RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
#27
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RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
The whole thing was a Charlie Foxtrot from the get-go.
The R/C was asked to be there and put on a demo.
The R/C didn't have an adaquate spotter.
The FS was showing off.
The "air boss" didn't seem to have a handle on much.
Break any link in the chain and there wouldn't have been a mishap.
I said it before but it bears repeating, we have a duty to see and avoid manned aircraft.
The R/C was asked to be there and put on a demo.
The R/C didn't have an adaquate spotter.
The FS was showing off.
The "air boss" didn't seem to have a handle on much.
Break any link in the chain and there wouldn't have been a mishap.
I said it before but it bears repeating, we have a duty to see and avoid manned aircraft.
#28
RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
Im not sure if the rc guy would have had another spotter it would have made a difference, Its not
that nobody had seen the full scale coming, The problem was they did not know he was going to
make a low pass over the runway. Also we can not put all the responsiblty to see and avoid on
one party, It takes all involved operating in the most responsible manner possible in order for
all to be safe.
that nobody had seen the full scale coming, The problem was they did not know he was going to
make a low pass over the runway. Also we can not put all the responsiblty to see and avoid on
one party, It takes all involved operating in the most responsible manner possible in order for
all to be safe.
#29
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RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
BarracudaHockey has it nailed. There is plenty of blame to go around, and not just for the two pilots. If there is a bright side, maybe all involved and the readers here learned something. I was invited to and flew at a full scale event several years ago. NEVER again. The risk will always be greater than the reward. IMHO
David
David
#30
RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
I really dont see what the big risk is with models doing demo flying at a full scale airport, We have
models performing at three airshows that I know of in my local area. Two of the airports are not
controlled. And at the uncontrolled fields aircraft on approach call out on the radio their intention
to land and are told not to when models are in the air. The airport with the tower will not give
a landing clearance while models are in the air this makes for a very safe operation.
I have even seen people actually go out on the run way and wave of full scale planes when
they were trying to land at the wrong time or place. The time im thinking of no models were
in the air but were lined along the runway at a small airstrip in Quratsite Ariz.
models performing at three airshows that I know of in my local area. Two of the airports are not
controlled. And at the uncontrolled fields aircraft on approach call out on the radio their intention
to land and are told not to when models are in the air. The airport with the tower will not give
a landing clearance while models are in the air this makes for a very safe operation.
I have even seen people actually go out on the run way and wave of full scale planes when
they were trying to land at the wrong time or place. The time im thinking of no models were
in the air but were lined along the runway at a small airstrip in Quratsite Ariz.
#32
RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
Again... it was an OPEN full scaled UNCONTROLLED airport... with NO NOTAM. a man with a radio does not make him air traffic control
most Certainly the full scale has right of way.....
most Certainly the full scale has right of way.....
#33
RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
Why do you keep saying the full scale has the right of way? What does right of way have to do with what happened?
#34
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RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
[:@][&:][:@][&:] Ovious Lack of communications.... Rule-1 Full Scale Has right of Way ...So that being Said, The RC Pilots Only Saftey Line Is his "Spotter" A Really Good One that Protects Him - Telling him Go Low, Land , Swerve, Whatever ... He (the Spotter ) is the Only Saftey Valve you have! Learn From It .... Or Dont Fly when Large Scale is in the Air ....Communications Is everything... Nachman
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RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
Im a fullscale pilot and rc there was alot of issues at play here. AndI do not agree that the r.c. model was at fault more the event organizers holding the walkie talki that should have said get down now! to the rc pilot also the full scale pilot NEEDS TO LOSE HIS CERTIFACATE NOW I DO NOT WANT THIS MAN FLYING OVER MY HOUSE A REAL BAD PILOT HE NEW WHAT HE WAS DOING AND IS A TOTAL JERK ... as far as the r.c. pilot ranting on utube about his toyI say this ...LAND NOW WOULD HAVE SOLVED BOTH THE PROBLEMS..at least nobody was killed by flying debris or the pitts hitting the crowd as for the ntsb come on guys iITS ON FILM ! open your eyes and stop b.s.ing the world dont you have more to worry about with companys like colgan air dropping out of the sky and untrained pilots it seems you make bad calls more then the general pubic is aware! BUT US TRAINED PILOTS KNOW THE TRUTH
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RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
I agree that the fullscale has the right of way. A pilot has his life potentially at risk. The RC pilot has his ARF.
#37
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RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot
Again it WAS NOT an OPEN full scaled UNCONTROLLED airport! It was a private airstrip! That puts it in the same catagory as parking lots, houses, and roads! A NOTAM is not required for parking lots or private airstrips! The radio operator was acting on behalf of the owner. Meaning you had not right to do something he did not give you permission to do, just as you don't do doughnuts in your neighbors front yard without permission.
Again... it was an OPEN full scaled UNCONTROLLED airport... with NO NOTAM. a man with a radio does not make him air traffic control
most Certainly the full scale has right of way.....
most Certainly the full scale has right of way.....
From what i remember of the video, their were multiple T-hangars on site. And the Biplane was put in a T-hangar after the incident and it landed. By those 2 things, one would "assume" his aircraft is based at that airport, which means he is a legal tenant of that airport. Just b/c it is a private airstrip does not mean you have to have permission to land their anytime you wish. If they receiver federal funding for improvements and maintenance, but it is privately owned, it is considered a Public airport and anyone can use it whenever they want. Also, if it does receive federal funding, you cannot legally close it down for any event if it has only 1 useable runway.
the FAR's basically state ,that the least manueverable aircraft has the Right-of-Way. So a jet has to give way to a glider and a glider has to give way to a hot air balloon. So by that, one can infere that that Full-scale has Right of Way over the RC model. And anyone says that full-scale is more maneuverable than the RC model, you need to have your sanity checked!
This incident does not fall on any one person's shoulders truth-fully (even though the NTSB placed it on the RC pilots, which IMO he right-fully owned due to his negligence in covering his own A*@), but everyone who was involved first hand (rc pilot ,full-scale pilot, air-boss, etc etc etc).
For those who say "how could the full-scale pilot not see a stationary RC model". I encourage you to go take a discovery flight at your local airport. It is nearly impossible sometimes to see an airplane as large as a small to medium size Twin engine airplane 1 mile away when they are below the horizon. Now if the full-scale plane is something like a small Cessna 152 at 1/2 mile and you are looking down-ward b/c it is below the horizon, it is nearly impossible to see it. I have no-doubt that the full-scale pilot probably did not see the model until it was too late. Our aircraft although color-full blend into shades of grey's and black's at distance's (no-one can argue that) now take that information and put yourself 100-200' in the air doing 150mph, with your concentration on radio calls, flying the plane, adjusting power and propeller RPM settings, etc etc and its fairly easy to see why the outcome came out like it did.
#38
RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
ORIGINAL: GraemeEllis
I agree that the fullscale has the right of way. A pilot has his life potentially at risk. The RC pilot has his ARF.
I agree that the fullscale has the right of way. A pilot has his life potentially at risk. The RC pilot has his ARF.
scale plane and on aproach to land the pilot calls on the radio his intent to land, Then either air traffic
control or someone else tells the pilot there is a rc plane blocking his approach next your pilot
respond back on the radio that he's going land anyway because he has the right of way and if the
rc does not move he will run him over. Now tell me would just sat there and say nothing while
your pilot preseeds to ram the rc plane? I dont think so! And I know any body in there right mind
would not ride with that pilot again. Also what the NTSB said about the rc plane being in the wrong
place does not sound right because where ever the rc plane was it was there first. The full scale
came into the rc planes space and should have never been as low as he was knowing a rc
plane was in the air.
#39
RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
So if a jet and glider find they are in the same airspace but the jet does not see the glider does the
glider have any resonsibility to try to avoid the jet? What do you think would happen if they had a
collison and it could be proven in court the the glider had seen the jet in time to take evasive
action but did not because he had the right of way.
glider have any resonsibility to try to avoid the jet? What do you think would happen if they had a
collison and it could be proven in court the the glider had seen the jet in time to take evasive
action but did not because he had the right of way.
#40
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RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
If the rc pilot was asked to do a demo at the airport, they should have marked the ends of the runway with a large yellow X on the runway to let the air traffic know that the runway is closed. Its common sense, at some of the fly ins here we close the runways for aerobatic demonstrations, for real and rc aircraft. I think it was poor judgement on the full scale pilots part doing a low,fast pass with smoke. communication is everything. who was on the radio on the ground? did the pilot even announce his intention for the low pass? who ever was responsible for the demonstration should have placed the giant x's on the runway ends during the rc demo to close the airport temporarily. fact is, the airboss/aircontroller f***** up with that, and lack of communication
#42
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RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
Hardly a new issue, this same type of incident dates back to 1966. I think this particular one is getting so much attention because A: there was video, and B: we have the internet to discuss it for 8 pages. Here are some accidents involving full scale/model collisions and also full scale accidents caused by avoiding model aircraft:
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...17X03877&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...11X15807&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...08X06127&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=34096&key=0
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=42173&key=0
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=69222&key=0
I found these other cases while searching the NTSB archives for the collision data, and thought these were rather interesting. These five accidents below were all the result of aerial searches for an RC model using a full scale aircraft gone wrong. They seem to be particularly deadly, as several have caused complete loss of aircraft and pilot/passengers. Flying low and slow near treetops is an unrecoverable scenario after entering a stall. Be careful if you ever attempt to use an airplane to find your downed model!
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...13X30280&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X24058&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X24000&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...14X40816&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=34905&key=0
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...17X03877&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...11X15807&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...08X06127&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=34096&key=0
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=42173&key=0
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=69222&key=0
I found these other cases while searching the NTSB archives for the collision data, and thought these were rather interesting. These five accidents below were all the result of aerial searches for an RC model using a full scale aircraft gone wrong. They seem to be particularly deadly, as several have caused complete loss of aircraft and pilot/passengers. Flying low and slow near treetops is an unrecoverable scenario after entering a stall. Be careful if you ever attempt to use an airplane to find your downed model!
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...13X30280&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X24058&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...12X24000&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...14X40816&key=1
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=34905&key=0
#44
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RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
if you have the right of way can you just run down something that is sitting there basicly not moveing
take for example if a honda civic has issues and is dead on the road in a turning lane and you have a green light ?
can you go full power turn on the smoke run into the civic . and clame you had the right to be there ?
take for example if a honda civic has issues and is dead on the road in a turning lane and you have a green light ?
can you go full power turn on the smoke run into the civic . and clame you had the right to be there ?
#46
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RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
ORIGINAL: zacharyR
if you have the right of way can you just run down something that is sitting there basicly not moveing
take for example if a honda civic has issues and is dead on the road in a turning lane and you have a green light ?
can you go full power turn on the smoke run into the civic . and clame you had the right to be there ?
if you have the right of way can you just run down something that is sitting there basicly not moveing
take for example if a honda civic has issues and is dead on the road in a turning lane and you have a green light ?
can you go full power turn on the smoke run into the civic . and clame you had the right to be there ?
does that question even remotely matter in this case???
Sheesh,... you guys are really out there....
#47
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RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
It makes no sense. If someone's life is at risk, wether or not it is their own fault, the RC pilot should forget about his toy airplane. There is absolutely no comparison. I agree the full scale pilot messed up, but what I do not understand is why the RC pilot should be pitied. How he reacted was completely inappropriate seeing the possible consequences. When someone could have potentially died, you do not put your material items before it.
I believe there was a complete breakdown in control when the accident happened. The full scale should not have buzzed the runway without permission. The air boss should not have allowed the maneuver to take place. The model pilot should not have flown without a spotter at a private airstrip. The model pilot should not have continued to hover the model when it was apparent an accident was inevitable. He should have dumped it. Plain and simple.
#48
RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
ORIGINAL: GraemeEllis
It makes no sense. If someone's life is at risk, wether or not it is their own fault, the RC pilot should forget about his toy airplane. There is absolutely no comparison. I agree the full scale pilot messed up, but what I do not understand is why the RC pilot should be pitied. How he reacted was completely inappropriate seeing the possible consequences. When someone could have potentially died, you do not put your material items before it.
It makes no sense. If someone's life is at risk, wether or not it is their own fault, the RC pilot should forget about his toy airplane. There is absolutely no comparison. I agree the full scale pilot messed up, but what I do not understand is why the RC pilot should be pitied. How he reacted was completely inappropriate seeing the possible consequences. When someone could have potentially died, you do not put your material items before it.
I believe there was a complete breakdown in control when the accident happened. The full scale should nothave buzzed the runway without permission. The air boss should not have allowed the maneuver to take place. The model pilot should not have flown without a spotter at a private airstrip. The model pilot should not have continued to hover the model when it was apparent an accident was inevitable. He should have dumped it. Plain and simple.
It has been said that the rc pilot thought the air boss was his spotter, AlsoI read somewhere that the air boss shouted to the rc pilot to get out of the way andin trying to pull out of hishover it appearshe pulled in front of the full scale.
The thought has occured to me that maybe the reason the NTSB came up with what it did is because maybe the full scale pilot along with the air boss replaced
the rc pilots plane inorder to get him to play ball with them. im sure 5to6K is a lot cheaper than loosin your pilot license and all of the potential problems that may
come with it
#49
RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft
ORIGINAL: exeter_acres
does that question even remotely matter in this case???
Sheesh,... you guys are really out there....
ORIGINAL: zacharyR
if you have the right of way can you just run down something that is sitting there basicly not moveing
take for example if a honda civic has issues and is dead on the road in a turning lane and you have a green light ?
can you go full power turn on the smoke run into the civic . and clame you had the right to be there ?
if you have the right of way can you just run down something that is sitting there basicly not moveing
take for example if a honda civic has issues and is dead on the road in a turning lane and you have a green light ?
can you go full power turn on the smoke run into the civic . and clame you had the right to be there ?
does that question even remotely matter in this case???
Sheesh,... you guys are really out there....