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Old 07-04-2006, 05:08 PM
  #26  
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

AeroDave,

I do the exact same thing for a wall.....idle straight and level.....and as I whack the elevator, I give it a quick blip of throttle and make adjustments from there. Like you said...it just "pastes" it there without slamming it there at mach1 and outta control.....although I do like to smash one in every once in awhile just for kicks.


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Old 07-04-2006, 05:12 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Yeah man, me too! Oh, we forgot to mention that even though the enngine is at idle the airplane needs to be moving a bit, not just crawling along.
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Old 07-04-2006, 05:26 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Hey folks,

I just want to be clear on this how-to. Feel free to post how you enter/exit any 3D maneuver. As was stated there are many ways to enter maneuvers so what works for one person may not work for another.

I know myself the listed KE Spin entry does work for me only on 2 of my planes. On the others, to enter it I climb vertical for about 300 feet, then chop throttle and push the nose over , as the plane goes over the top I'll add rudder and power to get it onto it's side then give full down elevator and neutralize the rudder. Now all of this happenes in about 1 or 2 seconds, but it works for me.

Sometimes if I get the timing just a tad bit wrong, I add rudder to bring the tail level, usually the tail is low with the left wing down so I add a bit of left rudder to bring the tail up all the while holding whatever power is needed to keep the rotation around the wing tube

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Old 07-04-2006, 05:30 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


ORIGINAL: Cappy69


I totally agree, the coupling is not linear, so it depends on your speed and angle of attack during this. The only way to somewhat rectify this is to program a multipoint mix....for me, thats too much trouble. I prefer to "feel" the plane during this maneuver and lean slightly on the sticks ever so gently to make corrections. I also like to enter these from what I call a "death slide" ( not sure if that's really what it's called). Basically I start climbing to moderate altittude and set up almost like a stall turn. But instead of staying on the rudder until the nose is pointed back to earth, I give full opposite rudder, a bit of elevator initially to get the plane pointed straight back at me in a knife edge attitude, and start slightly easing on the throttle...but not too much. I want the plane to basically do what looks like a knife-edge elevator. Now, as the plane gets closer to the ground (this is the part that takes some nerve) I start really leaning on the throttle with the rudder still burried just long enough for the plane to stop losing altittude. Once this happens I start easing back off it to maintain a hight alpha KE at a constant altittide across the field. The transition from falling to level flight is where throttle mangement is key. I've almost lost my plane more times doing this than any other maneuver......but it sure looks cool.


Here are 2 vids.....The first one was from November. A bunch of HA knife-edges,etc. At that time I had a smoke system and ALOT of dead weight on the plane.
The second was from 6/4/2006. I thought I would share them with you....but be gentle, this is only my second full season since getting into this awesome hobby. [sm=RAINFRO.gif]


Cap

[link=http://www3.rapidupload.com/file.php?filepath=3224]Video 1[/link] (32 Megs-fast)
[link=http://b06.bestsharing.com/ms00173792/TM10JNMW/ZjiqvMyjOtubZh8j2S48o8LeD7L9qfc/Edge_Vid.wmv]Video 2[/link] (83 megs-fast)
Cap,

It appears the second link is not working
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Old 07-04-2006, 05:31 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


ORIGINAL: Cappy69


I totally agree, the coupling is not linear, so it depends on your speed and angle of attack during this. The only way to somewhat rectify this is to program a multipoint mix....for me, thats too much trouble. I prefer to "feel" the plane during this maneuver and lean slightly on the sticks ever so gently to make corrections. I also like to enter these from what I call a "death slide" ( not sure if that's really what it's called). Basically I start climbing to moderate altittude and set up almost like a stall turn. But instead of staying on the rudder until the nose is pointed back to earth, I give full opposite rudder, a bit of elevator initially to get the plane pointed straight back at me in a knife edge attitude, and start slightly easing on the throttle...but not too much. I want the plane to basically do what looks like a knife-edge elevator. Now, as the plane gets closer to the ground (this is the part that takes some nerve) I start really leaning on the throttle with the rudder still burried just long enough for the plane to stop losing altittude. Once this happens I start easing back off it to maintain a hight alpha KE at a constant altittide across the field. The transition from falling to level flight is where throttle mangement is key. I've almost lost my plane more times doing this than any other maneuver......but it sure looks cool.


Here are 2 vids.....The first one was from November. A bunch of HA knife-edges,etc. At that time I had a smoke system and ALOT of dead weight on the plane.
The second was from 6/4/2006. I thought I would share them with you....but be gentle, this is only my second full season since getting into this awesome hobby. [sm=RAINFRO.gif]


Cap

[link=http://www3.rapidupload.com/file.php?filepath=3224]Video 1[/link] (32 Megs-fast)
[link=http://b06.bestsharing.com/ms00173792/TM10JNMW/ZjiqvMyjOtubZh8j2S48o8LeD7L9qfc/Edge_Vid.wmv]Video 2[/link] (83 megs-fast)

Cap,

the second link appears to be broken. I get the link to the video but it has an issue playing it
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Old 07-04-2006, 06:37 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Yeah Dave, I am stuck at work all this week so I cant fly, sure wish I could join you guys out there!!! Since I cant fly I spend my slack time talking about flying here.... any port in a storm ya know![8D]

I'm just really starting to get pretty good at inverted harriers. Most of the big improvement there is a new airplane. I am now flying a 23 pound 35% Von Extra 260 with a BME 110. It is a very solid airframe for 3D. I thought that my BME Ultimate 3D'ed well until I got my Extra. This plane is awsome.

Anyway, I have found that the inverted harrier require a lot of care to execute safely at low altitude. As you mentioned you really have to be "on" with the rudder and make the right corrections at the right time. One thing that has helped me to steer inverted in high alpha is really focusing on keeping the wings as level as possible at all times when I am steering. It easy to lose focus and get behind the airplane while turning and let the plane get away from you and have to bail out. Especially when you are making really short turns.


A maneuver that I dont know what to call but is REALLY impressive and pretty risky if you perform it down low goes like this.
1. Fly across the field downwind about 5-10 high'. .
2. Pull sharply into a wall and hammer the throttle to climb vertically to an altitude of about 50-75'.
3. Chop the throttle and sharply input down elevator(3D rates) and waterfall the plane over 3/4 of a revolution into an inverted harrier.
4. When you settle into the harrier you will have lost about 30-50' of altitude and be sitting in an inverted harrier.
5. From that point I like to start a rolling harrier of some sort or just glide in close and push into a low hover.
Lowest I have actually exited this maneuver is about 20'. It is a real butt puckering experience, and if your buddies dont start whooping behind you when they see it they dont have a pulse.

Its a really cool maneuver and I have seen lots of guys doing it but I have yet to hear it formally named.


Also, you are right about learning to use rudder. I fly Masters pattern and my pattern skill have definitely helped me to have smoother, more graceful rudder control.

We took most of these Sunday afternoon.[8D]
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Old 07-04-2006, 07:28 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Mike,
That forward flip thing you described is like my favorite move!!!! i use it as kind of a HA turnaround. Fly across, wall, stop, flip and off in inverted harrrier. One thing I've found that REALLY helps with this is to only blip the throttle and let the rotation happen at idle. Not only is it slower and more dramatic, but the rotation is much tighter. Depending on the airframe, it can be almost a pivot. Here's a cool variation: I call it the Band Saw. Vertical climb, throttle back and stop. Blip while giving full down and fall straight down an inverted elevator. Here's what makes it work: I have 2 idles set on my trans. One for stall turns, etc. one for landing. I hit the high idle on the vertical climb. It gives just enough throttle to keep the nose up. Of course, you have to manage power/rudder to keep it lined up. It really looks great.
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Old 07-04-2006, 07:45 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Elevator

I completely forgot about this most basic 3D maneuver. Essentially its a harrier, but you just allow the airplane to siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiink down as low as you dare.

Setup

3D rates

1. Drop the throttle to idle and sharply apply full up elevator and hold it. The plane will start to sink rapidly in a slightly level to nose high attitude.
2. As the plane descends, gradually increase the throttle jut enough to control the descent rate.
3. When you get down low simply let off of the elevator 1st and the ease in the throttle and fly away, or whatever.

If you dare[8D] you can land from an elevator. I have done it a million times with my 37% Ultimate but I will never do it with my Extra, Im afraid that the Graphtek Carbon Fiber gear won't holdup. All you do is let it sink vertically and ease in the throttle so that descent rate slows to all but a stop. The plane will be very slowly moving forward.
If you hit it just right you wont roll at all and the plane will just sit. It takes a lot of balls and practice to do it because if you screw up you can break your airplane, or at bare minimum break the prop and bend the landing gear. Dont ask me how I know that.

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19AARRIGChQ]Elevator Video[/link]
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Old 07-04-2006, 08:17 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


ORIGINAL: bubbagates

Cap,

the second link appears to be broken. I get the link to the video but it has an issue playing it
Just tried it....seems fine clicking and playing it directly, save as, and right clicking...save as. Are you sure Explorer isn't intercepting it with that info bar thing saying it prevented the dowload, and to click the bar to download file?

Cap
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Old 07-04-2006, 08:26 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Inverted harriers just scare the crap out of me. I can do them on the sim ok....but take it to the field.....unless I"m like 20 mistakes high I don't even attempt them. . For some reason the link from my brain to my hands get severed. [:@]

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Old 07-04-2006, 08:54 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Got it. the link was all screwed up but I corrected the spaces in it
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Old 07-04-2006, 09:29 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Mike,

the WALL WATERFALL maneuver is pretty cool. The first time I did this one for some friends, they really freaked..... Pushing it to the limits, the lowest I ever got was to bump the top of the rudder at 3/4 of the way through the waterfall and still flew out of it.... one of my favorite tricks
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Old 07-04-2006, 09:53 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

As Bill said, its good to know different ways to get in and out of these moves. Often I will enter an elevator from an upright or inverted harrier. On most of my planes, once I get into the harrier I'm constantly making changes to the elevator and power to achieve the desired result. What I'm saying is I don't need to hold full up to keep it in the harrier. That means I can use the elevator control as a tool to enter the elevator from a harrier. So flying along in a harrier, let's say upright, pull the nose up to a steep angle and don't add any more throttle, or reduce it if it wants to climb. If you're already at full up, you can use a bit of power to get the nose up. The airplane will slow even more and begin to sink. From there just balance with power to control descent ,while maintaining level wings and heading with ailerons and rudder. Here's a tip.....If you're having trouble getting your harriers low, use this method to lose altitude. In other words, when you want to descend in a harrier, pull the nose up. That will slow forward motion and allow descent control with the throttle.
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Old 07-04-2006, 09:56 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Have we covered the snap roll while in knife edge?

1. get a good knife edge going
2. while flying in a knife edge attitude perform a snap roll
3. at the end of the snap roll continue flying knife edge

Simple but cool to do.

A nice combo I enjoy:

1. from take off go straight into a rolling harrier
2. while in the rolling harrier turn back down field and fly the harrier back across the field
3. after you have come back across the field enter into a harrier and then hover
4. torque roll it up for a bit and enter next sequence.

I also enjoy the pushes at or after any 3D sequence. I have noticed certain planes enjoy tumbles and blenders better than others.

The 260 is just one sweet flying plane. I have flown mainly the WH 260 at 23.5lbs with a DA 100 and it is awesome. It can be as precise as you want it to be or become a 3D machine.
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Old 07-05-2006, 05:23 AM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

BUBBAGATES
way to go, this could be a forum all on it's own,it's already help me out and thanks to
MIKE EAST for his video of the knife edge spin that may have got this started.
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Old 07-05-2006, 06:22 AM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers


ORIGINAL: closetguy

BUBBAGATES
way to go, this could be a forum all on it's own,it's already help me out and thanks to
MIKE EAST for his video of the knife edge spin that may have got this started.

Thanks,

Like I mentioned in the very first post. I saw a ton of questions lately, all asking the best way to do this and that and felt having it all in one spot would be much easier.

Mike has contributed a ton of info. I'm looking at letting this run a couple of weeks, then start pulling posts together and make PDF files out of them, sort of a 3D how-to. Each maneuver description will have the customary "provided by" added to it and all of this will be compiled together, most likely with each maneuver having it's own heading.

So, with that being said, come on folks, tell us how you do it. It does not matter, just so long as you can reproduce it. Sometimes it might be best to tell us what plane you are doing it with. I have found certain planes need different entries into the same maneuver so knowing which plane will help.

If someone wants to do videos, both real time and sim based, that would also be cool
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Old 07-05-2006, 08:26 AM
  #42  
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Yep, the only reason Im throwing it out there is because it appeared you guys were hesitant. I agree, put your techniques out there. I have a LOT to learn to, I'm hoping to pick up some tips.

PS, that was not me that offered up the video, it was someone else
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Old 07-05-2006, 04:24 PM
  #43  
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

I had the vids laying around.....so I threw them out there . Yeah...any hints, tips, techniques and suggestions are all welcome to me. When I grow up....I want to be just like_____(fill in the blank with favorite pilot). . Actually at 38, I'm just a kid at heart.....to bad I can't fly like alot of the younger generation can these days ....some of them are just amazing.


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Old 07-06-2006, 09:40 AM
  #44  
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Good thread Bubbagates......

Ive been flying a long time... (30 + years now), with lots of years flying pattern and stuff. And one important thing Ive learned is you can always learn something new

Entry, manuver, and exit/transition are often different with different aircraft and different pilots. It helps to get a fresh perspective.

Bob
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Old 07-06-2006, 09:51 AM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Great thread... i've already got a Word Document going, copying all the 'bits' of information here. Trying everything on the foamy first, then see if we can really break stuff....

keep 'em coming!
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Old 07-06-2006, 11:40 AM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Hi All,

Thanks for the 3d flying how to's, really usefull! I would like to add, that in my case, (for learning to do stuff with my heli) it has worked and helped a lot to pracitce the bail out, or at least go through it mentally. That way when you are trying new stuff your probabilities of giving mother earth a big Smuack with your ship gets minimized by the fact that you know how to recover form any situation and any position. Again, I might be wrong with this trying to put it for 3d airplanes, but sure has helped me a lot with my airplanes and helis (not that I have many but it sounded nice!)

Thanks for this thread!! really helpfull and very usefull!

Best regards

Enrico
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Old 07-07-2006, 01:41 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Enrico,
I think you're right. In fact, much can be learned from the heli perspective when developing fixed wing 3D skills. Being aware of the types of moves available as well as the heli pilot perspective causes the fixed wing pilot to think outside the box. The guy I fly with most is a serious heli 3D guy and I steal stuff from him all the time. More most folks I think 2 concepts come to the fore: Bailouts and orientations. You did a great job of describing the escape plan of bailouts. Heli guys often practice the bailouts first, to give them confidence in working on a new move. The second concept, that of orientations, is something we all deal with but we just don't think of it like heli guys. They look at different orientations as separate steps to master before moving on to the next level. In fact, demonstration of mastery of different orientations often groups pilots into classes for competition. Some of these orientations don't apply to us but the concept does. How many times have you been hovering and let the nose get away from you so you're looking at the belly and then you gave the wrong rudder input? If we would look at belly in hovering as an orientation to master, we could zero in on that skill and be closer to consistent torque rolling much faster. Same thing goes for rudder input in an inverted harrier. If inverted harrier scares you, isolate the different orientations involved, tail in/nose in and master them as specific, different skills. Then you'll be able to move on with confidence.

I feel each 3D move is made up of a subset of basic skills. If we isolate and perfect those skills one at a time, progress toward our goal is quicker and much less scary.

Dave
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Old 07-07-2006, 01:44 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Dave,

I must say, that was very well put....
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Old 07-07-2006, 01:46 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Enrico,
I think you're right. In fact, much can be learned from the heli perspective when developing fixed wing 3D skills. Being aware of the types of moves available as well as the heli pilot perspective causes the fixed wing pilot to think outside the box. The guy I fly with most is a serious heli 3D guy and I steal stuff from him all the time. For most folks I think 2 concepts come to the fore: Bailouts and orientations. You did a great job of describing the escape plan of bailouts. Heli guys often practice the bailouts first, to give them confidence in working on a new move. The second concept, that of orientations, is something we all deal with but we just don't think of it like heli guys. They look at different orientations as separate steps to master before moving on to the next level. In fact, demonstration of mastery of different orientations often groups pilots into classes for competition. Some of these orientations don't apply to us but the concept does. How many times have you been hovering and let the nose get away from you so you're looking at the belly and then you gave the wrong rudder input? If we would look at belly in hovering as an orientation to master, we could zero in on that skill and be closer to consistent torque rolling much faster. Same thing goes for rudder input in an inverted harrier. If inverted harrier scares you, isolate the different orientations involved, tail in/nose in and master them as specific, different skills. Then you'll be able to move on with confidence.

I feel each 3D move is made up of a subset of basic skills. If we isolate and perfect those skills one at a time, progress toward our goal is quicker and much less scary.

Dave
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Old 07-11-2006, 12:05 PM
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Default RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

anyone have anything new
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