14 PM
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RE: New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
Here's all you'll need. http://www.fancyfoam.com/
You simply supply your Tx, glue and graphics.
1st class CNC job assembles in less than one day (if you take your time).
Carbon fiber control horns.
Full flying stab and lots, lots more.
You simply supply your Tx, glue and graphics.
1st class CNC job assembles in less than one day (if you take your time).
Carbon fiber control horns.
Full flying stab and lots, lots more.
06-06-2004, 11:57 PM
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RE: New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
Brent and Matt, thanks for the nice words about the HD3D.
Come and see my site, I have added 3 more planes to my collection,
the Fish, Aftershock and the SR71. Sorry, I dont yet have any video
for the Aftershock yet, but I guarantee Its worth waiting for.
WWW.HD3D.NET
Come and see my site, I have added 3 more planes to my collection,
the Fish, Aftershock and the SR71. Sorry, I dont yet have any video
for the Aftershock yet, but I guarantee Its worth waiting for.
WWW.HD3D.NET
06-25-2004, 11:28 AM
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RE: New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
Aftershock Video http://highdesert3d.com/planes/aftershock/index.htm
06-29-2004, 06:58 AM
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RE: New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
ORIGINAL: Johnnylightning
Here's all you'll need. http://www.fancyfoam.com/
You simply supply your Tx, glue and graphics.
1st class CNC job assembles in less than one day (if you take your time).
Carbon fiber control horns.
Full flying stab and lots, lots more.
Here's all you'll need. http://www.fancyfoam.com/
You simply supply your Tx, glue and graphics.
1st class CNC job assembles in less than one day (if you take your time).
Carbon fiber control horns.
Full flying stab and lots, lots more.
06-29-2004, 11:23 PM
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RE: New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
www.InsaneFoamies.com will be offering a combo pack this coming week with all the fixins but will have the aluminum gearbox and high discharge e-tec pac instead of the old version batts. and the plastic gearbox for about the same price. look for it soon!!! more incredible video of mark leseberg also coming soon. night flying with no lights and lots more!!!!!!
06-30-2004, 01:04 AM
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RE: New to electric 3D, suggestions please!
My turn... :O)
Right now there is a sale at www.3dfoamy.com. It is 20% off everything and all FFF kits are being upgraded to Grey Depron for free.
This means you get a kickin' LASER CUT, DEPRON, 3D Foamy for only $23!!!
Free shipping on orders over $100.
Carbon Fiber landing gears, Prop savers....
Did I also mention that ALL THE PLANES have FREE PLANS to download and scratch build.
Now what was this post originally about???? :O)
Right now there is a sale at www.3dfoamy.com. It is 20% off everything and all FFF kits are being upgraded to Grey Depron for free.
This means you get a kickin' LASER CUT, DEPRON, 3D Foamy for only $23!!!
Free shipping on orders over $100.
Carbon Fiber landing gears, Prop savers....
Did I also mention that ALL THE PLANES have FREE PLANS to download and scratch build.
Now what was this post originally about???? :O)