DKjens

My Feedback: (50)

It's been said already, but I'll chime in - just burn fuel. If you have to think about reversing some controls at certain times, you will just get confused. Just keep TR-ing and hovering, after enough time, the reversing of the rudder just comes natural. I started with heli and I think that taught me one good think - to observe the model and see what it did. This allows me to catch a wrong input very fast and reverse it, and now when belly in, moving the rudder just comes natural or automatic.
As John pointed out, when a wingtip points to you it is hard to judge what and when to use the rudder, but for some reason, after so much pratice it just comes natural.
DKjens

JohnVH

My Feedback: (38)

Best advice I can give, is to get good at recovering with no altitude loss.. I can tork it at 1', because Im pretty dang sure I wont touch the ground if I screw up.. It will happen someday, but so far, Ive been very fortunate..

So, once you get no altitude loss on a hover screw up, you can go lower.

Nogyro

My Feedback: (10)

Great pic JohnVH! It gives me something to strive towards. Keep posting your vids also, I really enjoy watching them. You have a very smooth style which is what I perfer. Not the jerky kind.

JohnVH

My Feedback: (38)

Thank you!!

mithrandir

My Feedback: (2)

SIMULATOR!!!

seanychen

My Feedback: (4)

Some people use the tail method, but I find that looking at the nose is easier for me. While belly faces me during hover, I simply move my rudder stick to where the the nose veers.

Don't get me wrong. I look at the entire plane. I just feed my input on what the nose is doing.

MikeEast

My Feedback: (3)

Seeing that Jason Schulman is watching the nose all the time tells me I need to change to the nose and forget about the tail when belly in. Makes sense to push towards the way the nose is falling off. Even when flying pattern Im going to give it a go and see if it tidies up my uplines with the belly facing.

I have been practicing hover/tr 3-5 days a week at least 2 3D flights each of those days for about a YEAR now and I am just starting to feel like I really torque roll the plane under complete control. But I do not have a simulator, its all glow fuel and batteries.
Also at this point I cannot maintain a constant elevation or position for very long. If Im not drifting with the wind Im ascending or descending just a little. Seems like even when Im right on it, 1 click of throttle and Im climbing 1 click the other way and Im drifting downward..
In short, its not easy just keep practicing.

Three questions/comments to add to this post.

Would a throttle curve be useful, do you guys like JAS that can T/R a foamie through a doorway or in a small room use a curve?

Also,
Something that has not been discussed is the POWER factor. Man, power is SO important in good torque rolling and hovering. I had a 91 in my UCD and when it would beging to fall all I would gun it and it wouldnt fall out completely but it would sort of start to slide off hard to the left looking like a Knife Edge Harrier and losing a little altitude all the time. You will never be safe Down on the Deck with that sortof power, I dont care how good you are. Now with my electric foamie and when I graduated to a Saito 1.20 on my UCD things chaned bigtime. With a 2:1+ power to weight ratio the plane responds TOTALLY differently. When the plane starts to fall off a little I can get enough power in a burst to sharply bring the nose back upright and then just as suddenly back off and retain the t/r at the same altitude(relatively), basically the power allows me to quickly recover and go back to little corrections to keep it perfectly vertical.
Plus once you get power you gain CONFIDENCE. Power allows you to recover from mistakes, sometimes BAD mistakes. If you are lacking in power you can make the right control inputs and still end up in the dirt because you didnt have the thrust to gain altitude. With power and decent skills with the sticks if you goof up you just gun it and point the nose up from any attitude , and live to fly another day.

Last thing, the better I get at it the more I see that virtually perfect control inputs are the key. If you are slow to correct or correct too much its virtually impossible to recover back to a hover/tr without looking like you are starting over from an uh oh. That just takes many many gallons of fuel.

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

i've also had a big power difference, my Cougar pulls out ok but it's not foamy instant, when it was on one bit my Pheonix ( see www.philsrcworld.fsnet.co.uk ) was more like it, it never screwed out on full elevator so recovery was stress free, with huge surfaces and lightweight it was easy and i almost started TRing on the deck, now i'm back to square one with the Cougar.

joeb102072

My Feedback: (9)

Obviously practice is key and unfortunatly the last step is going out to the field and doing it for real. No matter how many hours you have logged in to the sim, there is going to be some adjusting at the field. Besides the difference in realism to a sim the biggest factor is no one is flying those exact planes set up exactly as the sim. Every little differnce in your plane to the sim is going to be amplified exponetially at the field. I do believe though that the Sim for larning to hover and do 3D is the only way to go to get a jump start on things. It very well may cut your learning curv in half. The abiltiy to hover has a harsh reality to it, wheather you are learning or a pro you have to be low to the ground no more than a mistake high. If you are any higher then you cannot acuratly see when the plane falls off in time to correct it before you lose it. On the sim who cares get low see what happens and press the space bar to get a brand new plane. So now you understand better what the p[lane could do when it is low and you have a better understanding how to get out of it before it is too later. And I agree POWER IS KEY i have a ys .63 in my morris 5 lb plane it will hover at 1/3 throttle and I have literally been 5 ft above the deck gotten in trouble and was able to pull it out. It definatly boosts your confidence when you have that kind of power.

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

went out last night and tried the nose/stick stuff, worked well until i lost which way the plane was pointing, coz i watched the nose only and it was getting further away
when Cougars are backlit by setting sun and it's getting dark you get lost quick only my tips help as they are orange and green, but watching the nose you can't see those

also when you put in too much rudder the whole thing really kicks over.
a slight play with expo ( less of it ) and i should get there, but at least for the first time iwas getting 4-5 rotations before i lost it. all be it 1 mistake high and drifting down wind... breeze.

yippie

rc_boy_12

My Feedback: (2)

i TR'd on the sim fora long time, and after a while, u automaticly knwo which way to go, and whne i get confusedm i use lil inputs, andd if its wrong way, i use opposite rudder, and correct, also, power, as mentioned beofre, hellps 100 %.

joeb102072

My Feedback: (9)

Wanna bring your TR trainning up a few notches. Add 15 mph wind into the Sim (not unheard of anywhere you fly) and increase the sims realism speed to 120% not too much but just enough. Then when you are done TR'ing the big boys and getting their new aspect ratio down to where those new changes dont effect you much. If you are using AFP pick up the OMP Profile yak the little 40 size one and hover that for a bit. Talk about testing your skills. "Its all about realism baby."

sensei

The only real thing you are trying to get from practicing on the sim is to sharpen your involuntary motor skills. Ikerus is just to easy, it's fun, really fun but mostly a waste of time. Get G2 and practice with the Extra they offer in add-ons 3, it is so ill flying and difficult to do 3D with that by the time you get good with it, just about everything at the field is a no brainer. I mean practice until you are not thinking about your imputs at all, they just happen.

Bob

Acrobat

This is a picture of my standard 2meter 140 rx powered pattern plane. Note I haven't any 3d sized controls especially on aileron so I cant stop for a hover break. The main thing I run on is little control. Believe it or not a plane set up well can torque roll quite well for many rotations without human intervention. I find primarily I use the elevator to fix everything. This is possible for the plane is rotating quite fast, 3 sec a roll. So if plane is leaning in a direction wait till plane rolls in a direction so it can be fixed with up or down elevator. BUT rudder is important use it as a backup. Mainly use rudder in the cycle when you are looking at top of plane when starting off. You brain will slowly program it self to follow plane around the full cycle so you always know which way to push. Don't rely on mind system tricks, you wont think of them in a bad situation. Your first action will be a natural reaction. It took me 2 months of solid practice to learn to be automatic. People say my controls are always moving in small sharp increments when torque rolling. The most crucial thing is to set up your plane right. Hang plane from prop static, if it leans forward it needs up thrust. This is a common problem I always see people fighting with up elevator, in a big way, in torque rolls when they should be concentrating on smaller defined movements with the plane in balance.

Trust me torque rolling is easy. Once you have gone past the threshold of being able to do it, your heros will become equals and sadly what they do won't impress you anymore.

joeb102072

My Feedback: (9)

Sorry but I completly disagree with your statment on the sims. AFP is the best 3D trainner I have seen or used yet I sold G2 just to get AFP. And I was so good at G2 that I could hover the stock aircraft from the program except for modifing the throws to 3D I was TR'ng and hovering the Stock edge 540 quite well. Down to the ground Trng and rocket up into the sky no issues at all. Then I heard some reviews saw some video, and saw Chip hyde at the WRAM show flying AFP and I was hooked. Since I have used g2 I accredit nothing but knowing a planes attitude in a hover to G2. Other than that its flight characteristics in 3d or high alpha manuvers is so unrealistic it borders on a video game. And those downloadable planes for G2 are so out of the realm of reality its ridiculous. I mean just look at the way they set them up just to get even close to what they claim a real 3D plane should do. The flight physics in g2 dont have the capability to take into affect the prop wash if you doubt me try it hover and start to TR then deflect the alerions it doesnt matter the plane wont stop the TR unless there is actual movment the plane is advancing a bit or decending. I used g2 and went to the field with sort of a big head and I was unpleasantly suprised as to what I had thought I learned. Then I used AFP for about 3 months and mind you I had to learn to hover all over again. Everything I thought I new was wrong on G2. and later at the field I was amazed. No it wasnt exacly as the sim because I wanst flying the exact models set up the exact way. But it was so close that on my 3rd weekend I dropped the tail on the runway with no issues at all. Hovering is all about the rudder and elvator. Knowing when to correct before its to late, knowing your plane, and reading your plane. When Roland Matt can put his name on his Extra 330S on AFP and say that in theroy if you had my plane at the field that its just like his version on AFP then Thats good enough for me. I dont see any TOC guys endorsing G2 that way. Mind you I am only addressing the 3D aspect of the sims. Other characteristics are so close if I wernt interested In 3D then price would be my only determing factor. Oh and look, AFP wins again. IMO

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

i noticed when the Cougar is dead upright ( no wind helps ) it'll TR quite easy with hardly any inputs form me, then i do something and it'll fall out, it's in the wind i need to practice really, watching the designer the other night TRing mine around within seconds of me letting it go and moaning about the elevator being soft ( lots of expo for this weekends limbo comp )

sickening

sensei

Well, at least we agree to disagree, he,he

Bob

joeb102072

My Feedback: (9)

Yes you are correct about that. [8D]

Luke 3D returns

I also agree that AFP is a big help when learning 3D. It is however no substitute to going to the field. You learn better from mistakes and near crashes you make in the real world because you know theres no reset button

joeb102072

My Feedback: (9)

Absolutly but with the sim you have the courage to at least attempt a manuver that you would be somewhat aprehensive about at the field. And with AFP as opposed to G2 it will respond more like a real plane will making your transition to the real field flow better. But actually doing it at the field is the best way to learn I agree. Harrier rolls are much eaiser on the sim simply because you are safe from spending money if you mess up. Starting a harrier roll at the field is nerve racking enough forget about holding it. That is to a pilot who doesnt have unlimited resources. I suppose if I were independently wealthy I wouldnt care how many I pushed into the ground. But I am not. Man, I wish I was born wealthy instead of so damn handsome. HE HE [8D]

redbirdy

I second the simulator advise. It doesn't have to cost you a plane either. Start high. I know it's harder high but when you can hold it there, you will be pretty good with it down low. I don't like a lot of expo on my controls when hovering or torque rolling. I think low to now expo will be a big help to you as well. I recently started setting my rate switches up with equal throw (both maxed out) but have the low rate position with some expo.

Acrobat

Anyone tried learning with let-gos at base height. that was 1 of the processes i used as well to learn.

Cactus.

My Feedback: (1)

?? holding it in your hand and letting go in the hover? the plane that is..

George E.

My Feedback: (16)

Sometimes I use expo on the throttle.

Sometimes I surge the throttle a few clicks too high then a few clicks too low constantly. If I pause the surge on the high click the plane climbs, if I pause on the low click it descends. This works well when you are backing a hover down to the gound. Not sure I explained it too well [sm=bananahead.gif]