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RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft

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Old 05-27-2011, 06:03 PM
  #51
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ira d


Quote:
ORIGINAL: GraemeEllis

It makes no sense. If someone's life is at risk, wether or not it is their own fault, the RC pilot should forget about his toy airplane. There is absolutely no comparison. I agree the full scale pilot messed up, but what I do not understand is why the RC pilot should be pitied. How he reacted was completely inappropriate seeing the possible consequences. When someone could have potentially died, you do not put your material items before it.
I believe there was a complete breakdown in control when the accident happened. The full scale should not have buzzed the runway without permission. The air boss should not have allowed the maneuver to take place. The model pilot should not have flown without a spotter at a private airstrip. The model pilot should not have continued to hover the model when it was apparent an accident was inevitable. He should have dumped it. Plain and simple.


It has been said that the rc pilot thought the air boss was his spotter, Also I read somewhere that the air boss shouted to the rc pilot to get out of the way and in trying to pull out of his hover it appears he pulled in front of the full scale.

The thought has occured to me that maybe the reason the NTSB came up with what it did is because maybe the full scale pilot along with the air boss replaced
the rc pilots plane in order to get him to play ball with them. im sure 5to6K is a lot cheaper than loosin your pilot license and all of the potential problems that may
come with it
? I never heard that they replaced his plane??? or are you just speculating?
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Old 05-27-2011, 07:07 PM
  #52
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft

Just an FYI as I am not interested in getting too involved in this debate but...
At Top Gun, FL Jets, Monster Planes and the Warbird event (future event slated for December 8-10) Frank Tiano holds at Lakeland Linder airport we are fully coordinated with the FAA on all flying activities. The events are held in a corner of the massive airport (10,000+ foot main runway which we are no where near). The crosswind runway which we are closest too, but not over, is closed with a NOTAM. There is a paid tower man on site at all times who is in communication with the tower at all times. We don't start flying in the morning until he is there and has given us the OK. We stand down when we are asked to do so by the tower immediately and everyone is grounded at the end of the day when the tower person leaves the field.

Glad noone was hurt here and hope we all come away with a little more knowledge than we had before the "incident"
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Old 05-27-2011, 07:11 PM
  #53
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft


Quote:
ORIGINAL: jonkoppisch


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ira d


Quote:
ORIGINAL: GraemeEllis

It makes no sense. If someone's life is at risk, wether or not it is their own fault, the RC pilot should forget about his toy airplane. There is absolutely no comparison. I agree the full scale pilot messed up, but what I do not understand is why the RC pilot should be pitied. How he reacted was completely inappropriate seeing the possible consequences. When someone could have potentially died, you do not put your material items before it.
I believe there was a complete breakdown in control when the accident happened. The full scale should nothave buzzed the runway without permission. The air boss should not have allowed the maneuver to take place. The model pilot should not have flown without a spotter at a private airstrip. The model pilot should not have continued to hover the model when it was apparent an accident was inevitable. He should have dumped it. Plain and simple.


It has been said that the rc pilot thought the air boss was his spotter, AlsoI read somewhere that the air boss shouted to the rc pilot to get out of the way andin trying to pull out of hishover it appearshe pulled in front of the full scale.

The thought has occured to me that maybe the reason the NTSB came up with what it did is because maybe the full scale pilot along with the air boss replaced
the rc pilots plane inorder to get him to play ball with them. im sure 5to6K is a lot cheaper than loosin your pilot license and all of the potential problems that may
come with it
? I never heard that they replaced his plane??? or are you just speculating?
Yes I am
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Old 05-27-2011, 07:16 PM
  #54
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft


Quote:
ORIGINAL: GraemeEllis

I still don't understand why the RC pilot tried to maneuver out of the way.
Chop the throttle.
It is just a natural reaction to try to recover from the maneuver you are in plus I dont think the rc pilot had the full scale in sight.
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Old 05-27-2011, 07:30 PM
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft

I don't know about you but when I am flying I keep eyes on the model at all times. If he was doing this the spotter was his only way of getting warning about the oncoming plane.
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Old 05-27-2011, 07:58 PM
  #56
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft


Quote:
ORIGINAL: zacharyR

if you have the right of way can you just run down something that is sitting there basicly not moveing


take for example if a honda civic has issues and is dead on the road in a turning lane and you have a green light ?

can you go full power turn on the smoke run into the civic . and clame you had the right to be there ?
Depends..... if it's an r/c Civic.... YOU BET!!

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Old 05-27-2011, 09:04 PM
  #57
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft

ira d has it right. There is a general prudential rule that says if a collision is imminent even the party with the right of way is required to take evasive action.

There is a possibility that this was an unavoidable accident, but since we don't know all the facts, we do not know which, if any, of the parties acted in a prudent manner. What would the ordinarily reasonable and prudent man do under the same or similar circumstances?

I don't know if the FAA has any administrative law rules that might be different. Agencies can be weird. It looks like this investigation is not moving forward very rapidly.

Since we have not heard about any civil actions, and I have not been able to read any administrative decisions thus far, I think an out of court settlement would be best, and has probably happened, as ira d speculates.

If anybody has some active links on this case and others like it, let's see them. I have seen videos of the crash, but NTSB findings and others are bad links.
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Old 05-27-2011, 09:50 PM
  #58
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft

looks like the full scale pilot was doing a low pass for the show and the rc was doing a hover for the show and there was a lack of comunication

watch this is often followed by o s++t
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Old 05-27-2011, 10:05 PM
  #59
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft

Again,
Common sence out the window. Either full scale fly by's at one time or RC models, you cant have both as you can see its a recipy for a dissarter waiting to happen. Whom ever thought about this brilliant idea (sarcasm) should get the idiot of the year award. And why is NTSB blaming the RC pilot, what video where they watching?
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Old 05-28-2011, 03:14 AM
  #60
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft

All I can figure is someone threw the rc pilot under the bus, ie all of a sudden there's a 'box' to fly in. I think it was everyone's fault btw! The ntsb seem to be basing their opinion on the 'fact' that the rc pilot flew out of the 'box'. What I would like to know is, what was the box? Evidently the box was on the camera side of the runway? If so, why was the airboss walking out with the rc pilot and why didn't he tell him that he needed to fly where he was told or land?? Sounds like the ntsb was miss informed..
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Old 05-28-2011, 03:29 AM
  #61
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft

based on facts of the incident;

1. The RC pilot voilated the boundries set for its operation
2. The MC of the event did not perform his duties effectively;
a. by not establishing a reasonable separation distance between the runway (full scale) and the designated RC flying area ( a no fly zone between the two types of flying).
b. by not effectively observing and communicating to both the full scale and Radio Controlled aircraft pilots.
3. No matter what maneuver the full scale pilot was performing, he was within his designated operating area.
Note; Its not easy to see an RC plane when traveling at the speed he was, the number of things the full scale pilot had to observe at such an event would be tough to spot. I doubt most, (not all) but most people making comments have not spent a lot of time in full scale and understand how tough it would have been to spot the RC plane hovering. I seriously doubt the full scale pilot would not avoid an impact knowing it could kill him.
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Old 05-28-2011, 03:42 AM
  #62
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft

I basically agree with you except I don't think that we can call #1 a fact? What were the boundaries set for the rc pilot? If he did, why didn't the airboss shut him down immediately? Not walk with him. If I remember right, after the incident the airboss even said that it wasn't his fault.. In all of the threads and vids, nothing was ever said about a boundary.

I've flown a lot of shows/fly ins and the airboss is always quick to let you know where to fly and to let who ever know if they're in the wrong airspace..
There's only been a couple of times that I've been told to fly on the crowd side of the main runway and that has been when there's a taxiway and a main runway, to fly between the 2. In this case, there was only the main runway
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Old 05-28-2011, 04:17 AM
  #63
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft


Quote:
ORIGINAL: BarracudaHockey

The whole thing was a Charlie Foxtrot from the get-go.

The R/C was asked to be there and put on a demo.

The R/C didn't have an adaquate spotter.

The FS was showing off.

The ''air boss'' didn't seem to have a handle on much.

Break any link in the chain and there wouldn't have been a mishap.

I said it before but it bears repeating, we have a duty to see and avoid manned aircraft.

Sounds like you've attended one of the military aviation safety schools....I went to the Navy one. They use two models, either the "Swiss Cheese" or "Links in a chain". Point is, an accident is a series of events/decisions that all have to happen in a specific order to cause a mishap.
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Old 05-28-2011, 04:39 AM
  #64
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ira d

So if a jet and glider find they are in the same airspace but the jet does not see the glider does the
glider have any resonsibility to try to avoid the jet? What do you think would happen if they had a
collison and it could be proven in court the the glider had seen the jet in time to take evasive
action but did not because he had the right of way.
In short, YES. Each aircraft has a responsibility to avoid other aircraft, even if those other aircraft have the right of way.

Per FAR Part 91.113, Right of Way rules: "(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft."
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Old 05-28-2011, 06:28 AM
  #65
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft

Am guessing the NTSB has either moved the finding or pulled the page, it was active when it was posted. I have a copy of the pdf but its on my office PC, if anyone else has a copy maybe they can post it sooner than I'd be able to.
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Old 05-28-2011, 07:14 AM
  #66
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft

"I have even seen people actually go out on the run way and wave of full scale planes when
they were trying to land at the wrong time or place. " - Ira d

Ira, you make your point and then put this like it is a safe practice???? Not trying to start a fight, but this is terrible.

In my specific case it was lack of control that could have gotten someone killed. I was doing a demo with a friends 1/3 scale Laser. A local guy started doing touch and gos on the grass area we were assigned to fly in. Why? Cause he did not want us there and he was trying to make a point. My point? The Laser I was flying would have made a huge hole in the Cub he was flying. Possibly causing him to crash. Who would have been blamed? ME!! As it was, I got over the top of a hanger and did slow circles for 15 minutes and landed when he was done. After the fact I packed up my stuff and that was the last full scale event I ever flew at. I am not saying that there can't be a peaceful coexistence between RC and full scale. But how do you know which kind of event you are going to?


David
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Old 05-28-2011, 08:44 AM
  #67
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft

I kept reading where someone doesn't understand the right of way idea.

They decide this by
1. Is there a person in the aircraft (In other words, Is there someones life on the line?)
2. What control does that person have over the aircraft.
A balloon has priority over a sail plane because a sailplane can control all axis over the aircraft and a balloon has to ride the wind. But a sailplane takes priority over a powered aircraft because no matter what, the sailplanes going down. And if you're about to say well a balloon can just go up real fast. No they can't. when they are going down it doesn't react fast enough to just climb out, and they have to ride where the wind takes them so if they are heading towards something and they bolt towards the last minute, they will probably hit it. A sailplane can maneuver to land in a different place on the same field.

Now this being said, IMO the air boss is responsible.

If there is a full scale aircraft, in the air, especially in the area of an airport private or not, you know that there is a possibility the aircraft is going to be flying low whether they are landing, taking off or bolting on a landing or just doing a fly by. There could even be an emergency that brings that plane down.

As someone stated earlier, it is VERY hard to see any small aircraft in the air flying. You have to watch your instruments and where you are flying. You see a Lot of green and gray, and believe it or not, unless something is lime green and HUGE it will blend a lot of times with the environment.

Now this being said the air boss or person who was running the show, should have had every r/c pilot or other aircraft wait until the previous plane or inbound plane landed or has flown away so that he knew the airspace was clear.

Now someone mentioned why didn't the r/c pilot just cut the throttle? He was in the middle of flying his plane, the person told him at the last second to get out of the way. Now if you are flying your plane on any day and someone says you need to get your plane out of the way, do you just cut the throttle? Probably not. More and likely you will power up and fly away especially if you are in a hover. Should he have cut the power? Probably, but most times you don't think to do that. You just power up and fly on.

Unfortunately given the rules of the FAA and whomever else, you are pitting a private individual against a Federal agency. The federal agency sees that there was an individual, flying in his real plane, so there is a life on the line, at a full scale airport, even if it was a private field, against a radio controlled aircraft not at an r/c field, no life form in the aircraft. Now I realize that some airports allow r/c pilots to fly, I have flown at 4 different ones, but no matter where I fly I was always told that if there was a full scale airplane in the area to land quickly, even if the plane is just flying past because you never know when they will have an emergency.

The Federal agents are going to side with the Pilot of the full scale aircraft.

Now the poor r/c pilot was just doing what he was told. Go ahead and fly. Having been told he was cleared to fly by the air boss, he shouldn't be held responsible.
This is big one because this tells the r/c pilot he is clear in the airspace.

What I am trying to say I guess is unfortunately given the rules I can see how the pilot of the full scale plane was not held responsible, but the r/c pilot shouldn't be held responsible for this incident either. It should be the responsibility of the the air boss or the field he is a part of. Especially if there are any funds to be distributed for replacement of expensive aircraft.

I just hope this was an AMA sanctioned demonstration.
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:04 AM
  #68
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft

Quote:
ORIGINAL: jonkoppisch

I basically agree with you except I don't think that we can call #1 a fact? What were the boundaries set for the rc pilot? If he did, why didn't the airboss shut him down immediately? Not walk with him. If I remember right, after the incident the airboss even said that it wasn't his fault.. In all of the threads and vids, nothing was ever said about a boundary.

I've flown a lot of shows/fly ins and the airboss is always quick to let you know where to fly and to let who ever know if they're in the wrong airspace..
There's only been a couple of times that I've been told to fly on the crowd side of the main runway and that has been when there's a taxiway and a main runway, to fly between the 2. In this case, there was only the main runway
In the NTSB report it was stated that the RC pilot was not to fly past the edge of the runway. This line of demarcation is not much of a safety margin, a microscopicly thin line of separation, not very managable or safe. Based on that fact, the CD of the event who was serving as spotter for the RC pilot and who accepted the responsibility of coordinating full scale and RC aircraft did not assure proper adherence to this previously agreed zone. The RC pilot voilated the zone and the CD failed to ensure the zone was not violated. No matter what manouver the fulls cale was performing, he did not violate anyones airspace and stayed within his zone so it really didnt matter what he was doing, it was his zone.
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:53 AM
  #69
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft

A little more to it than that.. According to the link that still works, http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news..._204696-1.html

"The NTSB said the model was getting out of a vertical prop thrust hover when it strayed over the active runway and outside the RC box"

"The report says the organizer of the event briefed the RC pilots before the show and warned them to stay east of the active runway but it questions whether the separation between the two zones was policed effectively"

So, according to this the rc plane wasn't even to be over the active runway but yet the airboss is walking right beside him all over the active runway..... Can we say that something just doesn't add up? How sad of an airboss is it that right from the start allows not only the rc plane BUT the pilot and the airboss HIMSELF on the active runway when according to the ntsb report it was to remain clear...
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:44 PM
  #70
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft


Quote:
ORIGINAL: daveopam

"I have even seen people actually go out on the run way and wave of full scale planes when
they were trying to land at the wrong time or place. " - Ira d

Ira, you make your point and then put this like it is a safe practice???? Not trying to start a fight, but this is terrible.




David

Im not quite sure what you are trying to say. I dont see any thing wrong with waving off a aircraft if need be.
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Old 05-28-2011, 02:53 PM
  #71
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft

Its the "out on the runway" part thats disturbing.
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Old 05-28-2011, 04:10 PM
  #72
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft

ya think?
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:16 PM
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft


Quote:
ORIGINAL: tenacious101010

Its the "out on the runway" part thats disturbing.
Let me take a little time and explain, I was at rc event maybe 12 or so years ago I dont know who organized the event or much else about it. The event
was held at a small airstrip that appeared at times to be used by full scale planes a full scale piper cub flew by and at the time there were no rc planes
in the air next the piper lined up with the runway droped his flaps and was going to land one of the guys ran out on the runway and waved him off and
the piper flew off dont know where he went. After seeing this I just assumed that the rc guys had exclusive use of the air strip that day and the piperwas
not supposed to be there but apparentlyhe didnt know it I dont remember if there were a X at the ends of runway or not. Another time I was at a rc field
that did have X's on the runway and a full scale tried to land there and had to be waved off twice I think he was lost and must have been looking for the
airport a couple of miles away. In this case the rc runway was maybe 600 ft long so I dont what the pilot was thinking he may have got down ok but would
have had a hard time taking off again, I also remember this plane had a canadian tail number dont know if that had anything to do with the incedent or
not.
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Old 05-29-2011, 04:10 AM
  #74
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft

Was it a full scale plane event or an rc plane event. If it was a full scale event there shouldn't have been a rc plane in 3 miles, if it was an rc event there shouldn't have been any full scale planes... flying both in an airport at the same time is a stupid idea at best and down right retarded on everyones count at the worst. Things happen and people make mistakes.
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Old 05-29-2011, 02:21 PM
  #75
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Default RE: RC Pilot blamed for Collision w/ Aircraft

Quote:
 How he reacted was completely inappropriate seeing the possible consequences.
Thye first thing he said was, "that could have killed somebody", or something similar.  Then he complained about his plane.  I did not consider that inappropriate at all.
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