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  1. #276

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Hey sure thing man, send me your email and i'll send you the files. I hope it works. also, let me know how helpful they were and if there's anymore that i'm missing


    izzy

  2. #277

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    has anyone ever heard of a knife edge slide? I saw it in a magazine a while back. basically you come in level at 1/2 throttle and simultaneously hit elevator aileron and rudder, then quickly let off of elev and ail and just hold rudder till you slide in a sideways knife edge, straight up. ( terrible definition but maybe if someone knows a better way to describe they could tell us.)It's really cool when you get it right but it's kinda difficult. I've been practicing it for 6 months now and still only get it every once in a while.
    IF YOU ONLY HAVE TO BEND OVER ONCE TO PICK UP YOUR PLANE, IT WAS A GOOD LANDING

  3. #278
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    We call it a suicide slide. All you do is assume a high alpha knife edge position up high and upwind. Then just let off the throttle a click at a time until the plane starts to sink. Just let it sink right in and then when it begins to approach the ground slowly ease in the throttle and make a level pass.

    Its probably a ood idea to have your coupling issues resolved before getting too low with this maneuver. When you are flyin slow in a high alpha KE its not uncommon to have a lot of rudder input as well as elevator for pitch correction and aileron for roll correction. These are classic inputs for a snap roll!! If you get into the throttle too quickly or over correct just a little at the wrong time your high alpha knife edge can turn into a KE snap. The key is to get the planes incidence and cg set correctly so that MINIMUM rudder/elevator mix is required and then setup the mix. Then program you roll coupling mix (rudder/aileron). Then you wont have to worry so much about trying to balance the plane as it sinks and can focus on heading and altitude control!
    Mike East
    AMA 793948

    Back to square one .

  4. #279

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    I'm not sure if we're talking about the same manuever. the one I saw was kinda like a wall, but pop up intp a knife edge from level flight. then it slides sideways from momentum in a hover attitude. I wish I could do it better, and I would submit a video. I could be wrong and it's a variation of a suicide slide I'm thinkin of.
    IF YOU ONLY HAVE TO BEND OVER ONCE TO PICK UP YOUR PLANE, IT WAS A GOOD LANDING

  5. #280

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    RE: New Video: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Yea
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  6. #281

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    RE: New Video: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    What's the difference between the blender and the inverted flat spin?

  7. #282
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    RE: New Video: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    i believe a blender is a nose down more violent spin, kinda like snap rolling as you spin, where as a inverted spin has the ailerons neutralized and can be more graceful looking, and more flat, i could be wrong but thats my impression

  8. #283

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    RE: New Video: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    the blender actually ends in an inverted flat spin. for a blender, point the plane down and start with left aileron (just for example's sake). so the plane is pointed down, rolling left, whenever you want to snap into a blender--and I say snap because that's what the fingers do, sort of snap around)--you start by giving a bit of right rudder so that the plane is now barrel rolling toward the ground, then finish up by snapping full right rudder (while adding power) and going from full left aileron to down elevator (and a bit of left aileron) in a semi-circle. in other words, you roll your thumb from full left aileron to almost full down elevator. I say almost because you will need some left aileron to control the flat spin. so what the plane will do a roll, then barrel roll, then snap into an inverted flat spin, whose circumference is up to you. Its not as hard as i might have made it sound . . .

  9. #284

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    thanks i think i got it now [8D]!

  10. #285
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    ive been doing that for a long time and never thought it was a blender, but i snap into my flat spins like that cause it kinda helps get in nicely, even if a plane doenst want to do spins very well, if you snap them in i can usually get a nice one out of it, guess i have been doing blenders ad not knowing it[X(]

  11. #286
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    ORIGINAL: pliebo

    I'm not sure if we're talking about the same manuever. the one I saw was kinda like a wall, but pop up intp a knife edge from level flight. then it slides sideways from momentum in a hover attitude. I wish I could do it better, and I would submit a video. I could be wrong and it's a variation of a suicide slide I'm thinkin of.
    hi mate here is my plane doing what you are talking about i think.the pic is right in the midel of level flight into a knife edge wall.its scarey & i only do it at flyins .
    this is at a speed of around 40mph into a hover from a knife edge wall.
    cheers glen
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    TO MUCH FUN CLUB

  12. #287
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


    I would suggest you work on several 3D maneuvers... spend part of each flight spending a little time on each..
    First.. practice regular upright and inverted harriers... try not to get better at one then the other... give equal attention to upright AND inverted... you will likely discover that inverted is easier for the plane to do.. fairly typical... The next maneuver would be rollers... straight line and circles... practice both directions and left and right rolls... once you are comfortable doing harriers.... use that to transition to a hover and then a torque roll....
    Entering a TR/Hover from a harrier is better then entering from a wall... this is because YOU have time to gradually transition from flying to hovering.... initially, TR'ing will be awkward... but... keep just a little bit of forward movement in a very steep Harrier, and it will resist torking around....once you are hand with hovering, transition to a TR. this can be done gradually if when you pull out vertically from a hover, you intentionally roll left as you climb out... over time, roll slower and pul out slower until you are crawling out of the hover and the plane rolls of its own accord. After all this... you are ready to bring it all together for rolling harriers....
    One way to learn rolling harriers is to simply do rolling circles and pull back on the throttle. You may want low rate aileron.. or mid rate aileron as a fast roll while learning rolling harriers is harder... and slow rolling hariers look better to me anyway....

    But... before all of this.... get two of these.....
    https://host254.ipowerweb.com/~charg...18e9ff2163606c

    Foamies are a cheap, low risk way to advance skillz!!!

    ORIGINAL: David Brooks

    Ok, I have now read this thread from beginning to end. Lots of good stuff in there.

    Right now I just want to take a step back: Can someone suggest a progression of manouveres to start with? At the moment I can do the usual loops, hammerheads, snaps, spins, inverted, knife edge, etc. Where to from here? I was thinking slow rolls next. Is it worth learing rolling circles at flight speed before harriers etc? Would you recommend harriers before hovering etc?

    I'm sure I'll figure it out anyway but just wondered if people had any advice.

    Thanks

    David
    LOOKING FOR ENGINEERING WORK ON UAV'S?

  13. #288

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    I just got into 3D again and I have been practicing on the sims I also have a couple 3D planes im using to learn on but want to master the moves on a sim first this thread is full of great information!
    http://www.sdparkflyers.com
    Just get out and fly!

  14. #289
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    thats why i love this site

  15. #290

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    I've been looking thru this thread for awhile, is there any info on how to do the basic Knife Edge? I am using a Ultra Stick 60, with flaps and aielerons and mixing.

  16. #291

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Bubbagates, thanks for putting this thread together. I,m an old guy and find myself really itching to get out and try this type of flying. Ya just gotta love the internet and forums like RCUniverse for getting this kind of info out to the masses.

    thx Dave

  17. #292
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


    ORIGINAL: chuck993

    I've been looking thru this thread for awhile, is there any info on how to do the basic Knife Edge? I am using a Ultra Stick 60, with flaps and aielerons and mixing.
    i dont use mixing for my knife edge, you can but it would be ele, and some ail to hold the correct position, you dont want to use flaps or anything like that, i roll to one side, i go left from a right to left pattern, it feels more comfortable to me that way, you can do it either way, having the canopy towards you is more comfortable, you can go the other way if you like, once you get it down i have done big figure eights in a knife edge, kinda cool looking but tricky to hold it in as you go around a cirlce, anyway, roll to one side and stop it there, feed in opposite rudder, if you roll left, you will need right rudder to hold the plane level, the more rudder you give the more it will pull either towards the gear or canopy, planes are different, mine goes to the gear with more rudder, so i add up ele to keep it from tucking, you also may need to give a little left aileron because the rudder may roll it back to level, maybe someone else can explain it better, i am not sure about the ultra stick for doing it either, it may be a difficult plane to learn it on, your rudder may not be enough and it may really want to level out with rudder input...try it on a sim if you have one

  18. #293
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Folks,

    Since I'm not much of a 3D person (yes I know I started the thread but only because I thought it was pretty worth while) and I just had a suggestion via email I think is pretty good so I'll share it with everyone in hopes we can supply this info as well

    Please post anything you do to your plane to trim it for the best 3d flight it can possibly do. Ideas would be along the lines of control throw surface deflection, KE mixing, Geometery and things like that. As far as I know there is not really much actual triming to do but anything would be worth while that you may do to help you fly 3D

    Thanks....
    Bill James

    IMAC NorthEast Regional Director
    2009-2010
    2013-2014

  19. #294
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    I think one of the most important trimming issues is to trim for neutral when inverted, in other words when flying inverted the plane should fly hands off.
    David
    ____I\'\'m having a Yak Attack_____

  20. #295
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    i agree with that, it sets the cg just back far enough to do 3d well and still be managable for landings and things like that, as far as throw, alot of people say all you can get, realistically you can get away with less until you get into serious slow high alpha flight, i hardly ever have my sticks maxed out for most flying, in fact i found out early on when learning how to hover and troll, i was over correcting, once i started making less movements and let the plane do more on its own, it got easier imo, so maxed out throws arent always a good thing, you can try moves and if you think you need more, than adjust either radio or arm length, and expo is a good thing when you do have alot of throw, keeps it feeling softer around center, that way you dont get too crazy with movements when you dont want to, another thing for some reason almost all of my planes needed more right thrust, could be a personal thing, but if you are hovering and find you are putting alot of right rudder in, check it out, because it keeps you from trolling if you are always giving lots of rudder input, try and do some strait up vertical lines and see if it tracks, once i added right thrust it helped alot in hovers, trolls, and therefor many other any manuevers

  21. #296
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    A good way to verify the CG is to pull a 45 degree line and roll inverted. get the wings level and let go of the sticks. A neutral plane will continue on the same line. If it climbs it's tail heavy, if the nose starts to drop it's nose heavy. The quickness of the nose raising or dropping indicates how heavy you are in each direction

    I prefer the nose to come to level in about 5 to 7 seconds. For me and my limited 3D skills it gives me the best of both worlds as I fly IMAC mainly so I want it a bit nose heavy

    It's important to get the CG correct before you change anything else like engine thrust or lateral balance
    Bill James

    IMAC NorthEast Regional Director
    2009-2010
    2013-2014

  22. #297

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Setting the plane up for 3D is pretty simple once you get a hang of it. I always make sure that the gaps between my surfaces are nice and tight, but allow for maximum deflection. I almost always seal my gaps, usually either the bottom or the top of the ailerons and elevators. I have found that this makes the plane a bit more stable when working off of the prop was only. I also make sure that my linkages are good quality and I don't skimp out on servos--it's always better to have a bit too much than not enough. for larger planes (I would even say anything from 25% up) metal gears are a must, as are aluminum servo arms--otherwise either the arm or the servo might strip when doing blenders, walls, etc . . . another thing that is super important is servo speed--you cannot afford to have slow servos when going low and slow, as they will not be able to keep up with the plane. The linkages have to be nice and tight, and make sure you check them often because it's one thing losing the rudder at 50 ft. vs 1 foot off the ground.

    another very important factor is the weight of the plane. less weight = less wing loading with will help the plane be more stable in high alpha (less wing rocking, less snapping, etc.). keep the plane nice and light, but prioritize. for example: I don't skimp out on a battery to save weight: it doesn't make sense as that's a priority. I try to keep the wires as short as possible (I always cut them to the exact length and I don't use extensions. troybuildmodels.com has a good article on the hitec5955 vs the jr 8711 and the power loss with extensions)

    You need enough power but a rocket is not necessary if having a rocket will make the plane weigh too much. for example, I won't put a 60cc engine on a 50cc plane unless the plane tends to be tail heavy or if the 60cc engine doesn't sacrifice too much wing loading. that way, the extra weight I'm putting on the front is usable, not just lead or dead weight. I try to make sure that all the weight in the plane is usable in one way or another. on that note, however, a good power-to-weight ratio is very important.

    you need a prop that will rev up quickly and have solid vertical. you want to get some good revs out of the engine without over-revving.

    For deflection I try to get as much as I can. at least 50 deg. on the elevators, 45 on the ailerons, and 50+ for the rudder. and I MAKE SURE that the elevators deflect exactly the same amount THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE DEFLECTION (not just at full deflection and neutral), otherwise the plane will rock during a harrier or elevator or snap during a wall etc. This is more or less important depending on the airframe. some airplanes won't show a big difference, while others will be horribly unstable if the linkages aren't set up correctly.

    an aft CG helps.

    Depending on the airplane, you might have to program some KE mixes. some planes couple more than others; some planes need roll coupling and you can fly the pitch coupling; some planes need pitch coupling and you can fly the ailerons no problem; some planes need both; some neither. the less Mixing you need for KE the better, especially when you're doing a high alpha KE. reason is, if you mix too much the plane will tend to snap if on a suicide slide or a high alpha KE. Since you're usually on the sticks for 3D try to mix as little as possible to maintain the plane stable and make it look good and fly straight, but remember that you will always have to be on the sticks in one way or the other.

    For example: my Yak has mixing for pitch coupling. and mixing varies for left KE and right KE. I found that roll coupling wasn't bad enough that I couldn't fly it so it doesn't have any. I mixed for KE and not for rudder-only turns, as I use the rudder more with the plane on its side than with the plane horizontal. this would be different in freestyle, though. Usually you either mix coupling for KE or for flat turns, but not both. sometimes mixing one will fix the other, but I've found that the plane has different tendencies at the different attitudes.

    I try not to use too many mixes in terms of flapperons and spoilerons, as sometimes you'll forget to turn off the mix and it could be trouble. I use spoilerons more than flapperons. I MIGHT use a bit of spoileron (8 - 10%) while doing a harrier if the plane rocks too much. I might use flapperons if they help stabilize a waterfall or for a serious parachute. 50% + of spoilerons make some real nice elevators, but they're not really necessary unless you really want the plane to drop like a rock.

    hovering, etc. I use quite a bit of expo so that I don't over correct

    for the rest i might just have 30%

    make sure the plane has good upthrust and right thrust. usually about 2.5 degrees of right thrust and about 2 of up thrust will be a good start and are pretty standard. a lot of planes won't need up thrust. for example the QQ 102" yaks don't have upthrust, but a Funtana X100 has quite a bit of both.


    once I have the KE mix dialed in I leave it on pretty much all of the time. It makes harrier rolls straighter, etc.

    what else?

    make sure your rudder cables are nice and snug, but not stressing the airframe. you really don't want slop in your rudder from sloppy wires. the rudder will be super important for a ton of maneuvers and you need to have it dialed in.

    make sure you set up your sevo travels for AT LEAST 120%, and then reduce it, if you need to, using the double rates. this will give you max resolution out of your servos.

    hope it helps,

    Izzy

    I'm not sure if I missed something, but that's what I think about with my planes.

  23. #298

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    oh, a fast throttle servo and a DIGITAL one is key, as you want it to come back to the exact spot every time. you'll get used to exactly where the plane hovers, harriers, etc.

  24. #299
    diamondave's Avatar
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    along with prop choice, generally, a bigger diameter and a smaller pitch is best for 3d, gives more thrust and less top end speed, instead of a 14-8, try a 15-6, even for bigger motors, try a 23-8 instead of a 22-10, i started with a 26-8 to break in my zdz80, had a 26-10 to put on, but kept the 8, i liked it better

  25. #300
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Boy, you guys are just unloading [X(] all this good info, excellent, truly excellent....HUGE THUMBS UP [sm=thumbs_up.gif][sm=thumbs_up.gif][sm=shades_smile.gif]
    Bill James

    IMAC NorthEast Regional Director
    2009-2010
    2013-2014


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