Kris^

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Just to let the world know about a collaborative effort that has finally come together in a VERY promising design. Tony Dupaquier and I came up with this little idea. . He told me that NO 3D plane was radical enough for him. . I told him "OH YEAH?!?!?!" He threw down the challenge. . I answered it. Here's the result.

This is called a FRENZY.

Design parameters and specs:

Span: 80.25"
Wing area: 2120 sq. in.
Length: 80.5"
Servos: 2/aileron, 2 on stabilator, single 1/4 scale on rudder/fin, throttle
Weight: 13.5-14.5 lbs
Wing Loading: 14-15 ounces/foot

Features: This design features split ailerons that are 30% of total wing chord, full-flying stabilator and rudder/fin. Stabilator is mounted on 4 3/8"x3/4" ball bearings and a 3/8" Carbon Fiber main shaft, and is powered by 2 JR 8411 servos. Full-flying fin/rudder is hinged across the entire back of the fuselage and is powered by a single HiTec 5735 1/4 scale digital servo. The split ailerons have proven to be too much load for a single 8411/aileron, so Futaba 9152 Mega-digitals are being installed instead to provide full aileron throw.

Power was originally an un-piped OS 1.60 swinging a 18-6W APC at 8800+ rpm, but this proved insufficient and a BME 44 with Menz-s 20-8, or hand-crafted 21-8 (Heavily modified Top Flite 24-8) was installed. Flight tests are ongoing with the new powerplant.

Flight characteristics so far are very promising, with extremely reactive tail requiring very little movement for Extreme 3D performance. Roll Rate is over 2 rolls/second with the 8411's in place, and is expected to go to 3+ rolls/second with the stronger Futaba digitals. Even being nose heavy, the plane will do hovering waterfalls in BOTH directions, fly directly into a hovering flat spin, do 5' square loops, yet is extremely docile and predictable on low rates and lands at about 5-6 mph, or vertically with flaperons down. Not visible in these pictures are the bolt-on lower fuselage "fins" that are 3" tall and 24" long, that mount under the forward area of the fuselage, centering their length on the Landing Gear. The "fins" increase forward fuselage side area for better KE performance, as well as increasing under fuselage low-pressure area for better cooling of the engien and tunnel-mounted exhaust pipe. NO flutter has been experienced with the tail, and none is expected to occur due to the "balanced" nature of the surfaces pivots and overall shape

Thanks to a few inputs from Ynot, and a bit of "thinking outside the box" on my own part, this plane finally came to be. Now, an improved "version" designed toward a "Kit" from one of several interested manufacturers, is planned to be in the works soon after Joe Nall this year. As well, a smaller version, at about 72-75" of span, and 1500-1600" of area, designed around 1.20-1.60 sized glo engines, will be finished soon. Projected weight of the smaller plane is in the 10.5-11 lbs range.

Just thought the guys of the Pro-Bro and 3D groups would like to see this.

Have a good one!!

YNOT

Pushing the limit? More like NO LIMITS!!

I heard a story once, that started with "So.........we were sitting in the bar, having some juice..........and next thing I know is, we are in Greenland looking for P-38's"

That is what Kris and I were doing a few months back. We are having some juice and I'm describing ideas for a 3D plane and Kris starts drawing it on a napkin. Many napkins later, a few dozen phone calls, a few hundred emails and Kris got it done.

The concept was simple, ignore all previous concepts and the Frenzy was created.

More info to come.

RTK

My Feedback: (1)

It is good to think outside the box!

Johnnylightning

Looks pretty kool guys, is that a full flying rudder?

Johnnylightning

Sorry you've already answered my question

Doug Cronkhite

My Feedback: (34)

Just doing some off the top of my head calculations.

8.2" aileron chord.
16" aileron span
Roughly 125" area per 1/2 aileron.

Assuming your pushrod geometry is equal (1.5" servo arm, 1.5" control horn), at 50mph a servo will need to deliver 244oz" of torque to drive the surface to 60 degrees. So you COULD use an 8611 on 6v and drop it into the same servo mounts with very slight modification. Of course.. the instant you deflect those surfaces you'll slow down to well below 50 mph due to drag, thereby reducing the required servo power.

If you change your servo geometry slightly.. you can get more effective power to the surface.
Reducing your servo arm to 1.25", your control horn to 1.4" and increasing the servo travel to 75 degrees each way takes your max servo loading down to 160oz" at 46 degrees deflection with the max of 60 degrees requiring only 110oz", well within the limits of an 8411 on 6v.

Regardless.. if you kit this.. I'm interested in building the smaller one for electric.

Shahid

All 3D models take the laws of physics and aerodynamics, chew them up, crap them out, then urinate on them, bake them for 30 mins, fry them using 100% nitro fuel and then leave them to be eaten by
dogs.

This models does so some nifty stuff tho

But whenever I look at aeronautics and stuff, they always seem to be talking about docile aircraft and such but hey, I say they need to be re-written 3D style!

PlagueWielder

Can you please tell me how to calculate the amount of torque needed with the area of the surface, servo arm,...?

Thanks

Doug Cronkhite

My Feedback: (34)

I use a very nice calc spreadsheet written in excel. You can find it here.

http://members.cox.net/evdesign/page...ge_design.html

Kris^

My Feedback: (1)

The true dimensions for the aileron panels are 18" x 8" for the inners, and 19" x 7.5" for the outers (average chord).

I'm using 1.25" servo arms and ball links, and originally had about 60 degrees throw each way, but the ailerons would not deflect more than about 25-30 degrees even at lower speeds with the horns set to 1" length (from hingeline pivot), so I opened up the aileron horns as far as possible (gotta love Rocket City horns) to 1.5" of length. I still get about 40 degrees of throw, which is "adequate" but at higher speeds you can tell the servos are still strugging. Nothing personal against the 8611's, but the 8411's on this plane have been languishing on the shelf for about 2 years now, which is why I used them (free is a good starting point!! ). Since they have proven to be unable to handle the loads, and since Ynot uses Futaba gear, I figured I'd let him supply HIS brand of servos for the plane. Their torque and speed are close to the 8611's, and with all that wing area I'm not really worried about another ounce/servo of weight. Besides, I've never used Futaba servos before . . always willing to try something new, though

I guess if I sealed the hingeline it might help a bit too.

So many things to get done, . . . so little time.

3D Master

Man that is one wicked/awesome looking airplane!! Can't wait to fly it if Ynot lets me!! HEHE
Kyle

lagCisco

how about putting some wingerons or pitcherons on the airplane and also some side panels that can extend out and act as huge airbrakes or simply give you more sideforce, imagine knife edge without being high alpha

Kris^

My Feedback: (1)

Already done, Cisco, I'll have more pics soon

3DFanatic

My Feedback: (5)

Servo torque calculator:

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/eflight/calcs_servo.htm

Kris^

My Feedback: (1)

OKAYY Y Y Y Y Y . . .

Took the little beastie flying today, after swapping int he BME44. exhaust system, and ingitiion battery, associated wiring and switches, reinforcing the nose of the fuselage, chaning the tank position and making it for GAS, and basically losing my mind re-doing it. Weight is now 15.5 lbs (NOT what I wanted. . but what the heck . . )

Have you ever flown a Hype 3D? ? ? ?

This flies better. PERIOD.

Ever fly a U-Can-Do???

(sigh). . . .

Power-weight is now much better. The plane will almost self-TorqueRoll if the wind doesn't take the tail. At the same time, it flies very steady, not twitchy, as if it's still a bit nose heavy, and this is evidenced by doing elevators . .if you come off the power the nose drops out, indicating it's still nose heavy enough to be very stable. Next addition will be the stronger Futaba servos, and then we'll see how a faster roll rate helps the plane.

Enjoy the pictures.

Kris^

My Feedback: (1)

Note in the pictures that I've added some lower-fuselage "skirts" to give it more side area. The plane easily does a KE loop now, and KE flight is at about 15-20 degrees max angle of attack. The rudder is VERY powerful, and you can do end-over-end KE reversals just by kicking the tail over the fuselage and reversing direction. I have not tried any rudder flips (pinwheels) yet, but I'm sure that once the engine gets broken in a bit, and the weight gets shifted back a little more that the plane will do them from a hover. These pictures show the amount of control throw possible, and it's been turned down a bit. Another 10-15 degrees of throw in each directionis possible by adjusting the control horns.

Kris^

My Feedback: (1)

A couple of closeups of the little BME44. Note the block of foam on the carburetor in the second picture. This is to give a "shield" to the pressure diaphragm on the carburetor, and prevent direct air-flow from striking the forward-facing diaphragm cover plate. There is no "muffler" per se, but a 15" long piece of Stainless Steel tubing makes up the exhaust "pipe" and exits behind the LG after splitting into a "Y" with down-turned exits. Sound from the exhaust is comparable to your standard "Pitts" type setup.

Ultimate

not the most pretty of models

but oloks like fun ![:@]

Kris^

My Feedback: (1)

When I get a cowl in place, to help blend in that nose area, it will look a lot nicer, I think.

But, I was looking the plane over, this morning, comparing it to other things on the market. . I came up with the phrase. .. "Functionality has it's own kind of beauty" This plane is built to be capable of anything the pilot can desire to do. As far as I am concerned, the fuselage and Tail group are right on the money. If anything, the plane has too much wing, and the tip chord needs to be reduced about 25%, without sacrificing stability and the other characteristics of the plane. I'm gonna work on that and develop a new wing for it. .

It's NOT a Carden 'Cuda. . though at $500 for a bare KIT you gotta wonder how many of those Carden is gonna sell. I'm SURE it will outperform the 'Cuda in every aspect of 3D style flying, as well as matching it in more mundane flying requirements (can we say "glorified trainer" when on low rates???)

This is a new breed of plane, IMHO . over 80", gas-powered, and aimed directly at the 3D Flyer. That sort of design is going to need an entirely new "look", capability, and thinking process when it comes to designing it. I guess now we can see just how large that envelop really is.

ben flyn

Take those dumb looking points off the rudder!

Kris^

My Feedback: (1)

You obviously have no idea how this design works, Ben.

Build your own design, and make it work, then you can talk about other peoples efforts.

JBrannon

My Feedback: (3)

Kris.

I read almost everything you post, you have a great deal of wisdom when it comes to RC and Gas engines, however it probably would have been better to just ignore the previous post than to respond as you did. Next this great thread could turn into a flame war.

Joe

Kris^

My Feedback: (1)

Agreed, Jbrannon. .

There. . its fixed

A lot of time RCU reminds me of the French Revolutiion.

YNOT

Rudder is my fault.

Mike Bogh

My Feedback: (14)

Personally I applaud Kris and Tony's efforts to come up with a radical new design, and then make it fly...perfect for 3D.
I have to admit that although I don't care for how it looks, so far, I'm sure as sunshine it will do everything as claimed, if Tony has anything to do with it. (I met Tony in Vegas last OCT, saw him fly)

Kudos to you both.
I'm also sure as the design is further refined it will become a terrific looking plane. One chore will be to come up with a covering design that says FRENZY at a glance, like other successful plane designs.
Perhaps a design contest to come up with an original scheme..winner to get one of the first production runs.
Gator, Paul, Chuck et.al, I'm sure will come up with something interesting...to be sure..