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  1. #326
    mithrandir's Avatar
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


    ORIGINAL: zoott

    I looked but didnt find setup and instructions for flat spin , inverted flatspin and hover anyone want to help.
    Thanks
    It is not unusual for planes to flat spin with different inputs.
    A typical flat spin entry is from a normal spin, high rates, once the spin is
    established, neutralize ailerons and add power... sometimes, add power
    and then neutralize ailerons, sometimes, add power, reverse ailerons..
    sometimes abruptly reverse ailerons, sometimes slowly reverse ailerons.
    It is different for different planes.
    Try this.... establish left rolling down line at idle power and 3D rates,
    before too much speed has developed, let go of the ailerons and go full down and full
    RIGHT rudder... and add enuff power to bring the nose up to the horizon.
    Experiment with ailerons to find best ail input. If the flat spin gets abrupt and "Tippy"
    and unstable.. likely too much power.

    To hover... easiest to start with a sim and a tail heavy plane...
    simple.. practice keeping the nose vertical without climbing...
    use either right aileron (Likely 100% right ail) or let it TR...

    Also.. consider defeating the "Ratchet" on the throttle stick and use just
    friction like the heli guys do... this makes it easier to find the exact power
    setting for constant height whilst hovering....
    LOOKING FOR ENGINEERING WORK ON UAV'S?

  2. #327

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Hi Mike and All

    Fantastic thread, keep coming back to it. This is my first time getting into 3D in any serious way and all the hints and tips have been really useful. Have just got an aircraft ready to fly (world models Groovy 50, Ys 63) now all I need is some good weather and work to give me a break!. I have been using Aerofly Pro to try a few things out, and with your help and a lot of practice things are starting to come together. I'll throw in a few things that have been good for me with this sim.

    I tried starting off with the smaller models(hype etc.) but just couldn't seem to get into the mindset. I then switched to the large Extra and Giles, slowed the sim rate to about 50%. That way I could see what was happening and give me time to get the correct inputs in. Gradually speeding up the rates until 100% I found that you get comfortable with the aircraft in any position. I then switched back to the hype, and whaddaya know I can keep it in a hover/torque roll/harrier.

    Rolling harriers are next on the agenda having just got comfy with rolling circles( something I have had problems with for many years).
    When I finally get to try it out for real I'll let you know how I got on.

    Keep up the good work

    Happy flying!!

    Rab

  3. #328

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Thanks for reminding me about the ability to slow down the sim. This is going to work wonders!

    Steve
    I refuse to grow up. And as long as there are planes to fly, I won\'t have to!

  4. #329

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Wow, this was actually pretty helpful. I will try these maneuvers the next time I have a good 3D plane, not this half 3D capable Riot 3D. The waterfalls, and the blenders are what I am wanting to work on next.
    Life is short, fly more!

  5. #330

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Hi ya I have been trying to do a harrier with my cox 40 ultimate with a super tiger 51 swinging a 12/4 apc the plane will sort of hover into the wind @ alittle over half throtle with a very slow pull out i seem to be carrying to much monentum and when i try to slow down it eather to stall speed or way to fast thinking about 4 stroke purchase so i can better prop but wondering if maybee i should try diffrant plane is the thing even able to get to walking pace slow > Thanks
    Better a messy win than a clean loss!!!

  6. #331
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Ultimates are a little harder to harrier because the wing loading is higher with the skiiny little wings on it. I think the best plane to harrier in is a Kadet Senoir with a 70 4 stroke in 20 mph winds

    Stick 40
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    I am the Master of Puppets

  7. #332

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    My Last Parachute:

    A U-Can-Do-3d .46 with a 2-stroke SK .80

    Straight down, pulled full up elevator, plane snapped to level flight, but the engine
    continued going straight down. Without the weight of the engine, the plane did a
    fluttering, falling leaf impression.

    I quit doing parachutes...

  8. #333
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Great Forum!!!
    MikeEast Your the best!! You started this and Thanks to all for the info. I have been trying to learn this 3d on my own (nobody else around) and this has been a grreat help. As the attched pictures will show, I still need lots of practice (plus a new plane). But this info will help as I have already noted some things I did wrong.
    Personal note for all -- Guide wires have a very strong pulling force that attracts flying objects.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Bring Back the Hueys. I miss the Thump, Thump, Thump.

  9. #334
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    best advice I ever got for rolling harriers was to practice and learn these on a slope with a glider first. it is too easy to bail out with power and never learn anything. learning to control an airplane without an engine is criticle for 3d. on a slope you can serf the air waive while rolling back and forth accross the slope face in reletive safety - with lots of up air lift you can roll stationary standing directly behind airplane for hours and hone your skill. the airplane will "settle in" to diff angles of attack to compensate for diff wind speed for you to maintain stationary flight while rolling. this frees you up to just learn combinations of elev/rudder even some more or less constant ail to bend the airplane to the left - right - away or back towards you. when you roll thru both knife edges with a thin glider with no side area on a slope they drop like a rock requiring you to master big rudder stick movement to the point it becomes second nature - you always need more knife edge rudder movement than elevator for rolling harriers. too many 3d guys never learn to control an airplane flying on control surfaces and using surounding air rather than an over powered engine with an on off switch and too much elevator. when I transitioned from slope to power suddenly I was putting in just the right amount of throttle not too much or too little to just hold the airplane up without trying. after many hours of watching my airplane in a constant stationary roll on the slope I became relaxed as my wing would nearly touch the ground while rolling at the power field. too many pilots panic, freez, overeact, bailout when their planes are rolling a few feet off the ground and they never get over this or improve their skill.

    funny how you can interview a skydiver and he will say every jump is scary anything can go wrong - this is how it will always be. then interview the skydiver that has spent time practicing in a wind tunnel on the ground in relative safety and he will say it is like walking accross the street no big deal.

  10. #335
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    In the full scale Pitts type aircraft that is pretty much the way that you do a knife edge spin. Hammerhead left, then right rudder after about 90degrees of rotation and full forward stick. Aileron is held to the right (and it's already there in a hammerhead anyway). Aileron is variable through the spin and requires constant adjustment to keep it dialed in, and it takes practice to get them to really tighten up and stay KE, and because gyroscopic action of the prop isn't helping to keep the nose high, these are "accelerated" KE spins. The biplanes do not really like KE spins much when done right wing low though, and many Pitts pilots thought that you simply couldn't do them in the Pitts, but that is because they were trying them as the monoplane pilots do them. Which brings me to the comment that I wanted to add initially, which is my take on the best looking knife edge spin entry, as I do it in full scale monoplanes, and the method I use in my RC aircraft as well.

    Pull to vertical as in a hammerhead, when you want to initiate thespin, reduce power to around 25% (in most of our 3D planes that's enough throttle for a goood pivot, if you are REALLY overpowered or underpowered it will vary of course-the objective is to have just enough airflow over the tail, but still are large power reserve available), kick full left rudder to pivot and perform a normal hammerhead, except that instead of stopping the pivot after 180 degrees of yaw, you keep the full left rudder in, and at around the 150 degree point of the pivot as the nose nears the vertical downline start adding throttle to around 50% (or however much you can carry without flying out of the figure). This blast of power will drive the pivot more strongly past the 180 degree point, and back up towards the "2nd horizon." As the yaw rate starts to decrease (around the 240 degree point) you are ready to come in with full forward stick and some left aileron. . .once in the spin, you should be hold full left rudder, full forward elevator, and whatever aileron it takes to keep it KE.

    Depending on the aircraft, kicking just a moment earlier than you would for a hammerhead may help the pivot go beyond 180 degrees. Also, the amount of throttle you need to add back in towards the end of the pivot to drive the spin will depend on the model and powerplant, and once you get a nice KE spin going you can practice adding throttle to see how much you can add before it wants to spiral out of the spin, it may not do this, and in that case, going to just about full throttle will help to really bring the nose up towards the horizon, and to get a nice tight spin right around the CG. In full scale aircraft, and large scale RC models the gyroscopic action of the prop is important for driving the nose up, so right wing low, and forward stick is the ideal. (The same goes for flat spins, if upright, use left rudder, if inverted use right)

    And now some really cool videos on the subject:

    14 seconds into this video is an excellent helmet cam view and an external view of a KE spin in an Edge540, oh and at the very end is an awesome view of another KE spin!:
    http://www.billsteinairshows.com/Vid...DemoMedium.wmv

    At 3:15 in the 2005-2006 Demo video (and the video archives page) there is a helmet cam view and an external view of a longer KE spin. There is lots of cool tumbles, snaps, torque rolls, tailslides and such in Bill's other videos so check them out at: http://www.billsteinairshows.com/BSADemoVideo.html


    ,Go here to see the KE spin in the Pitts S-2C from a cockpit mounted camera:
    http://www.tutimaacademy.com/video_spin.html





    ORIGINAL: Pat Roy

    Another entry for the KE spin, but it works better for the larger planes with more tail areas.

    Go vertical into a hammerhead. Carry just a touch of throttle so you won't make a full stop at the top. Just before the stall at the top go to max high rate rudder either direction. As the plane rotates to the horizontal on the rudder input, reverse the rudder to the top, add full up or down high rate elevator, depending on the desired direction of rotation. Hold the top rudder and max elevator, maintain neutral ailerons and throw power at it to get the rotation going. Use ailerons to counter roll coupling.

    Bubba, just found this thread for the first time, what a great idea!!
    -Brett
    Northern California Aerobatic Club:http://www.iac38.org/
    Team Raven: www.waynehandley.com

  11. #336

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    RE: New Video: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    hey guys i am wanting to start to learn how to fly 3D i have been looking at a Extra 260 50 - 53.5" 3D and puting a .61 supertiger in it does anyone know if that will do most 3D manuvers?

  12. #337
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Hi everyone. What is the best way to enter a low hover without the planes momentum moving it higher into the air?

    Thanks

  13. #338
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    RE: New Video: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


    ORIGINAL: porkboy125

    hey guys i am wanting to start to learn how to fly 3D i have been looking at a Extra 260 50 - 53.5" 3D and puting a .61 supertiger in it does anyone know if that will do most 3D manuvers?
    You should have a 2 to 1 thrust to weight ratio for good 3D
    David
    ____I\'\'m having a Yak Attack_____

  14. #339
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


    ORIGINAL: Cambo

    Hi everyone. What is the best way to enter a low hover without the planes momentum moving it higher into the air?

    Thanks
    How about a harrier into hoover or using a tail slide into a hoover.
    David
    ____I\'\'m having a Yak Attack_____

  15. #340

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


    ORIGINAL: AirWizard


    ORIGINAL: Cambo

    Hi everyone. What is the best way to enter a low hover without the planes momentum moving it higher into the air?

    Thanks
    How about a harrier into hoover or using a tail slide into a hoover.
    I was going to say the same thing. With practice you can learn to transition from a wall into a hover without gaining a lot of altitude. But wizards' suggestion is spot on.

    Steve
    I refuse to grow up. And as long as there are planes to fly, I won\'t have to!

  16. #341

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


    ORIGINAL: Cambo

    Hi everyone. What is the best way to enter a low hover without the planes momentum moving it higher into the air?

    Thanks
    The easiest way...is to NOT have the momentum when you start, and enough elevator to pop it nose up!! really simple...when you get the "hang" of it.....no pun intended. LOL
    RC MANIAC-PRO BRO 1900-AMA# 95841

  17. #342

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


    ORIGINAL: AirWizard


    ORIGINAL: Cambo

    Hi everyone. What is the best way to enter a low hover without the planes momentum moving it higher into the air?

    Thanks
    How about a harrier into hoover or using a tail slide into a hoover.
    Thats how I do it,, works great

  18. #343
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Ya, just haven't goten confident with those low hairiers yet. Really have to practice that. My walls look goood but i always seems to have a little upward speed after i stop. I could have something to do with a 50cc gasoline in a 13# plane .

    I am so close to on the deck 3d. Just not quite there.

  19. #344

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Nice video.
    If you eat your own stomach, where does it go?

  20. #345
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    I watched the vid, if RC pilots could feel what full scale pilots feel, there might not be much 3-D going on!
    Did anyone mention it helps to learn 4-point,8-point,slow rolls, rolling circles & some other "old-school" maneuvers first??? I think this is why a lot give up on 3-D, it will be even harder to pick up without a good foundation to build on.
    Jimmy touch tail & I dont care!!!

  21. #346

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Did I overlook it, or is there nothing here about Rolling turns? I can't get my mind around how it's done. can someone shed some light on this 3D task?

  22. #347
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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    i would like to know too, im trying to leartn, so far i can some what turn o the left while rollin left, i would love to be able to do it in any combinatiion, such as rollin to the right and turning to the left
    \"Propellers are notorious for inflicting serious bodily harm while vigorously defending their space\" George Aldrich

  23. #348

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


    I would like to know too, im trying to leartn, so far i can some what turn o the left while rollin left, i would love to be able to do it in any combinatiion, such as rollin to the right and turning to the left
    By "rolling turn" I assume we're talking about rolling circles. For me, the easiest rolling circle is a circle to the left while rolling right (i.e., to the outside). The reason is I fly with thumb and index finger, and with short fingers, it's easier to roll right than left. Start from left to right in a straight line, adjust the throttle for a moderate flight speed. As the model passes you add some left rudder, the plane starts a slight skid to the left and this helps to start the circle, now add small amount of right aileron, the plane begins to roll to the outside, add more left rudder to keep the nose up, as it passes the vertical, begin to add down elevator easing off the left rudder, then as the roll continues in comes the right rudder as you ease off the down elevator, then in comes up elevator and so on. So, for a rolling circle to the left, with rolls to the outside, the squence is left, down, right and up. All of this in combination with aileron to keep the rolls at the proper rate, and throttle management to maintain a constant groundspeed as the wind affects the circle. The timing and amount of flight control inputs are what make the circle. A rolling circle is nothing more than slow rolls with inputs modified to produce the turn. Additionally, the timing of the flight control inputs, and to an extent, throttle management, allow you to gain or lose altitude while doing the manuver. Rolling circles may not have the wow factor of a low torque roll but they are a thing of beauty and require a great deal of flying skill to be done properly. A GOOD rolling circle requires constant changes to aileron, elevator, rudder and throttle. Airwayman
    Forward is down, back is up and further back is....down?

  24. #349

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

    Dear mithrandir,

    do you remember me? I am Italian-Flyer. My thred was "Learning 3D step by step" and you thought I was an idiot.

    Now I'm pleased that there is a thread that teaches how to do 3d maneuvers.

    Then I was not an idiot.


  25. #350

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    RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


    ORIGINAL: perkinsm


    ORIGINAL: AirWizard


    ORIGINAL: Cambo

    Hi everyone. What is the best way to enter a low hover without the planes momentum moving it higher into the air?

    Thanks
    How about a harrier into hoover or using a tail slide into a hoover.
    Thats how I do it,, works great
    I use the planes momentum to sweep it up to 90*, and cut the throttle before it reaches the 90. Its really all about throttle timing the way I do it, its easier in my opinion then trying to slide it in or anything.


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