zacharyR

My Feedback: (5)

I'd just like to point out alot of pepole fly unmastered.... 3D and seem reckless


and i think we can agree on that ?

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

When we first sign up for this hobby, we should all realize that you need to keep your wits about you, especially while other guys are flying...

Regardless of who has mastered what, the worst model aviation accidents I've witnessed were all performed by "masters".

I've got no problem with a guy who flies his plane with reckless abandon for his plane's safety...just as long as he doesn't include me in his daredevil program.

Jezmo

Most folks tend to forget that most 3D maneuvers are performed with the aircraft moving VERY VERY slowly. The wing is no longer flying in the usual sense and that leaves two very obvious reasons to be somewhat less fearful. The plane is far less likely to inflict serious damage to whatever it might strike and second if an individual finds themselves the unlikely target of said plane they have MUCH MUCH more time to get out of the way. I personally feel far more safe with someone doing rolling harriers 2 ft off the deck, right in front of me, than with a jet pilot doing 200 mile per hour passes around the field. If the 3D pilot has a brain cramp and loses control, I can easily step out of the way of the aircraft, if I am paying attention, as I should be. I personally fly many different styles with extreme speed prop planes being my preference for the vast majority of my 40+ years of flying. I have only been trying to learn 3D for the last 5 years or so and have attended just about every event held in the greater Houston, TX area during that time. (Probably close to a hundred events) I've never felt the least bit nervous when standing on the flight line which is more than I can say for standing on the flight line of a Jet event. I am going on record as saying, I believe there are more than a few pilots that are simply offended by someone doing something they cannot. It is by far the most challenging thing I have tried as it requires an incredible amount of manual dexterity, thought control, and rapid fire decision making. Two feet off the deck, you hit the wrong control, you hit the dirt. (Around here we like to say, OOPS wrong rudder LOL)

P.S. One other factor I believe is involved here, As a society we are losing "Tolerance" for others. Not everyone thinks exactly like the next person, nor should they. If they did it would one very dull place to live.

cfircav8r

My Feedback: (1)

Yes they tend to fly very slowly, however that 22" propeller is moving very fast. If you choose to fly a rolling harrier across the flight line to "show off," we will have words, and no I should be paying attention to MY A/C not yours. Anyone that considers that to be a hater that is just mad because they can't do it needs to grow up. I have seen way too many people being labeled haters because they raised safety concerns. I don't care how good a pilot you are, you can't know when or if you will have a radio or mechanical problem that will make that A/C uncontrollable. Whether you are flying 3D, heli's, scale, etc. you have to maintain safe practices and follow club rules. I've seen too many, so called adults, fly with the attitude that they can risk others because they believe they are so good nothing can go wrong. Often those that are the problem (unsafe flyer's of all types) tend to be too ignorant or arrogant to see how unsafe they are flying and blame envy for the complaints. To say that a flyer that doesn't fly 3D doesn't have the ability is ridiculous. I have seen many scale flyer's that can make their plane do anything it is capable of with great precision. That in no way makes them incapable, only unpracticed, and yet if they were to bring up safety concerns they would be labeled a hater by the vast majority of 3D pilots that I have encountered. On the other end I have seen more than enough 3D'ers hate on "circle flyer's" for being "lame, boring and obviously untalented flyer's. If every flyer could actually act like an adult this would not be an issue and we could all enjoy flying how we choose.

aussiesteve

I think the reason a lot of people dislike 3d'ers is because a prolonged series of low passes and hovers is nearly as monotonously boring as "heli tricks". Sure there are the occassional flyers who can make it interesting but the majority really aren't that good at it and the major spectacle of it is the crash.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

Could not agree more!!! I will also add that someone who claims 3D is the most challenging flying should print out the IMAC unlimited sequence and start practicing it with the intent of doing the manuvers correctly. You can't hide mistakes in scored aerobatics but you sure can in 3D flying.

That being said. as long as we ALL follow our clubs safety rules and be curtious to one another all this is a non issue for the most part.

Jezmo

Yes it does take great skill to fly the IMAC routine but most of them fly the freestyle as well. Sounds like someone got their feelings hurt. Sorry, I won't say anything else that might do so.

P.S. For the record I did NOT say that the propeller wasn't an issue, I never said they should be allowed to fly across the flight line to "show off" and about the "we will have words" be careful with yours as that might be considered a threat by some. Sir speaking of growing up, reread your own post. It strikes me as somewhat childish with a strong air of hatred, just my opinion though. You are certainly entitled to yours.

speedracerntrixie

My Feedback: (29)

This is purlely opinion but 3D and Freestyle is not the same. Freestyle as being part of an IMAC event requires one to demonstrate the entire flight envelope. Or at least it used to. In 13 years of flying IMAC in the SW region, I have seen freestyle flown at only 4 events.

mithrandir

My Feedback: (2)

well... it has been my observation at no less than 15 different flying venues that the pilots who pose the most risk to people and property are the inept warbird pilots who are pissin' and moaning about how unsafe 3D flying is inbetween attempts at flying and NOT crashing/tipstalling/bouncing into the pit area.....

Regardless of the activity, basic couertesy seems to be a fundamental ingredient to peaceful coexistance...

cfircav8r

My Feedback: (1)

The propeller is part of the plane and the attitude that it is safer because it is going slow is why 3D is looked down upon by many. And you used the words "I personally feel far more safe with someone doing rolling harriers 2 ft off the deck, right in front of me" This eludes to the fact that you would be comfortable doing this as well. What would you call that type of flying except showing off, when standard safety practices dictate all flying be done on the other side of the runway? A threat is "I'll take you out back" words are words, and hate, no I just don't like being put in danger for someone else's amusement.

Jezmo

This from a speech given around the birth of the US by John Winthrop. “We must delight in each other, make others’ condition our own, rejoice together, mourn together, labor, and suffer together.� Society is losing the ability to think that way these days and it is evident at some of the flying fields. If we are to continue to be a great nation and even to rise to greater heights then we must continue to embrace these principles. Civility is key lest we become like most third world nations where small separate groups or tribes, constantly at war with each other, are the norm.

ceecrb1

I honestly dont think 3d is really the problem. Its the type of pilot.
Yes I will admit that 3d´s nature generally requires that it is low down and close in, generally where the runway is...
But I have the same problem in my club but a slight difference.

we have 3d heli champions in our club as well as a heli "imac style" champion, when they fly, nobody will even start an engine... not because they demand it, but because the other members of the club just to this.
Now, just today I put my 30cc plane in the starting area to indicate "me next", while a heli 3d pilot was close to finishing. I returned to the bench area to get my TX, the 3d pilot lands, and at that moment 3 guys plugged in their lipos to their foamies, and launched them and had a group foamy 3d session right over my plane......

So not only had they "jumped in line", but they decided to hover RIGHT over my plane, and therefore right over the starting area... so my plane is in danger of damage and I am unable to either retrieve it or start it and fly somewhere else...

Later on the same people decided to have a formation funjet flight, while I was flying, which I dont mind, there is plenty sky for everybody. What I DO mind is that I was flying from the usual location about 5 meters from the runway (I mean me, not the plane) On the makers we use for acrobatic practice. Our runway is about 40 meters ish from the safety fence, They were at the safety fence, passing their funjets between me and them... in the gap between the runway and the fence.

They actually wondered why I got angry and why I was complaining..........................

Like I say, I think its just down to how much other people care about other members flying experience or even if they realize that what they are doing is rude/inappropriate/dangerous etc etc

wyo69cowboy

My Feedback: (2)

What is most R/C flying, but "showing off"? A warbird, scale plane, sport plane, EDF, jet, etc, doing a high speed pass, upright or inverted, down the runway, is something almost all of us have seen at most club fields. That is every bit as dangerous as "showing off" doing rolling harriers, hovers, etc by the 3D crowd. I like both styles of flying; there's room for both, just not the attitudes on either side...

DenverJayhawk

Please. I see turbine guys flying their F16s at 190mph a couple feet off the deck and if you don't think they are showing off, then you need a reality check. That's easily more dangerous than a 89" 3D model with a 22" prop doing a roller 2ft off the ground at 5mph. Every good pilot likes to show off now and then and I personally feel much safer with someone that has mastered the stick inputs for a low, slow roller than a turbine jock showing how low and fast he can fly down the runway. On a separate note though, those turbine jets are damn impressive.

cfircav8r

My Feedback: (1)

I never said other flying was not capable of being dangerous now did I? If the jet is being flown at the proper distance then yes I would consider that maneuver far less dangerous than an up close and personal 5mph rolling harrier with a 89" model. All flying has an aspect of danger but we mitigate that risk by following certain safety standards, such as flying on the other side of the runway, and minimizing the time and maximizing the distance that a plane is pointed towards people. I have a problem with anyone, flying anything, choosing to expose my family, or me, to unnecessary risk especially when it's for their own amusement. Anyone whose only safety margin is their skill is a fool and an accident waiting to happen. I have nothing against showing off when the only undue risk is to the model, and possibly the pilots ego.

combatpigg

My Feedback: (3)

cfircav8r, this is very well said.

The pilots at my field who think that hovering in the vicinity of other pilots who are trying to concentrate on flying their own planes is intrinsically safe are pilots who will get warned once, then sent packing.

DenverJayhawk

i respect your post. When I hover, i only do it over the runway if i'm the only person flying. Otherwise i do it over the designated 3D flying area. I don't 3D over the pits or pilot box. But if I'm out there first, then my position is the others can wait until i am done flying, especially since my flights are no more than 5 mins. I will also do the same and wait till the others have landed before i 3D over the runway. I will stop flying over the runway as soon as the racers and turbine guys stop doing the same. This thread is about why 3D flying is hated and a few people have brought up the fact that it's because we fly over the runway and "show off". This is BS because lots of people fly over the runway in a manner much more dangerous than a slow roller on the deck.

wind junkie

My Feedback: (1)

Exactly correct. And what is assumed in this statement is IF the pilot performing that slow roller on the deck (over the runway) is comfortable and skilled enough to attempt that stunt, (s)he may also be reasonably trustworthy to cut the throttle and let the plane settle to the ground should something go wrong. Implied is the very low energy ramifications of a slow moving plane hitting dirt or pavement from only a few feet in altitude in contrast with a high speed fly by at the same altitude (high energy 'splatter' ).

Assuming equal chances of component or pilot failures, the low energy 3D case is going to be safer.

Also consider a heli crash from the same altitude. The 3D bird may shed a prop blade which is comparable to a heli blade strike and either blade may fly over the pit area, however in my experience the heli crashes I've seen often turn out much worse than 3D plank crash because the heli often beats itself up after the initial impact, shedding parts as it goes which doesn't happen with a 3D plank.

Anyone can be wreckless, but the irony of the whole issue is that if you have a 3D guy who has progressed beyond the initial learning stages and demonstrates the ability to fly down low and still keep the bird in the air despite the 3D antics, it is probable the safety concerns are well understood along with the physics of how various crashes will unfold. (in part, because many of these crashes have probably already been realized hopefully with a history of favorable outcomes to all involved).

To once again borrow a line from Dirty Harry : "A man's got to know his limitations."

wyo69cowboy

My Feedback: (2)

Exactly. An engineer could chime in here, but the kinetic energy of a 50cc plane hovering or doing slow 3D moves down the flight line worries me much less than a .40 size glow plane doing a 100+mph pass "in the pattern" down the runway, or even just beyond the runway. Those are normal AMA safety stipulations (i.e. flying on the far side of the runway) but an extra 50' of cushion doesn't make me all warm and fuzzy when someone's crankin' up a fast bird, be it pylon, warbird, jet, etc...

cfircav8r

My Feedback: (1)

In 30 years of flying I have seen many crashes of many different types of A/C and they have rarely hit more than about 20 feet off their original heading, and the ones that hit farther were much higher than a low pass. If the fast movers are flown correctly they are well outside of that distance and the time they are pointed towards the flight line is minimal and at a much greater distance. 3D aircraft can accelerate from a hover to a fairly high speed in a surprisingly short distance, and when that buffer is not there especially if it is maneuvered, even for a moment, towards the flight line things can get hairy quickly if there is a malfunction. Again I don't care how good you are, skill can't get you out of every situation. The argument that they are safer is the same one I used to hear from the heli guy's back in the 80's. They fly slower, they can drop it straight down in an instant, they have to be great pilots to even fly them,and they stay in a more confined space. We all know that heli's are not really safer just different. How many serious injuries have there been over the years that didn't involve a prop? All flying has risk, but we have to weigh the risks and decide if we are willing to accept those risks, but we should never make that decision for someone else. I don't hate 3D, I just have little tolerance for people trying to justify unsafe behavior by saying their skill and style are somehow inherently safer. You are never more dangerous then when you think nothing can go wrong.



Edited for spelling

aussiesteve

I agree with your entire post but especially that part of it.

The other consideration is that a lot of the "3D'ers" seem to have an innate need to do thier hovering near the flying pilots. That distraction alone can be dangerous to others.

But none are as bad or boring as the Jet jockeys who need to run their smelly engines quite loud in or next to the pit area, then proceed to do endless passes up and down the runways (with the use of their gyros to keep a straight line) and do little else. (I speak specifically about West Australia here as I have seen real Jet guys in other parts of the world that can do impressive displays - we just don't seem to have them here)

wyo69cowboy

My Feedback: (2)

This argument reminds me of similar arguments from the recent Reno Air Race tragedy: we cannot guarantee absolute safety or say there is no risk in our or just about any other motorsport-related activity. I agree with you that the rules are there for all of our safety, and I'm not advocating breaking them willy nilly. However, I still don't agree that a fast pass by a jet is less dangerous than 3D moves over the runway. It depends on many things: layout of the field/distance to pits/observation areas, fences(or not), wind direction, proper model setup/operation, and last but not least, pilot skill. I'm spoiled in my rural area; I can hover over the runway, because I'm usually the only one there. I'm sure it's much different for many of you; thus, the rise of these arguments. I'm just arguing that 3D flight is not inherently more dangerous, OR safer, than other R/C flight.

cfircav8r

My Feedback: (1)

Yes my point exactly, It is neither more or less dangerous. The danger increases with all types when poor attitudes, and bad judgment are used. The unfortunate reality is that the vast majority look bad because of a very few inconsiderate jerks.

wyo69cowboy

My Feedback: (2)

Good, we agree then! [8D] I think the point of this thread, though, is that 3D guys are perceived as more dangerous, amongst other opinions, and thus are not liked. Kinda like heli guys at first, or whatever other segment of flying that becomes popular at the local field, but is different than what the "standard" or "original" members fly...

I watched a heli guy(who was admittedly a very good flier) test n tune and do 3D tricks at a fun fly a couple of years ago, and boy, did he piss off the circle fliers! It comes down to consideration and skill. There are 3D guys who shouldn't be hovering in close (myself included at times lol), and warbird or sport fliers who make me wanna put my hardhat/kevlar vest on too! Safety can't be guaranteed by just following the rules(though that's a big percentage of it); you also need to be aware of your surroundings. We all like to "show off" a little; there's a time and place for all of it. Just hafta find that time, which is where the 3D'ers seem to get pushed out of the way sometimes...

DenverJayhawk

i think Helis are incredible. My only problem is they are annoyingly loud, even the electrics.