poorbs

My Feedback: (3)

Most of you guys probably already know this, but I discovered something recently, and will share it with those who may not. If the airplane is upright, top rudder is ALWAYS applied by moving the sticks in opposite directions, i.e. pull rudder and aileron sticks apart or push them together. If the airplane is inverted, top rudder is ALWAYS applied by moving the sticks in the same direction, i.e. both rudder and aileron sticks to the left or both to the right. This was discovered after many wrong rudder deployments at the end of the Intermediate pattern.

Now, can someone give me a good way to remember correct rudder inputs for in and out corrections when the airplane is flying back and forth and rolling to inverted and back again?

Thanks

Fly4Fun2

My Feedback: (25)

When the plane is inverted, push towards to part of the airplane that is out further than you want. In other words, if the plane is inverted and flying from right to left. If the nose is angled in towards you slightly (plane is coming in towards the front of the box), push left rudder. If the tail is angled in towards you slightly (plane is going towards to back of the box slightly), push right rudder.

Hope this helps.
Keith

Warbird_Lover

I thought you IMAC/Pattern guys always pictured yourself in the cockpit? I also thought that warbird guys were the only ones to use these little "tricks" to work the rudder in a semi correct manner. I actually have a switch on my P51HJ to turn the rudder off after I take-off. Apparently its a pretty useless control on a warbird. Anyway I guess you learn something new every day.

Hubb

My Feedback: (1)

I applaud the efforts of an imac or pattern flier trying to learn and improve his flying skills, unlike someone who switches thier rudder off!

theres no tricks to it, only practice

Hubb

Geistware

My Feedback: (16)

I guess your way is better than mine. I always do it by instinct when flying upright and then just reverse what I think is natural when inverted.!

Chris 540

My Feedback: (3)

You actually turn your rudder off???????? LOL

WreckRman2

My Feedback: (5)

Umm, you wouldn't last 5 minutes in a WW2 dogfight without your rudder... I know this is a model but it's modeled after the real deal and warbirds used the rudder more than any other aircraft type, especially in dogfights.

KeithB

My Feedback: (1)

This may sound dumb, but I'm not familiar with the term "Top Rudder". Can someone please explain what this refers to.

Thanks,
Keith

poorbs

My Feedback: (3)

Maybe the warbirds mentioned aren't WWII vintage, but modern jets, which can fire radar guided air to air missiles while the target is still miles away. This kind of dogfighting wouldn't require a rudder.

All kidding aside, it's the subtle use of the rudder which allows good flyers to move up to the next level of proficiency, and pattern flyers to advance to higher levels of competition.

I heard once that there is no such thing as left rudder - only right rudder and wrong rudder.

krayzc-RCU

My Feedback: (31)

for your plane to stay afloat the rudder will always need to be pointing toward the top of the plane. I first learned rudder from pushing toward the back of the plane if i could see the canopy or toward the front of the plane if i could see the bottom of the plane. Now a days my fingers do their onw thing. I think its like pushing under the low wing to level a plane coming towards you. After a while it just happens and you don't even think about it. But i always come up with a way to push toward something in my efffort to learn something. i push toward the low wing in the T-roll (with rudder) when a plane has it back side to me, as this is were most struggle in learning to T-roll. ........

poorbs

My Feedback: (3)

Top rudder refers to the rudder input necessary to keep the nose of the airplane from dropping while it's on it's side, while either rolling to inverted or holding knife edge flight. For instance, if I'm rolling to the right to inverted flight, I'll want to gradually deploy left rudder on the way around to keep the nose from dropping. As the plane rotates and approaches inverted, the rudder input is neutralized and some down elevator is deployed to keep the nose from dropping while inverted. The same scenario is repeated as the airplane is rolled back to upright level flight.

TOYMAKER

My Feedback: (6)

I use the "push the tail in the direction you want it to go" when inverted. Same when the plane is going vertical and with the bottom to you.

When I practice I am always using rudder. The rudder is the most powerful control surface I have on my Cap an pattern pane. I would probably crash or plane run out of sky if I turned it OFF!!! I sure hope you where just kidding Warbird Lover.... or do you rebuild(re-kit) a lot? heh! heh!

Warbird_Lover

All the warbird guys I've ever met have turned their rudder off as soon as they get in the air, sometimes even after they get into takeoff position on the runway. If you like to turn it off when you get in position to takeoff be sure to angle the plane to the right about 20 degrees so you can offset the left turning tendances. I know this may sound crazy but believe me it works. When you don't buy arfs and spend all your time building a warbird it's tough to learn how to use a "rudder". Don't knock it till you try it.

Ted Farmin

As a full size and RC instructor no rudder sounds dangerous to me.

KeithB

My Feedback: (1)

Thanks for explaining "Top Rudder". I use rudder quite a lot but just had never heard that term.

Also, thanks for the ticks to keep straight which rudder control to use when inverted and in a knife edge. I'm pretty good at keeping up with the right direction if I'm doing set maneuvers, but still get confused sometimes when trying to add rudder correction at peculiar positions when not initially planned .

Keith

gaviti

Am I missing something here warbird lover? Are you really suggesting someone take off a good size taildragging warbird with no rudder (hence no steering)? I'd recommend an hour or so of taxi training with a trainer then at least you can steer your plane on takeoff.

I find it hard to believe that these "rudderless" warbird pilots can successfully make a landing approach with a warbird but don't have the skill to takeoff with rudder control.

Are we being fooled here guys? Is this a little prank or joke?

Johng

My Feedback: (4)

I'm having a hard time believing this is widespread, but I have seen a good number of Warbird wipeouts where I was just thinking "Rudder!" all along as I was watching. I've been a flightline coordinator for the Deland Fest of Giants for years. Year before last I saw a guy with a big P-51, maybe 1/3 scale. Biggest, nicest 'stang I've seen.

Deland is famous for having a crosswind 'in your face'. That is, into the filghtline. I distinctly remember seeing the mustang float past the flight boxes on approach, getting pushed closer and closer in. Not a crosswind gale, but just a couple mph of "push" With a plane that big the rudder is obvious, and I'm staring at it - no movement. It settled in ON TOP of the 3 foot snow fence, that guards the pits from the runway, headed for the folks set up at that end. Scared some folks for sure, not to mention the foolishness of letting something like that happen to such a nice machine.

Ya gotta be able to use the rudder when you have something big, expensive, & dangerous, even if it means buying an ARF to beat around while you are working on that warbird. Sheesh, break out the old trainer 40 and experiment with rudder if you need to.

I don't tend to notice how good the rivet detail is when I'm jumping out of the way.

Chris 540

My Feedback: (3)

I don't know what I'd do with out rudder control on my planes!! It's such a crucial surface when you want your flying to look good....

Why would you turn it off anyways?? You could at least keep it on for when you need it (but obviously you wouldn't know how to use it).

ChuckAuger

My Feedback: (12)

I tend to think he is poking fun at the warbird guys (a la Johnny Rebel)...I might be wrong...but

I don't think pointing the nose 20 deg right would do the trick, either..you have to get on the rudder IMO to get one off, but he did say after take off, and...

How do you turn the rudder off?? None of my radios have the "ch4 disconnect switch" or maybe have rudder DR set to 0%??

But I guess the part I don't understand is...he says he turns it off and doesn't use it..well, wouldn't just not moving the rudder stick accomplish the same thing as turning it off?? I've seen a lot of fliers use that method and didn't need to worry about turning anything off.....

So I'm a bit sceptical, but hey! Stranger things have happened!

JoanC

If you turn off the rudder I am sure you will never learn how to use it. Leave it on and give it a try. With a little of practice you will improve not only your take offs but also you will have more centered landings. You may not need the rudder for the rest of the flight, but I am sure that when you get used to it, it will be completely necessary for you.

T-28Man

My Feedback: (5)

Boy it's shocking to learn that all that money is spent on large expensive rudder servos , when they arn't needed. I bet Warbird_Lover does some real nice 4 and 8 point rolls without one. I guess he hasn't much (twin time) yet. HUH?

TOYMAKER

My Feedback: (6)

Now that we got that out of the way...

What other tricks do you all use to stay orientated(???spell check please) on the RUDDER?

JohnW

My Feedback: (6)

When learning to hover, I'd have problems with rudder when the bottom of the fuse was toward me. I used a mental trick to help learn the proper rudder input when the fuse bottom faced me. I'd think about pushing up the low wing with the rudder stick when the bottom faced me. This is very similar to the mental suggestion Fly4Fun2 had. After a while you stop thinking about it and it just happens.

As for rudders and warbirds, I'd say it is OK to turn the rudder off. I really like to watch crasher tapes.

Johng

My Feedback: (4)

I believe ChuckAugers onto something here. Mr. Warbird lover looks like he's into yanking people's chains by the few other posts he's done. Seemed to be yanking the 3-d'ers chains though. Have we been yanked?

TOYMAKER

My Feedback: (6)

YANKED maybe... but spanked.... I think not!

What else is a warbird flyer to do when he can only fly, crash and rebuild his rudder. Gotta have sumtin tah do in between.

OK enough of the rudder bashing.

Hey MonkeyBoy:

Do you mix a lot with your rudder? I have a 25% Cap 232 that has a tendency to have adverse roll and a slight pitch to the belly on harder knife edge rudder. I have mixed in a little elevator but not the aileron yet. Rudder has plenty of authority and is capable/powerful enough to do knife edge looping. If I mix enough say to control pitch and roll will I be affecting other areas of the flight envelope or do these tendencies occur at all attitudes of flying?