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New Video: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

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Old 08-01-2008, 12:28 PM
  #351
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Just came across this thread. I like to think i know most of the repertoire of manouveres these days but its always interesting to read how others do them and there is world of difference between doing even the most basic manouveres and doing them WELL. Unless you are a Kyle, Schulman, Leesburg, Briggs, Le-Roux or some other super-human type with a gift like me you need all the tips, tricks and beenfit of others experience you can get your hands on. A snap is a good case in point, i learned how to put the sticks in the corners about 6 months after learning to fly but 7 years later im still polishing my snaps

A thought about a couple of manouveres missing from the thread, and worth adding:

Lomcevak (or tumble)
1. usually entered from left-to-right knife-edge at about half to 75% throttle.
2. Quickly apply full left aileron and down elevator and simultaneously drop the throttle to 25% or even idle.
2. The aircraft should tumble end over end. A true lomcevak requires the tail to pass through the flight line of the aircraft (ie in front!).
3. a nice exit is to recover again in knife-edge, or, go straight into a hover/torque roll.
The full size has another variation on this that ive seen Kirby Chambliss and the like do but ive been unable to replicate it with the model. They enter from high, straight and level 75% throttle, yaw left, then execute the tumble as above and the aircraft very slowly tumbles end-over-end descending until the tumble loses moemntum and they recover.

Rebound roll
There are a multitude of variations of this based on the same principle of making the aircraft seem as if it was rolling and bounced off a spring rolling back in the other direction. My favourite is:
1. Enter straight level and upright. Roll left at maximum roll rate to inverted.
2. Stop the roll dead level inverted and simultaneously apply maximum opposite roll, BRIEFLY, and quickly release pressure slowing the return roll rate to a slow roll rate finishing a full roll, returning to inverted again. All the time correcting flight path as required with rudder/elevator.

The variations all have the start and rebound starting and finishing at different positions, ie 1/4 roll, 1/2 roll, 3/4 roll etc.
When I saw and worked this one out i thought that seems easy enough. Then i tried it and its one of the toughest manouveres ive tried to get looking good.

Great thread btw!
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Old 08-01-2008, 02:08 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

amjflyer,

When doing the Lomcevak, do you continue to hold the rudder input where it was during the knife edge entry?

Greg
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Old 08-01-2008, 02:37 PM
  #353
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

You can get away with holding the rudder where it is if you're lucky or have good timing. On smaller models (under 50cc) the tumble happens so fast you cant (or at least i cant!) really see when to feed in the recovery inputs so its down purely to timing (a bit like a snap roll).
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Old 08-01-2008, 10:48 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

My variation on the Lomcevak is going right to left in a 45 degree upline roll to knifedge then peg throttle rudder stick to the upper right corner at the same time full left aileron and down elevator. The Lomcevak is a very impressive.
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Old 08-01-2008, 10:51 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

I will hold these inputs until you are ready to finish.....in which case I usually fly out inverted
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Old 08-02-2008, 04:48 AM
  #356
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


Quote:
My variation on the Lomcevak is going right to left in a 45 degree upline roll to knifedge then peg throttle rudder stick to the upper right corner at the same time full left aileron and down elevator. The Lomcevak is a very impressive.
There are many variations of the lomcevak, even how to spell it and pronounce it. In my book, what you describe above is a left outside snap roll.
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Old 08-02-2008, 06:20 AM
  #357
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Yes i thought when i first looked at the manouvere that its basically a negative left snap roll as the inputs are very similar, but its really not. The key difference is that you are using full down on the elevator and entry airspeed is critical tso that there is enough momentum to get the tail to rotate in front of the nose through the line of flight. Clearly if this happens it is NOT a snap roll. In a snap roll generally you are using only a hint of elevator , neg or pos, and only using it at entry into the manouvere then releasing as soon as rotation starts. As Mike points out early in teh tutorial the snap is not as many have been taught a simple sticks in teh corners manouvere there is a lot more to it than that and using full deflections on all surfaces usually produces a rather ugly, over deep and difficult to control snap.
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Old 08-12-2008, 10:41 AM
  #358
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

This'll also happen if lateral balance has been acheived by adding tip weight. Goosing the throttle will cause the plane to try to yaw laterally towards the weighted wingtip because the mass is farther from the thrust line that the mass it was fitted to counteract. The only real solution there is to scrath build, weigh all the materials, install all the heavy stuff along the centerline (side to side, up and down) THEN the prop wash swirl will be the only thing to contend with
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Old 08-14-2008, 07:06 PM
  #359
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

i found to get into a low hover is to come down the runway like you going to land, slow and low, not much throttle at all, a few feet high at most, then when in front of me or just past me(where i perfer), i give elevator and goose the throttle, like a wall but in slow motion, and the throttle burst almost pivots the plane to upright with gaining altittude, a few times and you will see it works very well imo
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Old 10-02-2008, 06:43 PM
  #360
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Easiest way to enter a low hover is from a simple harrier.
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Old 10-05-2008, 12:11 AM
  #361
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Rod Bender

Ya, I hear ya,

We just lost our oldest member a few months ago. CB was 83yrs young, and flew right up until his passing. Granted, he could only fly about 150yds, then handed the TX over to someone as he could not see the plane anymore. But, that 150yds kept him coming out around once a week, it was a pleasure to meet him. His AMA # was 4 digits !!!!! Greg
Hey Rod Bender , I was wondering if your from the Cameron Park Ace Hardware ? Ive shopped there a couple times for plane stuff .
I was reading about your friend CB that passed and your statement about the old being intimidated .

I was unable to fly at my club (SAM's) cause a pylon race was going on so I went to the Mather club . I met an older gent named , Rodger Grotheer . He must be somewhere between 70-80 years old . I found out he has a new sponsership with Airtronics while talkin to him . He was flying a Kadet Senior with his own designed "Barn Door Ailerons" . He was flying low and slow doing aerobatics that made my jaw drop . Found out later he was sponsered before for pylon racing . There are some old guys still out there that us young guns have nothing on . By the way , he did show me his AMA # and it was 4 digits too . Probly has an 8 digit SS # too .

If your from Sac area what club you fly at . Eldorado flyers?
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Old 12-27-2008, 04:11 PM
  #362
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Im learning 3D, well hover, then 3D on a ParkZone Typhoon 2 3D. Is that a good plane to learn these maneuvers?
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Old 12-27-2008, 04:12 PM
  #363
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

The bigger the plane the better to hover. I have a typhoon and never fly it
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Old 01-09-2009, 03:18 PM
  #364
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

I am sure some of these items have been touched upon in the thread so far. However my experience in learning 3D maneuvers has been the following

A neutral/slightly nose heavy plane is easier for me to 3D with than a tail heavy plane.
I struggled with hovering and torque rolls for months and months and set up the plane on the tail heavy side. I was finally convinced to move the CG forward on 2 of my planes
and keep trying to hover and torque roll. On one day I did about six flights inching the CG forward every time. Going from tail heavy to nose heavy. ( subsequently I do this on all my new planes to find the sweet spot) I found that once the CG got slightly nose heavy (and I mean slightly) the plane was more predictable and more responsive to tail inputs and my 3D skills started to improve

The reason for this is as follows.
When hovering with the correct throttle inputs (to low a throttle the plane falls off and nose heavy it falls quicker) the CG is not relevent to keeping the nose up as the prop is creating the lift (not the wings) and therefore other than the spinner 100% of the weight is behind the lift point (being the prop) . so keeping the nose up is a function of throttle to overcome the entire weight of the plane and in addition any drag created by surfaces moving and not CG location. Changing the cg will not keep the nose up only good throttle management will. (as well as the correct inputs with elevator and rudder)

The CG does make a difference on the reaction of the tail to input. The more tail heavy the plane is the more input you need to make the tail move as the tail has more mass or weight to move hence more input . think of pendulum, a heavy one takes more force to stop it moving and get it going the other way than a lighter on and essentially in a hover the prop is your pendulum pivot point) I was very skeptical but convinced after trying the gradual moves of the CG forward . The reason i think newbies "think" a plane is more reactive in a tail heavy configuration is they tend to not get the "instant" reaction on the tail surface in a hover and therefore add to much input and end up over controlling the surface and getting behind.

I have purchased about 4 planes from people learning to 3D and always find the CG to far back. Tail heavy is ok but just like anything else to much is not good.
I also find the "slight" nose heavy condition makes for better harriers and rolling harriers as the the nose wants to drop a little and adding throttle to compensate gives a really good constant forward momentum without having to constantly blip the throttle..

There are a lot of people that fly 3D very well with a tail heavy planes. I typically find that I have to have a lot more stick input when flying their plane to get a similiar manouver done and that around center their planes feel mushy. They always say my control surfaces are much more sensitive to them.

There is more than one way to solve the same problem and this is just my experience. I like the plane to react predictably and quickly with less stick input and found that when I moved the CG to "slightly" nose heavy my 3D skills improved exponentially. This may or may not work for you. But if you are struggling its worth a shot to try it.

just my 2c worth.

Kevin






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Old 01-09-2009, 04:02 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


Quote:
ORIGINAL: kevinf2501

I am sure some of these items have been touched upon in the thread so far. However my experience in learning 3D maneuvers has been the following

A neutral/slightly nose heavy plane is easier for me to 3D with than a tail heavy plane.
I struggled with hovering and torque rolls for months and months and set up the plane on the tail heavy side. I was finally convinced to move the CG forward on 2 of my planes
and keep trying to hover and torque roll. On one day I did about six flights inching the CG forward every time. Going from tail heavy to nose heavy. ( subsequently I do this on all my new planes to find the sweet spot) I found that once the CG got slightly nose heavy (and I mean slightly) the plane was more predictable and more responsive to tail inputs and my 3D skills started to improve

The reason for this is as follows.
When hovering with the correct throttle inputs (to low a throttle the plane falls off and nose heavy it falls quicker) the CG is not relevent to keeping the nose up as the prop is creating the lift (not the wings) and therefore other than the spinner 100% of the weight is behind the lift point (being the prop) . so keeping the nose up is a function of throttle to overcome the entire weight of the plane and in addition any drag created by surfaces moving and not CG location. Changing the cg will not keep the nose up only good throttle management will. (as well as the correct inputs with elevator and rudder)

The CG does make a difference on the reaction of the tail to input. The more tail heavy the plane is the more input you need to make the tail move as the tail has more mass or weight to move hence more input . think of pendulum, a heavy one takes more force to stop it moving and get it going the other way than a lighter on and essentially in a hover the prop is your pendulum pivot point) I was very skeptical but convinced after trying the gradual moves of the CG forward . The reason i think newbies "think" a plane is more reactive in a tail heavy configuration is they tend to not get the "instant" reaction on the tail surface in a hover and therefore add to much input and end up over controlling the surface and getting behind.

I have purchased about 4 planes from people learning to 3D and always find the CG to far back. Tail heavy is ok but just like anything else to much is not good.
I also find the "slight" nose heavy condition makes for better harriers and rolling harriers as the the nose wants to drop a little and adding throttle to compensate gives a really good constant forward momentum without having to constantly blip the throttle..

There are a lot of people that fly 3D very well with a tail heavy planes. I typically find that I have to have a lot more stick input when flying their plane to get a similiar manouver done and that around center their planes feel mushy. They always say my control surfaces are much more sensitive to them.

There is more than one way to solve the same problem and this is just my experience. I like the plane to react predictably and quickly with less stick input and found that when I moved the CG to "slightly" nose heavy my 3D skills improved exponentially. This may or may not work for you. But if you are struggling its worth a shot to try it.

just my 2c worth.

Kevin






Lets see a video of it then....
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Old 01-09-2009, 05:05 PM
  #366
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


Quote:
A neutral/slightly nose heavy plane is easier for me to 3D with than a tail heavy plane.
As far as torque rolls go, I agree. Try balancing a baseball bat in the palm of your hand with the barrel (heavy) end up. Not all that hard. Now turn the bat over with the handle end up and try to balance it. Airwayman
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Old 01-09-2009, 05:21 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


Quote:
ORIGINAL: airwayman


Quote:
A neutral/slightly nose heavy plane is easier for me to 3D with than a tail heavy plane.
As far as torque rolls go, I agree. Try balancing a baseball bat in the palm of your hand with the barrel (heavy) end up. Not all that hard. Now turn the bat over with the handle end up and try to balance it. Airwayman
your analogy is true however not representative. try holding the baseball bat and let it hang down. it takes more energy to move the bottom end when the heavy end is down. it takes less energy to move it with the lighter end down is down. its also easier to change direction when the lighter end is down.

1st point being is a slightly and I mean ever so slightly nose heavy plane 3D's much better than a plane that is too tail heavy.
2nd point is its easier to learn to hover/torque roll a plane that is slightly nose heavy than a plane that is too tail heavy.
3rd point The main mistake 3D newbies make is to go tooooo tail heavy which also presents problems when landing.

Beyond these 3points CG is adjusted based on pilot preference, comfort and setup.

once again just my experience





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Old 01-09-2009, 07:17 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


1st point being is a slightly and I mean ever so slightly nose heavy plane 3D's much better than a plane that is too tail heavy.
2nd point is its easier to learn to hover/torque roll a plane that is slightly nose heavy than a plane that is too tail heavy.
3rd point The main mistake 3D newbies make is to go tooooo tail heavy which also presents problems when landing.

Beyond these 3points CG is adjusted based on pilot preference, comfort and setup.

once again just my experience






[/quote]

Your as right as one could be . I practice 3D on a ChargerRC foammy . I can hover all day . When I fly it inverted it takes 1/4 down elevator to fly level . It torque rolls much easier this way . I also have an Extreme Flight Yak54e and set it up barely tail heavy . It flew like Crap and landing was difficult . I started putting the lipo further forward , through the cockpit firewall to get just ever slightly nose heavy and what a big difference .
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Old 01-09-2009, 10:00 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

I setup my 3D planes neutral......to fly hands off inverted
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Old 01-10-2009, 04:53 AM
  #370
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

McChiken

I found the same experience with hovering theChargerRC foamy. I had to move the lipo more forward and it become more stable and hovers easier and also takes down elevator inverted. I found a similiar experience on the Hobby Lobby hotrod however it required minimal down inverted.

K
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Old 01-10-2009, 05:51 AM
  #371
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


Quote:
ORIGINAL: AirWizard

I setup my 3D planes neutral......to fly hands off inverted
I agree. I don't mind pushing a little tiny bit inverted but if it's more than that, even if it 3Ds better, I move it back a tad. Ain't worth it. Airwayman
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Old 01-10-2009, 09:18 AM
  #372
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

mine are hands off inverted too, i get better flat spins that way, slightly nose heavy will still get inverted spins with enough throw and some throttle, but upright seems to me, needs to be neautral as you guys say, to get a nice flat upright spin, nose heavy doesnt work as well, so not tail heavy, but not slightly nose heavy either id say, and my buddies are into imac and they even go for hands of inverted, they dont 3d at all, so it seems to be a good place for planes to be all around, landings may get a tad tricker cause the ele is more sensitive than a nose heavy set up, and it may not actually drop down, kinda stays where you put it all the way down to the ground, but once you get it, they are sweet landings too, nice and slow, and smooth
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Old 01-10-2009, 11:38 AM
  #373
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Another tip is to keep all your electronics and batteries on the (horizantal) centerline of the fuse. I even try to locate the fuel tank as close to center as possible.
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Old 01-10-2009, 04:03 PM
  #374
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Quote:
ORIGINAL: MikeEast

Now, I will tell you why I know this.
I stripped a set of Futaba 9151'sm (plastic geared digital) doing a knife edge loop last year, TWICE. I wanted to get more throw for waterfalls so I went from a 1 1/4" servo arm to a 1 1/2" servo arm. When I did I got what I wanted, BIG throws. 60 degrees plus. But when I would do a knife edge loop, at the bottom in the last quarter where you are pouring the coals to the rudder and correcting with the elevator to maintain course (THWACK) the gears popped on one servo. Sounded like a 22 caliber rifle. Fortunately the elevator half totally stripped and went to neutral and I landed with no problem. But I did not understand the problem, replaced the servo gears and lo and behold a few flights later it happened again. Then the light switch went off. I switched to a 333 in oz Titanium geared servo and that was it, not more problems. Of course this was in a 37% Scale plane, but you need to be sure that you take the appropriate actions for your plane.







hi Mike, great thread. I just wanted to get your thoughts on the whole metal gear, plastic gear thing. The one thing I noticed is that even with the metal geared servos there still is a "shear" gear made of plastic. I understand the reason for this and I believe that gear is designed for the maximum torque of the servo, but is there a servo that truly is all metal geared? I have had several servo fail from simply bumping the control surface against something while moving the plane. Strips the plastic gear. That's frustrating.. What are your thoughts on this.
Bruce
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Old 01-10-2009, 04:38 PM
  #375
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

If your bumping it that hard either...
1 cheap servos to start with
2 hitting it real hard and need to repair your plane...
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