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Steering rolling harriers

Old 10-13-2006, 05:49 PM
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bahamadude
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Default Steering rolling harriers

What control do i use to steer rolling harriers ?

When i do them the planes goes around in circles. I want to control the plane in a straight line and turn when i am ready. How to ?


Any help ?







Old 10-13-2006, 05:58 PM
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buildflycrash
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

Is all in the timing of your inputs, if you want to go straight you got to input "up Only". That is "up" for the part of the roll your on. If your inverted - push. if your KE - then only rudder. when you come back to upright - elevator pull -only. Sounds easy, I can't do it well at all . We just got to burn lots of fuel.
Old 10-13-2006, 05:59 PM
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whaturi
 
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

the elevator is the more powerful than the rudder. i find steering very easy wit hthe elevator. when you are rolling, you will be in knife edge for brief moments, and hopefully already have rudder input to hold the nose up. at that moment, elevatoer input in the correct direction will steer the plane. so if you use up elevator to move the plane to the right, the next time the plane is in knife edge, you will use down to continue, since the plane is facing a new direction. that is how i do it. i think that the BEST way to do it is to use all your inputs to steer at the right moment by advancing or retarding them. that would give you the cleanest rolls. once you start steering them, you'll find it hard to do anything else. it feels good.
Old 10-13-2006, 07:45 PM
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rajul
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

Its all in the timing. I use both rudder and elevator to steer. Practice, practice, practice......
Old 10-14-2006, 03:58 AM
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bahamadude
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

when i was learning inveted flight i thought that was tough. This is really tough.
I want to put it where i want it to go.
Can you give a more step bystep approach maybe (like building blocks) ?
Old 10-14-2006, 05:31 AM
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whaturi
 
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

1: get a simulator
2: quit your job

that is the secret to perfect rollers.
Old 10-14-2006, 09:00 AM
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bahamadude
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

Um on quitting on job... am very close to doing that . I am tired of thinking for ppl no more financial

slavery ...i got a way out how bout u ?
Old 10-14-2006, 09:10 AM
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exeter_acres
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers


ORIGINAL: bahamadude

What control do i use to steer rolling harriers ?



All of them
Old 10-14-2006, 09:26 AM
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George E.
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

Smooth, controlled rolling harriers are soooo tough to master you really need a simulator. To get them smooth you really have to blend the inputs together. In a perfect world with NO WIND you'd have up elevator only when upright etc. if you wanted to go straight, but it really doesn't work out that way once you throw some wind into the mix.

Just practice a ton on the simulator and your thumbs will eventually figure it out but your brain never will grasp it fully
Old 10-14-2006, 11:28 AM
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whaturi
 
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

yeah, leave the thinking out. it helps zero.
Old 10-14-2006, 11:31 AM
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rajul
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

What Tx mode are you flying?
Old 10-14-2006, 02:05 PM
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

These are one of the hardest maneuvers to do right IMO. Just try to go straight once, it takes lots of practice but I have started to get the hang of it this summer. The sim is your best bet, all winter long, and then go out to the field in spring and show 'em how it's done.
Old 10-14-2006, 10:01 PM
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MikeEast
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

Its true, the simulator is the Key. I once got Mark Leseburg (king of rolling maneuvers) to tell me in a forum how he got so good at it. He said at first he just sat with his transmitter in hand and developed muscle memory. Roll right and hold.... left rudder, down elevator, right rudder, up elevator. Do it over and over and over and over until you can sit in front of the TV and do it for 30 minutes without thinking about it.

Then get on the sim and start practicing. At first it will look like crap, you will want to roll with the nose down low and everytime you make a mistake and drop the nose a little the roll rate will pick up and get hard to control.

Usually everyone rolls better one way or the other. I roll better to the right and with the plane traveling from my left to my right. Start in whatever direction is comfortable and its easier for most people to roll out and not in. That is, if your circle is counter clockwise you will roll right, if its clockwise you will roll left. Start out with whats easiest just to get the hang of it.

Once you learn the muscle memory part just start working on it. Left, Down, Right, Up. Watch the plane and feel what the plane is doing. Try to keep the nose up at a 45 degree angle at all times like it has a rod passing in the spinner and out of the rudder. Really focus on keeping that angle constant and dont so much worry about what dierction its going. You need to get the general idea of how to harrier roll before you start steering.

Once you can harrier roll comfortably, you just use the vertical control surface to steer. It sounds hard and by golly it is hard.. BUT eventually your brain figures it out and you can really start to see what the plane is doing. There will come a time after much practice and I am talking maybe months,,, or a YEAR or practing a few times a week or more on the sim and for real, that you will be able to clearly see what the plane is doing and where its going. Once you get to that point you simply correct your timing of elevator and rudder input to steer, use the throttle to control altitude and the ailerons to maintain roll....

Circles are really easy, its going in a straight line that is TOUGH. It took me 3 times as long to figure out how to go in a straight line... Once again, now that I can do it it is easy but it was almost impossible to get the hang of. But once you got it, you got it.

The really funny part, and I bet most guys will agree... once you get really comfortable with rolling harriers and you can steer them where you want, DONT EVER start thinking about what you are doing.. It will totally confuse you... Its just like riding a bike, you are constantly making corrections but dont dare ask HOW you do it... You just do it.

Its really about sheer determination, there are no shortcuts.
Old 10-16-2006, 10:06 AM
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VinceY
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

That's true. You have to master the pattern first. That is always the same- right rudder, down elevator, left rudder, up elevator for left rolls. Backwards for right rolls. The only thing that varies is the timing of the imputs and the amount of imput. If you can't sit and repeat that pattern with your transmitter, your not ready. Hovering or torque rolls require quick, reactive, random imputs that can't be practiced without a sim or an airplane in the air. You can practice the pattern for rolling harriers anywhere, anytime. Then it is just a matter of timing that pattern to your plane.
Old 10-16-2006, 12:16 PM
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

Is there a short video on how this maneuver is done? I need to see it 1st, then try to emulate. tx
Old 10-16-2006, 12:59 PM
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

At the top of the 3D forum there is a thread called How to do 3D maneuvers.

Within that thread go look for the rolling harrier explaination. There is a short video I made from Aerofly Pro Deluxe.
Old 10-17-2006, 09:36 AM
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

I use elevator also to turn,if you pull up or push down when the wing is at or near 45 degrees bank, the plane will turn some. The elevator will function as a rudder since its near knife edge position.(its vertical enough to act as rudder)I do it this way because its easy to "key" on the wing position and make changes in timing as needed. I only turn when its path needs correction,otherwise it travels fairly straight,I can do circles either way using this method,next I would love to be able to stop rolling one direction and switch to the other mid-circil but dont even try yet. One other important thing,I do RH's slow,using low rates on aileron. At first that helps a lot,gives you time to put it all together and looks gracefull IMO,plus if you ever have the testosterone to get it DOD,slow is the way to go-again-IMO.
Old 10-18-2006, 10:05 AM
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VinceY
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

Alot of planes turn into the wing with the down aileron. A little aileron differential will make some planes easier to keep straight.
Old 10-18-2006, 10:29 AM
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

That's called adverse yaw. The down aileron has more drag than the up, especially in high angle of pitch, which causes the rolling harriers to turn away from the direction of roll. But wouldn't any differential be canceled out in a rolling harrier since it would be positive upright and negative inverted? If you're rolling right and have less down on the left aileron and more up on the right, then when it goes inverted, it will have more down on the inside aileron and less on the outside, thus canceling out the gain from the previous half cycle.
Old 10-18-2006, 01:16 PM
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MikeEast
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers


ORIGINAL: ArCeeFlyer

That's called adverse yaw. The down aileron has more drag than the up, especially in high angle of pitch, which causes the rolling harriers to turn away from the direction of roll. But wouldn't any differential be canceled out in a rolling harrier since it would be positive upright and negative inverted? If you're rolling right and have less down on the left aileron and more up on the right, then when it goes inverted, it will have more down on the inside aileron and less on the outside, thus canceling out the gain from the previous half cycle.

[X(] Cool[8D],,, I wonder if this really has been proven?
Old 10-18-2006, 02:12 PM
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

Are you referring to whether differential makes any difference? It would be interesting to prove it out. I have a foamy Radix 3D that does rolling circles simply by holding the aileron stick to one side. No other inputs needed even to maintain altitude (must be how the c.g. is located). Due to adverse yaw effects it circles left on right rolls and circles right on left rolls. I could put in some differential and see if it acts any differently.
Old 10-18-2006, 02:28 PM
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

Yeah, I am just wondering if differential would really help? On most of the planes I have ever flown, flying RH in a straight line is a lot harder than a circle. The circle just naturally happens and straight lines require a little more thought at first. I always assumed that it was becuase we naturally start the inputs a little early. Most everyone I know that flies 3D has the same issue with this in the beginning.
Old 10-18-2006, 02:35 PM
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

Guys i have been practicing this manuever for a year. I can do it all day on aero fly pro but when I do it at the field my planes rolls way too fast. I have my rate on 3D in both the aero fly and the real plane. I referring to rolling harrier circles. WHAT THE SECRET? How do I stop it from rolling so fast.
Old 10-18-2006, 02:42 PM
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

Get the nose up higher. You have to get it up into a stalled attitude. If the angle of attack is too low and the wing is still flying the ailerons are too effective and the roll rate is going to be faster. You want to get to the point where pretty much the only thing effecting the ailerons is the prop wash. You MIGHT have too much aileron throw, but usually the problem is trying to do it with the nose too low.

Some people do start out with low rate ailerons and doing more of a rolling circle than a rolling harrier circle to get the feel for using rudder, elevator and ailerons. As you progress and get to where you have better control just start pulling the nose up and flying forward more slowly. As you do you will see that the ailerons will become less effective and you will NEED more aileron throw to take full advantage of the prop wash to keep the plane rolling. At least that has been my experience.
Old 10-18-2006, 03:13 PM
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Default RE: Steering rolling harriers

ORIGINAL: MikeEast

Yeah, I am just wondering if differential would really help? On most of the planes I have ever flown, flying RH in a straight line is a lot harder than a circle. The circle just naturally happens and straight lines require a little more thought at first. I always assumed that it was becuase we naturally start the inputs a little early. Most everyone I know that flies 3D has the same issue with this in the beginning.
Now that I think about it, that seems logical. The adverse yaw probably doesn't affect rolling harriers where the prop wash is about all that is rolling it. It would be when the wings are actually flying like in rolling circles. Here is some video I had of my Radix 3D doing rolling circles. What's cool is I'm only using full aileron control. A couple of times I had to intervene with other controls to keep from coming into the pits. I titled it wrong. I meant to put "adverse yaw effect".

[link=http://www.yorkrc.com/videos/misc/Radix3D_1.wmv]Radix 3D rolling circles[/link]

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