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  1. #301

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Thank you everyone for some really great info, please keep it coming.

    Sinchai

  2. #302
    mr.scale's Avatar
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    hi guys this question is for the sims thread but i like to have a second opinion on a sim,
    I flown the reflex,the G2 and the G3.5 from all, I liked the G 3.5 and I don know how to compare it with the afpd or ps one!! your $.02 will help a lot!thanks
    Mr.Scale. Fernando L
    CORSAIR Brotherhood #43

  3. #303

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    FS One is the most realistic for 3D and high alpha, although it doesn't have the repertoire of planes and fields. G3.5 is also very nice and i like some of the views better. I prefer FS One for 3D and g3.5 for the rest

  4. #304
    diamondave's Avatar
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    i only have the g3.5, cant help

  5. #305

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Hi

    I've watched the video at the beginning of this thread about how to do a knife edge spin. I have been trying to do it at the field and on the sims but it just doesn't want to spin. it Kind of just does a knife edge circut and doesnt really fall. Does the plane need to be quite tail heavy in order to get it to do it properly[sm=confused.gif]? Thanks

    Mark

  6. #306
    bubbagates's Avatar
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Mark,

    It's a timing thing. I have not seen a sim yet that does one really well unless you increase the throws and sometimes that is not enough. You are looking to try to get the plane to spin right around the CG point. I do not think CG matters all that much. The two planes I will describe below are setup like this

    The Cap is dead on neutral and the Extra is nose heavy for IMAC.

    For the KE spin, you needs lots of elevator throw and loads of power

    How I like to enter mine and there is more way than one, is to do climb vertically going away from me, then reduce power and push over the top, just as the plane starts to point towards the ground I add full left rudder and full down elevator and full power, by the time you get all three in you should be in KE and it should be starting to spin. On my C-ARF 2.3 I need to hold rudder but not as much as I used to get into the spin to get the wings vertical in the spin and my Cap I need no rudder but a tad bit of left aileron to keep the wings vertical. In both cases if I do not get the timing right I end up in an upright flat spin or a series of pretty violent snaps.

    I know others like to climb vertically and add right rudder to get the left wing up and vertical then bury the throttle, elevator and switch to left rudder. I myself have had minimal luck getting a spin going that way.

    Just keep trying, once you get the timing right then your thumbs will remember what you did.

    As far as power, my Cap is seriously overpowered (da50 on a 14lb plane) and if I hold too much power it falls out pretty quickly so I have to back off once the spin starts. On the Extra, I need full power (3w70 at 21lbs).

    Both wind up really faster but the winner is the Cap. I can get it going so fast that it is falling very slowly where the Extra goes just as fast but dropping like a stone so I tend to do all mine really high up and let them come down. To get out, drop power to almost nothing, center everything, level out add power and fly away. After some practice you will be able to stop the spin where you want it. I like ending into a Harrier for the last 50 feet or so
    Bill James

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    2013-2014

  7. #307
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    i have tried it the 2nd way you described and as you say, sometimes it works some times it doesnt, if i remember i will try your other way and see what happens

  8. #308

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Thanks very much bubbagates. I will keep trying this weekend till i get it right.

    Thanks

    Mark

  9. #309
    bubbagates's Avatar
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    One thing I did forget to mention is you almost always want the left wing up, that way engine/prop torque help the spin. I've been playing with the Extra on using reverse rudder during the spin and releasing the ailerons to try not to get it to drop so fast but all it does is slow the spin once I get past a certain point.

    I did forget to mention that I have a WH 33% Edge540 and it just seems to fall right into it everytime with little to no effort on my part. A friend has the 28% version of the same plane and his does the same thing and both can really get moving and almost stop dropping with the right amount of power

    For me it's best going straight out from me as I can easily see the top of the plane when I go vertical and the point where I add rudder once I push over the top. The key is to be at very low power going over the top and quickly but smoothly adding power and rudder BEFORE you are going straight down. That way the nose dropping through the horizon helps get the spin going.

    Let us know how you guys make out. To me it's a beautiful maneuver and being able to consistently do it is a major goal of mine right now.

    Now here is another one that is not really a 3D maneuver but is a thing of beauty. We all know how to tumble a plane but have you ever tried it from inverted using left rudder. Most people do it going straight up or in a climbing 45 degree knife edge

    Again this is a power maneuver and loads of power help a lot. You can do it with moderate power but the tail will never come fully into the line of flight. YOur gola for this one is to have the tail come around into the line of flight so that when the plane is tumbling it will be doing it in the same direction as the plane is flying going tail over nose. Most lightweight models will not bring the tail around and mass and momentum are everything but it still looks good.

    I only have two planes that will do this, the before mentioned Cap and Edge. The Cap wins hands down and the Edge only gets the tail around once, it needs more power.

    Come along inverted about 1/4 to one half throttle. Add full left rudder, full power and full down. Add these with about a full one-half second delay between each. If it works after about 2 tumbles you'll see the tail come sraight into the flight path and you'll get one more tumble, maybe 1.5 more and she'll fall into a flat sping. This is a very stressful thing to the airframe and in early full scale flying it was known to loosen engine moiunts and I've had one model land with the engine loose so after you do the first one land ASAP and go over the plane.

    Be prepared to get a bit frightened when this thing starts as it is pretty violent but not fast and it seems as though you will be completely out of control which you will not be. I've been doing it like this for some time now and I do it inverted level, inverted climbing and inverted (as far as my perpesctive is) going straight up

    What is happening is you are telling the airframe to go one way and the engine is going the other way so you are effectively twisting the ariframe it's entire length. I've cracked the cockpit floor out of my Cap so may times it's just not worth tryng to reglue it anymore.

    Oh yea, do not do this and 3d rates. 90% of the time low to middle rates are plenty. On extreme rate/high throws all you are going to get is some very high stress negative snaps that may pull the wings off. I know I've seen the same Cap I have with the same setup do it and watched the one piece wing come off, remeber the twist I mentioned

    Bill James

    IMAC NorthEast Regional Director
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    2013-2014

  10. #310
    Cambo's Avatar
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Hi Everyone

    I have been reading through this thread and it is amazing how helpful it is. Anyway, i have been trying to 3d my funtana x50 and am finding out it really doesn't fly well. At least IMO. So i baught a little gp yak 3d foam electric. Lots of fun. It is gaining weight fast from glue, been trying lots of new stuff . I just recently ordered a OMP Katana v2 70 also to better fit my funtana equipment.

    So, i have a few questions.

    1. I noticed both with my funtana and my little foamy that it is difficult to decend in altitude in a hover without falling out. For example, say you enter a hover low to the ground via a wall, and then you want to do a tail touch, how do you do that without falling out. More rearward CG perhaps?

    2. It seems that no matter how many times I try i can't do a waterfall. I always (even on maxs throughs) seem to do a continuous tite inside out loop

    3. I just can't get my rolling harriers nice and smooth. They look very ugly and very jerky. More practice i guese?

  11. #311
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    with katana V2 70 - go with a little tailweight for better tailtouches and waterfalls.

    I got a saito 100 on mine and got 20gram lead weights (10 per side) just near the tail wheel. beautiful waterfalls and rock solid harriers with a little spoileron mix. (knife edge WILL suffer from the rear CG thou.)
    LiQuid TR

  12. #312

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    For the rolling harriers just practice. If you can do some good rolling circles then you have the movements down. to go from rolling circles to rolling harriers it's the same movements a bit exaggerated and throttle control. all you have to add is good throttle control and you'll have solid rollers. Once you get that down the rest is cake

  13. #313
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    There are a few issues you are probably dealing with.

    1. Inexperience. Once you get accustomed to hovering you can bring most any airplane right down and touch the tail if you choose to do so.

    2. You MIGHT be a little bit nose heavy. If you roll the plane inverted and do not hold up elevator the plane should very slowly lose altitude. You should need just the slighest breath of down elevator to hold level inverted flight. If you dont need any elevator or the plane climbs without elevator while inverted you are tail heavy enough. I personally would not want to setup my airplane for hands off inverted JUST so its easier to hover. It will wreck all of the other important flight characteristics. Again, level flight with just a breath of down elevator to hold level flight. If it take a lot of down elevator you are nose heavy, if it takes no down elevator its too tailheavy.

    3. Hovering is like balancing a pencil in your fingertip.. Its a very delicate balance that is EASILY upset. Backing an airplane down for a tail touch takes a lot of skill and practice... There are TONS of guys that have put in the hours and make it look easy to back a plane down, but looks are deceiving, its HARD . It only looks easy because they have practiced and practiced and practiced and practiced some more. Descending vertically tail first is not something that an airplane wants to do and its going to fight you all the way until you learn how to work with it. One key element is throttle control, you need good throttle servo resolution so that you can make very fine throttle adjustments. ESPECIALLY while you are learning. If you resolution is too tight like 60/60 ATV(endpoints) or unbalanced like 80/120 ATV(endpoints) then the throttle response is going to be too fast in places and too slow in others. Ideally you want a short servo arm and long throttle arm so that you can maximize servo resolution like 120/120 ATV(Endpoints) That is, every click of the throttle makes the smallest move possible, If your resolution is too low 60/60 or even 80/80,, then each click makes too big of a change in the throttle and you end up climbing with one click up and falling with 1 click down on the throttle stick.. You need the throttle to be very soft so that you can move the stick 1 click at a time and very slowly EEEEASE the airplane back down to the ground to touch the tail. If you are overdoing the throttle and trying to horse the plane down to the ground its going to be really hard for you to learn. Big throttle movements bring erratic engine torque into the equation and that torque is going to be jerking the airplane around and you are going to have to fight that much more with the other controls. Once you get nice high throttle resolution and you can make nice small changes on the throttle stick to very gently increase the vertical ascent or descent in a hover its going to be a lot easier to touch the tail.
    Another thing is learning how torque and your prop comes into play at all times in a hover. Again, that is why you need a good throttle setup. A lot of times you may notice your plane start to want to torque roll a little so you add aileron, then more aileron and its still wanting to torque roll. SO you bump the throttle, which increases prop wash to make the ailerons more effective but now you are going UP again!!! UGH!. So whats the solution? Is your props wash not effective enough? Do you not have enough aileron throw? Is your throttle too sensitive? Well, that is why you need to eliminate problems before you ever fly the first flight. Get the throttle resolution optimized, then make sure you have the right prop for 3D on your plane, then its just a matter of getting the aileron throw and expo setup so that the plane responds like you want it to when you add aileron. If you dont have enough throw or too much expo, then the airplane will not stop torque rolling like you think it should, so increase throw or reduce expo. But be aware of the consequences of increase in roll rate during other maneuvers where you use high rates. If the ailerons are too sensitive, reduce throw or expo until it does what you want it to do.. I have even switched to hovering on low aileron rates on planes that have very effective ailerons like my Extreme Flight Yak. A good rule of thumb is to set your rates so that you only have the throw you absolutely need for your most demanding maneuver, anything more is just going to make things jerky.


    Now, dont confuse this with #3,,, people who have become very proficient at hovering CAN horse the plane down right in front of them because they have become VERY good at balancing that pencil on their fingertip. They can do it with a poorly set up plane that in the hands of a human would fall out of the sky. Watching Kyle Woyshnis or Mark Leseburg chop the throttle and letting the plane fall 6-10 feet in a chunk as they back it down to the ground looks GREAT and they make it look easy.. It is easy ONCE YOU LEARN TO DO IT... But until you do, the best place to start getting a plane down on the deck is with good throttle management as I mentioned above.

    4. A waterfall takes not only a slightly tailheavy plane it takes a LOT of elevator throw and probably the most overlooked necessity is POWER. You need a good strong engine that is a stump puller for an aiplane of your size. You need to be able to get the momentum going to pull the plane back over the top of the waterfall. Also you should be in and out of the throttle to get the waterfall going. Hard on the power when the nose is from about 10 o clock to 2 o clock out of the power as the plane flips over then back in... Its sort of like a slingshot effect. IF you leave the power in its just easier to get out of line.. 1 more thing, you have to learn to use the rudder in a waterfall to keep the plane upright. Once it winds up it does not take much, but you may have to really work the rudder until the speed of rotation really winds up, then momentum takes over.
    Mike East
    AMA 793948

    Back to square one .

  14. #314
    Cambo's Avatar
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    WOW MIKE, THANKS FOR THE ADVICE!!!!!

  15. #315

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    RE: New Video: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Thks alot!!! Cool vids
    \"It was the transmiter\" \"I swear\"

  16. #316
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Hey great thead i think it helps speed the prosses and ease the pain for a lot of people[sm=thumbup.gif] ive been trying to move on to harriers and to do one right do you all ways have full elavator in or is every plane a little different because i add in a little trottle just enough to keep from sinking and i cant seem to keep her from going in to a hover or flipin on over
    1 million seconds is 12 days, 1 billion seconds is 35 years. Yet, we wonder why so much can happen in a second.

  17. #317

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    no, you don't usually use full elevator. the plane will have a sweet spot with a combination of elevator and throttle that will keep the plane at the same attitude and height. most of the time you're making small corrections on the throttle, elevator, rudder, and ailerons (depending on the plane). that's why it's important to have a good throttle curve set up and a good expo curve that allows you to have good resolution on the elevator and throttle. a good way to practice is to go to a harrier coming in from an elevator--just increase throttle and use less elevator and the plane will 'lock' up into a harrier

  18. #318
    Cambo's Avatar
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Okay guys

    The katana arrived last week and i got it up and running. I finally really got the engine dialed in today and man was i having a blast. This thing just FLOATS all day long. I no longer fear anything as i had to dead stick from a hover 20ft up (LS was way out of wack) and landed without a problem. So, i really got some good practice in today. The plane will enter the high alpha knife edge that is just so cool looking. I was doing it like 5ft off the ground. My first harriers were attempted with something other than my electric. Hovers are just beautiful with this plane.

    Now i still need some help.

    1. I can't seem to enter a hover to well (trying to get close to the ground) without the momentum of the plane pushing up an extra 20 ft.

    2. I did my first rolling circle but i have been using just elevator. After i got used to that i tried to just use rudder. I am trying to learn each perspective at a time as doing both at once is just to much for me. (I have a MAC so a good sim is not an option). Is this bad practice. Was doing this with rolling harriers also.

  19. #319
    mithrandir's Avatar
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    I will toss in another two cents....

    The biggest step forward to learn 3D would be to have a docile and predictable plane. Ever wonder why all the
    celebrities of 3D fly 40% planes??... because they are much easier!!! Here is a link of my SX doing a couple of the
    maneuvers discussed... namely a Harrier and a rolling harrier... (Sorry 'bout the quality )... but it is evident
    from this video, that a docile and predictable model is clearly helpful to learn 3D. When you know the plane
    is ONLY going to do what YOU command it to do, it enables YOU to expand your envelope....

    http://media.putfile.com/Comp-Arf-Su...ABA-DigiServos

    Also... you get better when you are on the edge of your comfort zone... When you need to take'r up high and circle
    fly a minute to give your brain a moments rest.. that is an indication that you are CONCENTRATING!! You are flying
    on YOUR personal Edge!

    A word regarding props... though the trend of Lower Pitch/Longer prop does give you better low end pullout,
    that is really only important with marginally powered planes... if you have a 39 pound plane with a DA150,
    you got enuff power!! (Unless you are at 7000 feet!!!)
    My experiance is that a MENZ 30 x 12 prop has the same top speed as a 32 x 10, but... it is less "Grabby" thru
    the mid range... by this I mean.. it is easier to TR without climbing or descending... it is easier to do Harriers
    and harrier rolls and maintain altitude and AOA!! It is less grabby and also less drag on landing approach.

    Bottom line... get a slow, docile plane and that will allow YOU to get better and better!!!

    "Foamies and Forties... anything else is a waste of time!!"
    LOOKING FOR ENGINEERING WORK ON UAV'S?

  20. #320
    mithrandir's Avatar
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Here is another short video with many of the common 3D trix... note the engine modulation...
    Just enuff throttle to get the job done....
    Note the TR's... once she is in the sweet spot.. very little control deflections to keep it
    steady...

    http://media.putfile.com/FUTABA-and-Super-Extra-002

    LOOKING FOR ENGINEERING WORK ON UAV'S?

  21. #321
    Cambo's Avatar
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    The plane i have is a katana 70 v2 profile. It weighs in at 6.4 pounds and has 1012 inches of wing area. The engine is a 90 2c. It is SOOOO overpowered. Anyway, i did my first flatspins today. Really cool, the only problem is the engine would quit if i tried to get to full throttle. It would just start to do a climbing flat spin and the engine would die. Still really cool though. I also did my first torque roll today. Again another cool move.

  22. #322

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    I looked but didnt find setup and instructions for flat spin , inverted flatspin and hover anyone want to help.
    Thanks

  23. #323
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Mr.Scale. Fernando L
    CORSAIR Brotherhood #43

  24. #324

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    RE: New Video: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


  25. #325
    mr.scale's Avatar
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    RE: New Video: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Mr.Scale. Fernando L
    CORSAIR Brotherhood #43


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