Snap rolls with gyros?
03-22-2013, 08:23 AM
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Snap rolls with gyros?
I have couple questions for “snap rolls” experts and the pilots who is using GYROs while performing aerobatics:
1) What if I will setup 3 gyros (like Futaba GYA431/GYA430) on ruder, elevator and as an option on ailerons?
Let’s assume I will bring the plane to “start” position for snap roll (nose up 45 degree) and start applying ONLY ailerons (w/o ruder and elevator).
Question: Will be ruder and elevator gyros do the job to keep plane in a good position to continue snap roll only by applying ailerons input and maintaining throttle input?
2) For snap roll in general => Will be it is better to remove “force generators” from the wing ends in order to easy off snap roll figure for the plane?
Thank you,
Andrei K.
1) What if I will setup 3 gyros (like Futaba GYA431/GYA430) on ruder, elevator and as an option on ailerons?
Let’s assume I will bring the plane to “start” position for snap roll (nose up 45 degree) and start applying ONLY ailerons (w/o ruder and elevator).
Question: Will be ruder and elevator gyros do the job to keep plane in a good position to continue snap roll only by applying ailerons input and maintaining throttle input?
2) For snap roll in general => Will be it is better to remove “force generators” from the wing ends in order to easy off snap roll figure for the plane?
Thank you,
Andrei K.
03-22-2013, 01:34 PM
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RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
Not exactly beginners stuff this.
You might get better responses on the IMAC or warbirds forums.
I am out of touch with current gyro tech but used to be able to switch my gyros off from the tranny when I did the crazy stuff.
You might get better responses on the IMAC or warbirds forums.
I am out of touch with current gyro tech but used to be able to switch my gyros off from the tranny when I did the crazy stuff.
03-22-2013, 07:41 PM
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RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
What you are talking about won't work. Gyros don't give control inputs. They just hold the plane in the same attitude it was in before. A properly set up gyro'd plane would just do an axial roll in the scenario you described. Snaps are all about stalling one wing, and a properly done on isn't going to pitch up 45 degrees before starting the roll.
03-23-2013, 08:13 AM
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RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
a beginner does not need gyros and an expert does not need gyros.
I think the only real use for them is in some very complex machines as some jets and helis.
I think the only real use for them is in some very complex machines as some jets and helis.
03-23-2013, 05:57 PM
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RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
At about half throttle, shove the right stick in the bottom left corner and the left stick over to to the left side. When you let go of the stick to neutral after the snaproll and the plane is level, the gyros will hold it on that line.
03-23-2013, 07:24 PM
#8
RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
Why would you want gyros in an airplane to start with. The object of RC is to fly the plane, not have something fly it for you. What is the fun in that. Might as well sit at home and fly the simulator.
Frank
Frank
03-23-2013, 08:38 PM
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RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
Gyros don't fly airplanes, they provide stability - "the ability to return a plane to it's original position after a disturbance." They are not autopilots nor flight directors.
"not have something fly it for you" is a bogus comment and misleading to the OP.
Kurt
"not have something fly it for you" is a bogus comment and misleading to the OP.
Kurt
03-23-2013, 10:17 PM
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RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
ORIGINAL: Bozarth
Gyros don't fly airplanes, they provide stability - ''the ability to return a plane to it's original position after a disturbance.'' They are not autopilots nor flight directors.
''not have something fly it for you'' is a bogus comment and misleading to the OP.
Kurt
Gyros don't fly airplanes, they provide stability - ''the ability to return a plane to it's original position after a disturbance.'' They are not autopilots nor flight directors.
''not have something fly it for you'' is a bogus comment and misleading to the OP.
Kurt
03-23-2013, 11:32 PM
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RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
Any plane that the owner thinks it is needed. They simply provide more stability - simple as that. One more avenue of the hobby. Need is subjective.
As for disturbances - we are talking about air disturbances. This is the basis for the entire aerodynamic study of both static and dynamic stability. Google the terms.
Kurt
As for disturbances - we are talking about air disturbances. This is the basis for the entire aerodynamic study of both static and dynamic stability. Google the terms.
Kurt
03-24-2013, 02:23 AM
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RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
Try driving your car without power steering or power brakes. It's just an assistant especially in the wind as said above. How many times have you went out to the field and had to go home because it was to windy. It's a none event with the gyros. Don't knock it till you've tried it.
It doesn't hinder your planes aerobatic ability at all.
It doesn't hinder your planes aerobatic ability at all.
03-24-2013, 03:39 AM
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RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
ORIGINAL: countilaw
Why would you want gyros in an airplane to start with. The object of RC is to fly the plane, not have something fly it for you. What is the fun in that. Might as well sit at home and fly the simulator.
Frank
Why would you want gyros in an airplane to start with. The object of RC is to fly the plane, not have something fly it for you. What is the fun in that. Might as well sit at home and fly the simulator.
Frank
I guess you have never use gyros ... am I correct?
You have to try it out (if you didn't) to see how much more fun you will get with that.
Simplest example=>gusty cross wind (half of the time at my field)
The landing looks butiful with elevator and aelerons gyros and very safe for close to $1000 plane.
I am using flap switch to activate both gyros at the same time while landing. All other time gyros are off.
Have you tried knife edge with gyros?
I am doing knife edge fine w/o gyros, but how good knife edge looks with gyros ... have you ever seen that?
You can do knife edge safely at 3-5 m altitude with gyros on even if you have just 15-20 knife edge flights as all your knife edge experience :-)
Gyros proides new level to your experience and allow you to do more compex figures safe and pleasant for your eyes :-)
I am exploring some (not all) aerobatic figures where gyros can be applied and benefit your experience.
Snap rolls probably is not a good figure where gyros can be applied...
I may try out barrel roll with 45 degree nose up applying ruder and elevators gyros.
I think it may work if only aelerons input is applied and throttle is maintaining altitude.
What do you think?
Andrei K.
03-24-2013, 03:39 AM
#15
RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
For the most part, the instructors that post here generally agree that removing or disabling the AFS on the Hobbico Nexstar, but it seems that maybe Hobbico followed the "complaints" and removed it from the Nexstar. I don't see it as an "option" nor a "feature" on the Nexstar any longer. There was a reason for that, and it's the same reason we do not recommend using a gyro on a trainer or a plane that a beginner may construct or fly. Even those more experienced pretty much overwhelmingly reject the use of gyros on a fixed wing RC aircraft.
They are more suited to helicopters and that's probably where they belong.
And as stated earlier, this is, after all, a Beginners forum.
CGr.
They are more suited to helicopters and that's probably where they belong.
And as stated earlier, this is, after all, a Beginners forum.
CGr.
03-24-2013, 04:15 AM
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RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
This is an ideal setup for a trainer plane, especially with the Eagle tree Guardian. which does have an auto stabilizer. It acts as though it had the trainer cord system. As a trainer, you get the plane totally out of control upside down, flip a switch and the plane goes to level flight. Calm your shattered nerves, turn the switch back off and do it again. This is great for those learning to fly who don't have club training assistance. Used to be a club instructor myself and this would take the pressure and hairpulling off of the instructors. We need our hair up here to keep warm. Just dialing in the Visionaire 3D which comes with the Spektrum system installed.
Just dialing in the Visionaire 3D which comes with the Spektrum system installed.
03-24-2013, 06:22 AM
#17
RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
In my limited experience, HH Beast and Mig15 with AS3X (and a bunch of helis), the gyro is looking at your stick position and providing the rate of roll, pitch, or yaw requested. So it will keep your aircraft level or in a knife edge or whatever if the sticks are centered (no change requested) and it will give whatever control throws you request when you do move the sticks. My AS3X machines both do wonderful snaps, and when I center the sticks they stop instantly, very cool! I can do all this stuff without a gyro but the gyro really cleans things up, it is a revelation in these little machines. I have had the gyro do some weird things in gusty winds when flying harrier type maneuvers as the planes are tiny and the gyro is trying to keep them on course, but again, if I am actively moving the sticks and flying thru the gusty conditions it is not a problem. BTW I liked your response to the haters but really, just ignore them if you like gyros.
On the subject of snaps my preferred method is to lead with elevator but you have to be quick with that so it doesn't show as an elevator break followed by a snap but rather a snap only. So from level flight or any other attitude my right stick goes straight back to the full up elevator no aileron stop and bounces back diagonally to the full right aileron no elevator position, like a check mark, and back to center. Meanwhile my rudder stick follows, in this instance full right rudder with a little burst of power to keep forward momentum and centered again. There are an endless variety of ways and attitudes do do snaps but this will give you a quick clean one that you can mix in to spice up other maneuvers. Try a 3/4 snap to knife edge if you like K/E
On the subject of snaps my preferred method is to lead with elevator but you have to be quick with that so it doesn't show as an elevator break followed by a snap but rather a snap only. So from level flight or any other attitude my right stick goes straight back to the full up elevator no aileron stop and bounces back diagonally to the full right aileron no elevator position, like a check mark, and back to center. Meanwhile my rudder stick follows, in this instance full right rudder with a little burst of power to keep forward momentum and centered again. There are an endless variety of ways and attitudes do do snaps but this will give you a quick clean one that you can mix in to spice up other maneuvers. Try a 3/4 snap to knife edge if you like K/E
03-24-2013, 06:26 AM
#18
RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
ORIGINAL: KitBuilder
Gyros... yuck
Gyros... yuck
Time for all the expert airman on here to tell us how good they are.
I have been in the hobby since the fifties and I am no-way a expert flyer and I use a gyro on my warbirds for rudder. A lot of these WWll planes like to "hunt" or wag their tail in rough weather. I am talking 25+ winds. The technology is there for a $130 so I am going to use it if it can make my time at the field more stress free. If I am in stright and level fight and I see the tail wagging back & forth in rough air I sure am not going to try and "catch it" with my rudder stick. I flip on the gyro and enjoy.
This happend at our field last year when the local expert tested a WWl biplane for a club member....but first had him disconnect the rudder gyro because he didn't like them.
The bipane did a ground loop ran into a fence post and broke the only prop the guy had.
That eveing people left the field and I told the WWl guy if he would re-hook up his rudder gyro I would give him a new prop and try it for him. I still had to steer with the rudder on take-off but the gyro "dampened" the hard forces. The gyro can feel it before I can see it.
03-24-2013, 06:47 AM
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RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
Yep, The ww2 warbirds are known for groundlooping on takoff. The gyro already has control stopping the groundlop while you're still thinking about. it.
The little Eflite Beast at 15 in. is a great windy day flier as said above.
The little Eflite Beast at 15 in. is a great windy day flier as said above.
03-24-2013, 08:07 AM
#21
RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
ORIGINAL: jester_s1
What you are talking about won't work. Gyros don't give control inputs. They just hold the plane in the same attitude it was in before. A properly set up gyro'd plane would just do an axial roll in the scenario you described. Snaps are all about stalling one wing, and a properly done on isn't going to pitch up 45 degrees before starting the roll.
What you are talking about won't work. Gyros don't give control inputs. They just hold the plane in the same attitude it was in before. A properly set up gyro'd plane would just do an axial roll in the scenario you described. Snaps are all about stalling one wing, and a properly done on isn't going to pitch up 45 degrees before starting the roll.
03-24-2013, 08:57 AM
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RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
And I would presume all of you guys that say Gyros are not needed and would not use them "Do Not" use a computer radio, nor do you use dual rates. After all, you set all your linkages up to perfection and are exceptionally gifted with the stick's as to not need the computer or dual rates.
I applaud you and your masterfull ability. As for the rest of us, we need the added help the computer provides as well as dual rates. And if the gyro will add a little more stability to our measly abilities all the better.
I applaud you and your masterfull ability. As for the rest of us, we need the added help the computer provides as well as dual rates. And if the gyro will add a little more stability to our measly abilities all the better.
03-24-2013, 11:24 AM
#23
RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
The problem is that the gyro will end up fighting the pilot while performing aerobatics. It may be an advantage to 3D flying while hovering and such but while setting up for a spin or doing a snap roll ( Not what the op described by the way ) the gyros will fight against what the airplane is doing unless you set it up on a switch to turn it off on those manuvers. Just for the record, all use of gyros are prohibited in ANY form of aerobatic competition and IMO the use of them will only teach you bad habits that will handicap you should you ever want to compete.
03-24-2013, 12:25 PM
#24
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RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
I would say that unless you have and use gyros, you should not be responding in this topic. If you are just going to say that it is a bad idea... you have already been heard... now for more open discussion.
I hear guys talking about how using gyros is not flying.... all that stuff... a gyro only does one thing on one axis... if there is UNCOMMANDED motion on that axis... it will counter that motion. It will allow the plane that ground loops to take off and fly as it will counter the wind forces before the pilot even see them. Is it cheating? In a pattern contest yes... if you are flying to look smooth and coordinated no. If you are flying in choppy wind, it may be the only way you could possibly fly.
To the OP... once you have given only aileron command... the plane will continue in straight forward roll and not snap... for that is not a snap command. A snap would be both sticks into the corners, thus all three channels, (aileron, elevator and rudder) would be commanded and the 3-axis gyro over ridden. If you are moving the sticks, you are getting all the motion and the gyro is doing nothing... so you can do anything that you could have done without the gyro.
It was funny last year how an experienced pilot flying an L-4 Grasshopper with rudder gyro was so smooth on takeoffs... he gradually reduced the gain on the gyro... finally removing it... then he was doing the ground loops that we all experienced learning to fly a cub. We all had a good laugh, but the bottom line is... if it saves your equipment from crashes... why not use all the technology available. This is RC Flying, not RC Crashing.
I am starting to use 3 axis gyros... not on everything, but I recognize their value. As the hobby advances, so should you.
I hear guys talking about how using gyros is not flying.... all that stuff... a gyro only does one thing on one axis... if there is UNCOMMANDED motion on that axis... it will counter that motion. It will allow the plane that ground loops to take off and fly as it will counter the wind forces before the pilot even see them. Is it cheating? In a pattern contest yes... if you are flying to look smooth and coordinated no. If you are flying in choppy wind, it may be the only way you could possibly fly.
To the OP... once you have given only aileron command... the plane will continue in straight forward roll and not snap... for that is not a snap command. A snap would be both sticks into the corners, thus all three channels, (aileron, elevator and rudder) would be commanded and the 3-axis gyro over ridden. If you are moving the sticks, you are getting all the motion and the gyro is doing nothing... so you can do anything that you could have done without the gyro.
It was funny last year how an experienced pilot flying an L-4 Grasshopper with rudder gyro was so smooth on takeoffs... he gradually reduced the gain on the gyro... finally removing it... then he was doing the ground loops that we all experienced learning to fly a cub. We all had a good laugh, but the bottom line is... if it saves your equipment from crashes... why not use all the technology available. This is RC Flying, not RC Crashing.
I am starting to use 3 axis gyros... not on everything, but I recognize their value. As the hobby advances, so should you.
03-24-2013, 03:38 PM
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RE: Snap rolls with gyros?
Here's another way to look at it. Was doing knifedge at slow speed and about 8 ft off the ground with about half rudder to hold that attitude. As it flew past me I could see the rudder wobbling back and forth fighting to hold that attitude countering the wind that was blowing. That about 15 degree attitude it was flying at, never changed because the gyro wouldn't let it.