Good starter for 3d?
08-07-2014, 08:43 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Good starter for 3d?
I currently have a CARF Extra 330L sitting in my basement, just needs 5" wheels and its ready to fly, however, never flown a 3d bird other than the Inversa 280(which blew apart last weekend). I want to get something that a Magnum 91 will fly it with. ARF of course, and nothing too expensive. I fly off grass too, so needs robust gear. I flew the Inversa OK but it was way too small for my eyes, and had to be hand launched so it wound up hitting the ground more than it flew(which is why it blew up). I sort of do 3D with my LT-40, I hovered it a few times until gravity won over the power of the OS. The CARF is huge with 104" span and wont fit in my car, so it has to be trailered, and because its somewhere around the $5K mark, I would much rather learn it on a much lessor $$$ plane IUNOWTIMEN.
Something under $200 maybe, I have a Funtana 90S but that plane is so light, and has a Hacker on it, but batteries for it are expensive, and I just dont feel that it will be a good plane to start with, Maybe once I have flown one for a while I might spend the time to convert it to glow or gas, maybe a nice Saito, and give it a try.
Most important thing, it Must be fun, It must not be a handful, and it must be stable. Think of a SIG 4*120 but in 3D.
Something under $200 maybe, I have a Funtana 90S but that plane is so light, and has a Hacker on it, but batteries for it are expensive, and I just dont feel that it will be a good plane to start with, Maybe once I have flown one for a while I might spend the time to convert it to glow or gas, maybe a nice Saito, and give it a try.
Most important thing, it Must be fun, It must not be a handful, and it must be stable. Think of a SIG 4*120 but in 3D.
08-07-2014, 12:23 PM
#2
Something like this is what you need. Be warned though. You will want to fly it all the time.
http://www.valleyviewrc.com/estore/v...k-pro-red.html
David
http://www.valleyviewrc.com/estore/v...k-pro-red.html
David
08-07-2014, 05:01 PM
#4
Thread Starter
Keep in mind I fly off grass, so those wheels are way too small and the gear stance looks a little skinny. That first one looks a little better, so will keep it in mind. I stopped at the LHS and all they had in the 91 size was a U-Can-Do. It didn't look like one I would enjoy. I did pick up a pair of 4 1/2" wheels so its got everything I need to fly the CARF now. The engine runs really good on that one.
08-08-2014, 04:11 AM
#6
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My story...
Almost 2 years ago I decided to learn more about 3D, and not long after that I was badly hooked. My first dedicated plane was a DLE 20 powered OMP Fusion. Fun, but I'm here to tell you that if you're as serious as I was, a gasser is probably not the best plan. To learn, you need to build stick time. A lot of it! You can't do that when your plane is on the bench in the midst of ANOTHER repair due to a botched maneuver... and botched maneuvers happen frequently!
I read about guys flying EPP electrics and decided to try that plan. Most think of the 32" class planes when thinking this route, but I wanted something I could see easier as well, plus I had seen the 32" planes trying to fly in wind that I fly in all the time. They're spending most of their time in survival mode in those conditions. So anyway, my first "foamy" was a 47" plane. This one:
http://www.nitroplanes.com/02a-004-swift-epp-kit.html
Turned out to be a pretty good move for me. Cost for plane, motor, electronic speed control, and servos (metal gear) is about a hundred bucks. It flies really well on 1500-1800 mah batteries, but can go to 2200 (for even better wind penetration?). Batteries, (you'll want 3-4 of them for an afternoon of flying) cost 12-15 each. Flight times will vary with what you are doing and battery size, but if I say 8-15 minutes I should be close.
If you aren't familiar with EPP, it's tough. When you do break it, it doesn't shatter or crumble into a hundred pieces. It's more of a tear, that can be quickly repaired by holding the 2 pieces together and using regular CA (and kicker) on it. No "foam safe" stuff required. Note that this is not typical of all foams! EPP specifically is the best plan BY FAR! Nothing else even close.
You can buy a better plane in this class if you need the best, but for learning, especially with the bucks spent for bang received principles applied, they're difficult to beat. Your first one may take 3-4 hours to assemble.
They fly great, they're cheap, and they're easy to fix. This makes them easy to fly close in to you, and close to the ground without fear. I'm just now replacing my first plane. It's got hundreds and hundreds of flights on it, and has been repaired a countless number of times. So many times I fear it's a little heavier than it was new - and I may benefit from something a little lighter? Otherwise, it's still flyable. Point being, cost per flying hour, everything, is pennies....
Holler if you're interested, be happy to share my setup regarding motor, speed control, servos, etc. -Al
Almost 2 years ago I decided to learn more about 3D, and not long after that I was badly hooked. My first dedicated plane was a DLE 20 powered OMP Fusion. Fun, but I'm here to tell you that if you're as serious as I was, a gasser is probably not the best plan. To learn, you need to build stick time. A lot of it! You can't do that when your plane is on the bench in the midst of ANOTHER repair due to a botched maneuver... and botched maneuvers happen frequently!
I read about guys flying EPP electrics and decided to try that plan. Most think of the 32" class planes when thinking this route, but I wanted something I could see easier as well, plus I had seen the 32" planes trying to fly in wind that I fly in all the time. They're spending most of their time in survival mode in those conditions. So anyway, my first "foamy" was a 47" plane. This one:
http://www.nitroplanes.com/02a-004-swift-epp-kit.html
Turned out to be a pretty good move for me. Cost for plane, motor, electronic speed control, and servos (metal gear) is about a hundred bucks. It flies really well on 1500-1800 mah batteries, but can go to 2200 (for even better wind penetration?). Batteries, (you'll want 3-4 of them for an afternoon of flying) cost 12-15 each. Flight times will vary with what you are doing and battery size, but if I say 8-15 minutes I should be close.
If you aren't familiar with EPP, it's tough. When you do break it, it doesn't shatter or crumble into a hundred pieces. It's more of a tear, that can be quickly repaired by holding the 2 pieces together and using regular CA (and kicker) on it. No "foam safe" stuff required. Note that this is not typical of all foams! EPP specifically is the best plan BY FAR! Nothing else even close.
You can buy a better plane in this class if you need the best, but for learning, especially with the bucks spent for bang received principles applied, they're difficult to beat. Your first one may take 3-4 hours to assemble.
They fly great, they're cheap, and they're easy to fix. This makes them easy to fly close in to you, and close to the ground without fear. I'm just now replacing my first plane. It's got hundreds and hundreds of flights on it, and has been repaired a countless number of times. So many times I fear it's a little heavier than it was new - and I may benefit from something a little lighter? Otherwise, it's still flyable. Point being, cost per flying hour, everything, is pennies....
Holler if you're interested, be happy to share my setup regarding motor, speed control, servos, etc. -Al
Last edited by ahicks; 08-08-2014 at 04:15 AM.
08-08-2014, 04:50 AM
#7
Thread Starter
Man I just checked that site. in the gas/nitro section of all the planes listed, only 2 are in stock. In fact on all the pages majority of the stuff is out of stock. Why bother listing them if they dont have them? Strange site.
08-08-2014, 05:31 AM
#9
Keep in mind I fly off grass, so those wheels are way too small and the gear stance looks a little skinny. That first one looks a little better, so will keep it in mind. I stopped at the LHS and all they had in the 91 size was a U-Can-Do. It didn't look like one I would enjoy. I did pick up a pair of 4 1/2" wheels so its got everything I need to fly the CARF now. The engine runs really good on that one.
08-08-2014, 06:22 AM
#10
Acdii, I am a huge Aeroworks fan. But that is not a great 3d plane. It's not even a good 3D plane IMHO.
Unless your grass is 6" tall you don't need big wheels on a profile. It is going to take off in 10' and land in just as small of an area. Just mow a spot short and use that area. It will make you a better pilot anyway.
Foamies are a good start to 3D as ahicks suggested. I did not mention them because that's not what you ask. If you are interested in going that way, look at www.DWFoamies.com Mike has nice stuff at good prices. He will also talk with you and give you recommendations on what to buy. I have a Juka combo that will 3D with the best of them. Make sure you get 3-4 batteries when you get it built. And don't worry about landing gear for it. It can hand launch straight up and will land anyplace. Be sure and glue a piece of zip tie to the point on the fuse that will skid on the ground front and rear.
One other thing on the foamies. I live in western Oklahoma so wind is a factor. I don't get to fly the Juka most days because of that. So if you live in a windy area a foamie is a great second plane. But you wont get a lot of stick time if it's your only 3D plane.
David
Unless your grass is 6" tall you don't need big wheels on a profile. It is going to take off in 10' and land in just as small of an area. Just mow a spot short and use that area. It will make you a better pilot anyway.
Foamies are a good start to 3D as ahicks suggested. I did not mention them because that's not what you ask. If you are interested in going that way, look at www.DWFoamies.com Mike has nice stuff at good prices. He will also talk with you and give you recommendations on what to buy. I have a Juka combo that will 3D with the best of them. Make sure you get 3-4 batteries when you get it built. And don't worry about landing gear for it. It can hand launch straight up and will land anyplace. Be sure and glue a piece of zip tie to the point on the fuse that will skid on the ground front and rear.
One other thing on the foamies. I live in western Oklahoma so wind is a factor. I don't get to fly the Juka most days because of that. So if you live in a windy area a foamie is a great second plane. But you wont get a lot of stick time if it's your only 3D plane.
David
Last edited by daveopam; 08-08-2014 at 06:26 AM.
08-08-2014, 08:02 AM
#11
Thread Starter
I have a couple foamies I no longer fly, mainly because I have to walk a distance to retrieve them once the battery gets low. It is rare to have a light wind day, last weekend was PERFECT for that kind of plane, so I brought out my Inversa 280, never got it in the air, moment I went full throttle the motor blew off the nose. There were pieces of foam everywhere. Size is also a factor, I lose sight of the small ones rather quickly, my smallest regular flier is an LT-40, so any plane I get will have to be at least as big, and that size seems to be the best for me, or bigger. The 4*120 wing is shortened by a bay on each end, so the wing is just a bit larger than the LT-40. I tend to fly high, giving myself plenty of room to recover, which is why I am looking for something in the 91 range.
When I flew my Chipmunk and P-51, they were easy to lose sight of,(orientation) and they are 65" wings.
What I was looking at last night, the TH lineup, there are the GP, Aeroworks and Pheonix planes, would any of those be a decent choice to step up with? I am a pretty good flier, when I was at the flyin, I probably had the best take offs and landings, mainly due to the very short and narrow field I fly on. I know what I did wrong to wreck my P-51, just something I have to remember NOT to do when its flying again, a quirk of the plane. When I did fly the inversa, I did pretty good with it, but nearly lost it a couple times as it got too far away and lost orientation. One of the other things I tend to do is keep far enough away to avoid flying into or over the flight line. Again has to do with where I fly, trees directly behind my left, barn and real airplane fuses on my right. Any of which can total a plane in an instant if I get too close, you know how trees tend to reach out and rip a plane out of the air!
When I flew my Chipmunk and P-51, they were easy to lose sight of,(orientation) and they are 65" wings.
What I was looking at last night, the TH lineup, there are the GP, Aeroworks and Pheonix planes, would any of those be a decent choice to step up with? I am a pretty good flier, when I was at the flyin, I probably had the best take offs and landings, mainly due to the very short and narrow field I fly on. I know what I did wrong to wreck my P-51, just something I have to remember NOT to do when its flying again, a quirk of the plane. When I did fly the inversa, I did pretty good with it, but nearly lost it a couple times as it got too far away and lost orientation. One of the other things I tend to do is keep far enough away to avoid flying into or over the flight line. Again has to do with where I fly, trees directly behind my left, barn and real airplane fuses on my right. Any of which can total a plane in an instant if I get too close, you know how trees tend to reach out and rip a plane out of the air!
08-08-2014, 10:59 AM
#12
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Keep in mind I fly off grass, so those wheels are way too small and the gear stance looks a little skinny.
Daveopam is exactly right, you don't need big tires on even longer grass. With +2:1 power-to-weight, the plane launches hard. I do vertical hand-launches with my 90-size nitro birds; an Extreme Flight Chinn Yak with YS 63, and an EF Edge 540 with OS 70. Sorry, but you're making way too many assumptions on things you don't know about.
Look into Swany's Mojo series. I know you want an ARF, but you can frame these up in a night or two. They're light, and some of the best 3D birds extant. Check into the Pro Bro site also.
08-08-2014, 11:28 AM
#13
Thread Starter
Well maybe so, I am just one of those who likes to pilot a plane as if it were real, Nice straight take offs, climb outs, etc, Not gun it and yank(though I have done that with the LT-40). When you gun it and yank, it looks like you dont know how to fly. I make some very nice take off and landings. nice and straight, raise the tail then slowly get the gear up and a nice gentle climbout and turn away. Then I get wild and toss it about the sky to see if a wing will snap off(it did once too). So when I see little wheels I see a plane doing a nose over on take off. the only plane I ever was able to harrier land was a T-34 with the droops on the wings, into a head wind. Was quite amazing to see too. Everything else I land fast, and little wheels mean it winds up on it back the first bump it hits. All my planes have 3" wheels or larger. I also dont hand launch, I have this funny vision of the plane looping over my hand and getting stuck in my butt(that and a shoulder injury prevents me from doing so).
08-08-2014, 01:02 PM
#14
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No need to 'gun it and yank it', either. There's plenty of elevator authority to keep the nose from pitching over. Again, the assumptions...,
Due to the high drag of the fairly thick wing on a 3D plane, 'wheelie' landings (on the mains) are tough to do. Most folks do a three-point or harrier in for a plop. After your pals see the acro you do, they'll know you can fly & land.
Due to the high drag of the fairly thick wing on a 3D plane, 'wheelie' landings (on the mains) are tough to do. Most folks do a three-point or harrier in for a plop. After your pals see the acro you do, they'll know you can fly & land.
08-08-2014, 05:14 PM
#16
Thread Starter
More like first 3D plane that isnt an Inversa. There are so many different planes out there, that its hard to choose one, So its more like a stepping into 3d more than a "starter" plane. I am looking for a plane to step me up from the 4*120 I fly quite well now to where I can fly the CARF 330L confidently. Its like flying the P-51 ARF to get the hang of the characteristics of the Mustang before flying my $1000+ 3 years in the making P-51. Would much rather crack up a $3-400 plane than a $5000 plane. Also the smaller planes will be easier to repair than the Composite plane. I have 3 .91 magnum 4 strokes sitting on a shelf, so a 91 size is what I am looking for.
So I guess what i am asking is what is a decent plane that does 3D yet doesnt become a handful on landing, or is overly sensitive to inputs, but can do 3D maneuvers easily enough to learn on. The closest I get to 3D now is with my LT-40, it almost hovers, at least for a few seconds before gravity takes hold and drops its nose. Last time out I actually flipped it on its spar, was really cool to see. I also do a lot of inverted flying with it, great flying airplane.
There are so many different planes out there, that its hard to choose one, So its more like a stepping into 3d more than a "starter" plane. I am looking for a plane to step me up from the 4*120 I fly quite well now to where I can fly the CARF 330L confidently. Its like flying the P-51 ARF to get the hang of the characteristics of the Mustang before flying my $1000+ 3 years in the making P-51. Would much rather crack up a $3-400 plane than a $5000 plane. Also the smaller planes will be easier to repair than the Composite plane. I have 3 .91 magnum 4 strokes sitting on a shelf, so a 91 size is what I am looking for. So I guess what i am asking is what is a decent plane that does 3D yet doesnt become a handful on landing, or is overly sensitive to inputs, but can do 3D maneuvers easily enough to learn on. The closest I get to 3D now is with my LT-40, it almost hovers, at least for a few seconds before gravity takes hold and drops its nose. Last time out I actually flipped it on its spar, was really cool to see. I also do a lot of inverted flying with it, great flying airplane.
08-08-2014, 08:00 PM
#17
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One of the best 3D planes I have flown is my OMP 47" profile Edge. It is a great 3D trainer. $170. I put an OS 50SX-H helicopter engine (APC 12x4 prop) in it and standard servos.
Good Luck
Good Luck
08-09-2014, 02:41 AM
#18
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Something like this is what you need. Be warned though. You will want to fly it all the time.
http://www.valleyviewrc.com/estore/v...k-pro-red.html
David
http://www.valleyviewrc.com/estore/v...k-pro-red.html
David
That's my vote also
08-09-2014, 03:51 AM
#19
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acdii-
About any decent sport plane can 3D to a certain extent. What you are asking about is nothing special. Once you find a plane with a good power to weight ratio, with wing area maybe on the high side for low wing loading, most of what you are talking about is controlled by careful setup! Control throws and exponential control how your plane handles control inputs (from mild to wild). CG placement plays a huge part in how the plane handles low speeds. Because of this, a full on 3D plane can be tamed down very easily, to the point it can handle initial basic flight training amazingly well. They're really very docile - until you start cranking up the control throws and moving the CG back.
The .91's weight and power are going to control the size of the plane you're looking for. You could do a lot worse than a Stick. Suggest you keep it under 7lbs and over 650 sq.in. of wing area. 6lbs and and more sq. in. even better!
Here's another option. As mentioned above, don't be put off by the fact this is a full on 3D plane. It can be civilized very easily. Same company has a full line of "Sticks" as well.
http://www.texasrcplanes.com/kav270w.html
Best of luck. -Al
About any decent sport plane can 3D to a certain extent. What you are asking about is nothing special. Once you find a plane with a good power to weight ratio, with wing area maybe on the high side for low wing loading, most of what you are talking about is controlled by careful setup! Control throws and exponential control how your plane handles control inputs (from mild to wild). CG placement plays a huge part in how the plane handles low speeds. Because of this, a full on 3D plane can be tamed down very easily, to the point it can handle initial basic flight training amazingly well. They're really very docile - until you start cranking up the control throws and moving the CG back.
The .91's weight and power are going to control the size of the plane you're looking for. You could do a lot worse than a Stick. Suggest you keep it under 7lbs and over 650 sq.in. of wing area. 6lbs and and more sq. in. even better!
Here's another option. As mentioned above, don't be put off by the fact this is a full on 3D plane. It can be civilized very easily. Same company has a full line of "Sticks" as well.
http://www.texasrcplanes.com/kav270w.html
Best of luck. -Al
Last edited by ahicks; 08-09-2014 at 03:53 AM.
08-09-2014, 06:08 AM
#20
After reading through all the latest responses, I am sticking with my original suggestion. You did not say so but I think you may not want a profile?? To each his own, but you are missing out on a great part of this hobby and learning 3D. The planes I suggested and the Katana linked by ahicks will out fly most of the $5,000 planes you eluded too. They can be tame or wild and can save a crash from 10' up. Try that with a Stick or a .60 size Extra.
Good luck on your selection,David
Good luck on your selection,David
08-09-2014, 07:15 AM
#21
Thread Starter
Only reason I dont jump on the foamie types, I dont care much for electrics. Can't hear when the ESC cutout happens over the glow engines, and nearly lost my other electrics due to this. I also don't wish to invest in more batteries at this time, my 3300 3S packs are getting near exhaustion as it is. I will need to invest in some 4K 4S packs for my Twin Otter soon so I can actually fly it for more than a few minutes. I would like to go with something that I already have power and servos for, which is why I listed the few above. All I need is the airframe, I have plenty of servos, RX and engines.
Ideally I would like a smaller version of the CARF 330L, so if there is a decent one that someone knows about, that would probably be what I will get. One of the club members has a profile 3D with a Saito 100 on it, but I can't find that plane anywhere. I dont have the specs on it either, but will ask next time I see him. Not against profiles, just haven't found one that works with what I have.
Ideally I would like a smaller version of the CARF 330L, so if there is a decent one that someone knows about, that would probably be what I will get. One of the club members has a profile 3D with a Saito 100 on it, but I can't find that plane anywhere. I dont have the specs on it either, but will ask next time I see him. Not against profiles, just haven't found one that works with what I have.
08-09-2014, 10:42 AM
#22
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Addiction XL from Precision Acrobatics. It is large 59" WS, if flies on 6S but you can get two 3S 2000mAh. Each is $20.
It flies like nothing else, very easy to hover and knife edge. My preffered 3D bird
It flies like nothing else, very easy to hover and knife edge. My preffered 3D bird
08-09-2014, 11:54 AM
#23
acdii, I hope you can find something to fit your needs. In the future on your electric planes. Always use a timer. Start out on the conservative side and sneak up on the limit 30 seconds at a time. When you find it come back 30 seconds. It is much better for battery life not to run them down and as you well know can save an airframe. My radio has a timer built in in but it is easy to Velcro a cheap Wal-Mart timer to the back of your TX if need be.
David
David
08-09-2014, 05:54 PM
#24
Thread Starter
I do use a timer, but it appears the TO sucks up more power than the T-34 did with the same power plants. The Apprentice I get 14 minutes off the 3S 3300 packs, but about 6 minutes is tops for the TO. My LT-40 flies 14 minutes on a tank, the 4*120 for 30 minutes on a tank, so a 6 minute flight is not very long. When done flying the packs are usually at 3.6v per cell, which is where I have my battery minder set, when a cell dips below 3.6v it starts to alarm, and what I find with the TO is that WOT right after takeoff will drop voltage on at least one cell below 3.6v on a full charged pack. Needless to say I put many more flights on my GP/Gas than I do on the electrics.