3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
02-05-2008, 08:19 AM
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RE: 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
ORIGINAL: JUGFLIER
Octane,
i have to really pity those people who blindly defend those crappy evolution engines. I rescently had a really bad run in with Horizon over one a these and after threats of a lawsuit and action from the State Attorney General, they gladly warrantied mine after taking a year and a half to do it. ( It was under warranty.) I have personal experience with this engine, The ignitions are crap and have been changes at least two times in two years. The bearings are no good, the overall design is bad. The specs on these engines are not accurate, but in truth are deceptive. Mine never swung the prop it was rated for and never turned the rpm.
ORIGINAL: octanehuffer
Jim, I am in no way stirred about anything. Not even a little. But to compare the engines and look for realistic numbers one can only look at the numbers. We dont have engine dynos so how do you expect to have a logical debate without some sort of "speculation". If you have engine specs for hp rating and prop rpm's by all means let us know! The whole post is based on the fact of speculation. More displacement does NOT mean more power. If you want to determine the power out put of these ingines you will have to buy them and test. I dont disagree with you that its a bad engine at all. I am sure it will start and fly just fine, but when I give you factual data relitive to the engines in question, I feel it fits the purpose of your thread. I guess I am not quite sure what you want to hear. If you wanted to debate on these engines based on price and weight you bought the right one.
Adam
Jim, I am in no way stirred about anything. Not even a little. But to compare the engines and look for realistic numbers one can only look at the numbers. We dont have engine dynos so how do you expect to have a logical debate without some sort of "speculation". If you have engine specs for hp rating and prop rpm's by all means let us know! The whole post is based on the fact of speculation. More displacement does NOT mean more power. If you want to determine the power out put of these ingines you will have to buy them and test. I dont disagree with you that its a bad engine at all. I am sure it will start and fly just fine, but when I give you factual data relitive to the engines in question, I feel it fits the purpose of your thread. I guess I am not quite sure what you want to hear. If you wanted to debate on these engines based on price and weight you bought the right one.
Adam
Octane,
i have to really pity those people who blindly defend those crappy evolution engines. I rescently had a really bad run in with Horizon over one a these and after threats of a lawsuit and action from the State Attorney General, they gladly warrantied mine after taking a year and a half to do it. ( It was under warranty.) I have personal experience with this engine, The ignitions are crap and have been changes at least two times in two years. The bearings are no good, the overall design is bad. The specs on these engines are not accurate, but in truth are deceptive. Mine never swung the prop it was rated for and never turned the rpm.
That being said, I should point out that two of the three engines we're talking about are either made or largely made in China. I think it's important that we establish a starting point for this.
First, we go this route to save money, and I for one understand that I might or might not get a great engine. But for my purposes, the 3mm TOC 53cc OR the Evolution would serve me nicely. Dealer / factory support are important issues here precisely because these are not high-end engines, and a big part of why I actually chose the 3mm TOC 53cc over the Evo was because of other stories I'd heard like JUGFLIER's experiences. And of course the price was substantially lower as well. Still, for as many of these as are out there, there isn't a lot of information nor are there too many experiences related, and I thought it might be productive for ALL of us if we could have a thread where folks can relate them to us.
So, understanding that we as modelers sometimes buy the Chinese engines, maybe JUGFLIER could elaborate on the bearing issues he mentioned. I'd be interested in hearing about them. I had looked for the bearing specs on the EVOs when I was looking at them and could not find them, I found the bearing specs on the TOCs and felt that they were well-supported using 3 ball-bearings in the engine and two needle bearings. To me, that covers running stresses and thrust movement potential. Of course, that's all theoretical right now, and I'm running on only others experiences until I get mine running and see for myself.
What happened with your bearings, JUGFLIER? I'm curious about the EVO bearings, as I wasn't able to find any specs when I looked (doesn't mean they are not out there, just means I haven't found them yet) for them.
Jim
02-05-2008, 08:38 AM
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RE: 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
As a separate post, I just wanted to relate why I picked the 3mm TOC 53cc in the end. Funny thing about it was that I might not have found out about them or Wild Hare if Hangar 9 had not backordered their 27%Extra 260 until at least mid-Feb......One of the guys in another forum suggested that I check out Wild Hare RC.com and I went to look at their stuff. Their Extra 28% was WAY beyond anything else I'd seen and of course the colors just knocked me out. The Edge 540T V2 was just as good and the same with the colors. I read a fair amount of the support forum and realized that people REALLY like these planes, and then I called Tom at Wild Hare, who mentioned his combo offer that included the 3mm TOC 53cc and a complete hardware package. I started to research the engines, and after reading many folks who simply couldn't say enough about the support Wild Hare provides, I realized that I had found a discounted price on a decent-sized gasser engine that had quality support. My big concern was the bearings (If the bearings ain't good, ain't NOTHIN' gonna be too good about it!), and when I saw the specs I also saw the electronic igniton and the servo-choke capability. These are the criteria I based my decision on. I'm a motor-head anyway, and as long as the engine is basically sound I can do the rest. To be honest, I could make a TOC fly right past a DA50 if I wanted to modify it the way I used to modify Motorcycles and chainsaws and snowmobiles. There's enough there to make it happen. But I've got plane plans that don't include machine shops (hopefully), I'm looking for dependability and support.
In the end, I cancelled my order for the H-9 Extra and ordered my combo from Wild Hare RC. Now comes the week of agony, waiting for the brown truck to arrive....
Jim
In the end, I cancelled my order for the H-9 Extra and ordered my combo from Wild Hare RC. Now comes the week of agony, waiting for the brown truck to arrive....
Jim
02-05-2008, 09:49 AM
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RE: 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
Jim,
Sorry if i sound too defensive. There is a thread in the gas engines forum chronicling my experience with Evolution and Horizon service. In that thread when i posted it i was attacked by several of these Evolution lovers and they turned the thread into kaos and got it locked down. After i did some research on the people who attacked me i found out they were all PAID hacks here to watch out for horizon's interests. If you spensd a little time in some of these forums you will begin to find that there are groups of folks who stick together and go into forums and they they PUSH products that they actually recieve at discounts or for free. Keep up with the names, it's the same people all the time.
By the way, just do a search on the gas engine forums for Evolution Gas motors and the threads will tell the tale, 3 to 1 people have had trouble or think they are just plain junk.
Sorry if i sound too defensive. There is a thread in the gas engines forum chronicling my experience with Evolution and Horizon service. In that thread when i posted it i was attacked by several of these Evolution lovers and they turned the thread into kaos and got it locked down. After i did some research on the people who attacked me i found out they were all PAID hacks here to watch out for horizon's interests. If you spensd a little time in some of these forums you will begin to find that there are groups of folks who stick together and go into forums and they they PUSH products that they actually recieve at discounts or for free. Keep up with the names, it's the same people all the time.
By the way, just do a search on the gas engine forums for Evolution Gas motors and the threads will tell the tale, 3 to 1 people have had trouble or think they are just plain junk.
02-05-2008, 10:21 AM
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RE: 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
Funny how experiences differ....when I first bought my EVO, I couldnt find any info..good or bad and this was last summer....mine runs great so far....They have been on the market for awile too...
I would like to try the TOC53 too....
I would like to try the TOC53 too....
02-05-2008, 10:33 AM
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RE: 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
ORIGINAL: JUGFLIER
Jim,
Sorry if i sound too defensive. There is a thread in the gas engines forum chronicling my experience with Evolution and Horizon service. In that thread when i posted it i was attacked by several of these Evolution lovers and they turned the thread into kaos and got it locked down. After i did some research on the people who attacked me i found out they were all PAID hacks here to watch out for horizon's interests. If you spensd a little time in some of these forums you will begin to find that there are groups of folks who stick together and go into forums and they they PUSH products that they actually recieve at discounts or for free. Keep up with the names, it's the same people all the time.
By the way, just do a search on the gas engine forums for Evolution Gas motors and the threads will tell the tale, 3 to 1 people have had trouble or think they are just plain junk.
Jim,
Sorry if i sound too defensive. There is a thread in the gas engines forum chronicling my experience with Evolution and Horizon service. In that thread when i posted it i was attacked by several of these Evolution lovers and they turned the thread into kaos and got it locked down. After i did some research on the people who attacked me i found out they were all PAID hacks here to watch out for horizon's interests. If you spensd a little time in some of these forums you will begin to find that there are groups of folks who stick together and go into forums and they they PUSH products that they actually recieve at discounts or for free. Keep up with the names, it's the same people all the time.
By the way, just do a search on the gas engine forums for Evolution Gas motors and the threads will tell the tale, 3 to 1 people have had trouble or think they are just plain junk.
As for me, I'm interested in MY interests. The sharks in here know me, know I have my own teeth.... and we mostly avoid the clashes.
So, if you want to rail on about how horrible you think Horizon is, please go and do so in your own thread. Threads are easy to start. But, as you can see by what has happened here, they're hard to keep going.
If you'd like to join in here and help get this thread back on track, then you might tell us about your referred-to Evolution's BEARINGS and the problems you found with them. Also, what were the circumstances wherein your electronic ignitions bit the dust? Where they branded? What brand?
3 to 1? I'm looking forward to hearing the specifics about those engines too, if any of those folks are tuning in. Same with all 3 of these.
Remember, engines and support experiences for 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58 is what we're looking for here. Details, specifics, not venting.
Thanks!
Jim
02-05-2008, 10:36 AM
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02-05-2008, 11:19 AM
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RE: 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
Remember, engines and support experiences for 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58 is what we're looking for here. Details, specifics, not venting.
Thats what i have tried to do. i have given you the info to do your own research. Sorry if you feel i have hijacked your thread. BTW, i don't hate Horizon, i am looking to buy either the Hanger 9 35% Extra 260 or the 33% Sukhoi within a month or so, and yes it will have a DA on the front. But for those who come in and sing the praises of Evolution, people need to know the other side of the coin.
I'm outta here, Enjoy
Curtis.
02-05-2008, 05:09 PM
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RE: 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
ORIGINAL: JUGFLIER
Thats what i have tried to do. i have given you the info to do your own research. Sorry if you feel i have hijacked your thread. BTW, i don't hate Horizon, i am looking to buy either the Hanger 9 35% Extra 260 or the 33% Sukhoi within a month or so, and yes it will have a DA on the front. But for those who come in and sing the praises of Evolution, people need to know the other side of the coin.
I'm outta here, Enjoy
Curtis.
Remember, engines and support experiences for 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58 is what we're looking for here. Details, specifics, not venting.
Thats what i have tried to do. i have given you the info to do your own research. Sorry if you feel i have hijacked your thread. BTW, i don't hate Horizon, i am looking to buy either the Hanger 9 35% Extra 260 or the 33% Sukhoi within a month or so, and yes it will have a DA on the front. But for those who come in and sing the praises of Evolution, people need to know the other side of the coin.
I'm outta here, Enjoy
Curtis.
Soooo...... anybody got anything? Saaaaay, maybe something to do with :
"3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58"
or something like that? Y'know, whatever ya got... Whatcha flying, what's the engine, what's it turning, any issues, how's the support....somethin' like that?
****SIGH****
J
02-05-2008, 06:51 PM
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RE: 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
I found a review if you havnt seen it yet, http://tech.flygsw.org/3mm_review.htm of the 53....
Well my EVO 45 is on an Extreme flight Yak 74'' and I'm running 21x8 TBM prop at 7400rpm and around 1300 low.....according to my tach....40-1 oil mix....but doesnt burn all the oil (leaves some under the plane) with 85 gasoline so im switching to 88....and mabe 50-1...Flyin again Thursday because weather is getting better....Weight of the plane is now 12 pounds or under...been lightining it-up for the past few days....was at 12 pounds 8 ounces and flew really lite....
Well my EVO 45 is on an Extreme flight Yak 74'' and I'm running 21x8 TBM prop at 7400rpm and around 1300 low.....according to my tach....40-1 oil mix....but doesnt burn all the oil (leaves some under the plane) with 85 gasoline so im switching to 88....and mabe 50-1...Flyin again Thursday because weather is getting better....Weight of the plane is now 12 pounds or under...been lightining it-up for the past few days....was at 12 pounds 8 ounces and flew really lite....
02-05-2008, 07:22 PM
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RE: 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
Wow. If it flies my 17lb Yak really well, I bet the 73" one will explode out of a hover. I am also on the fence of puttin another Evolution 45 on the QQ 73". You should try a 21x8x3 3 blade prop and bring your torque curve into the sweet spot of 6800-7000.
Jim, the manufacturer of the Evolution gas engines is MVVS.
IIRC the bearing issue was a lack of lube thru the crankshaft to feed a bearing. The bearings in the Evolution are good quality, just like the rest of it. It just need some teething. No different than any other company. The DA 85 just went through its fair share of problems on the first 450 or so made.
Adam
Jim, the manufacturer of the Evolution gas engines is MVVS.
IIRC the bearing issue was a lack of lube thru the crankshaft to feed a bearing. The bearings in the Evolution are good quality, just like the rest of it. It just need some teething. No different than any other company. The DA 85 just went through its fair share of problems on the first 450 or so made.
Adam
02-05-2008, 07:31 PM
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RE: 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
http://www.mvvs.nl/
Scroll down to "about MVVS" and read about them. I did not know MVVS is an acronym. Pretty cool meaning.
Also be sure to scroll to "gas engines" to read all about the ratings for the gas needed. Also has very informative spec on the casting and manufacturing of the crankcases from a company called MSR. Their website is in a language I cant understand, but it has some very good pics about the castings and finishing process for MVVS.
Scroll down to "about MVVS" and read about them. I did not know MVVS is an acronym. Pretty cool meaning.
Also be sure to scroll to "gas engines" to read all about the ratings for the gas needed. Also has very informative spec on the casting and manufacturing of the crankcases from a company called MSR. Their website is in a language I cant understand, but it has some very good pics about the castings and finishing process for MVVS.
02-05-2008, 08:22 PM
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RE: 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
I just mocked up the plane afer some upgrades...11 pounds 7.4 ounces on a digital scale..
And yah, this plane has good power....actually this combo is perfect......
Took off the standoffs..mounted engine straight to the firewall and cut holes in firewall then covered in clear ultracote for strenth...changed to carbon fiber linkages and landin gear..10 ounce tank..gets 25 minutes flights....awesome....
And yah, this plane has good power....actually this combo is perfect......
Took off the standoffs..mounted engine straight to the firewall and cut holes in firewall then covered in clear ultracote for strenth...changed to carbon fiber linkages and landin gear..10 ounce tank..gets 25 minutes flights....awesome....
02-05-2008, 08:32 PM
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RE: 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
FLYMIKE,
Thank you for the review link! The reviewer's findings were pretty close to my estimates, maybe even a little better. He was pretty thorough, and mostly I was impressed by the fact that his high points seem to be the same ones I have..such as liking the bearings and the two rings. I saved the link on my favorites. Some good detective work there, Thank You! I've been looking for something like that.
Now, your EVO 45...that's still pretty new, isn't it? If it is still within the first few gallons (I've heard recommendations as high as 8 to 10 gallons), then you SHOULD be finding a little extra oil around the plane. You don't want to burn off oil that is helping to extend the break-in period, because that means you're breaking it in for a long life. Must be if you're getting ready to thin it out to 50-1. I've heard a lot of recommendations for burning Premium gas in them only... I would assume that, just like for real aircraft, the higher octane burns better, cleaner, cooler. I wonder what the consensus is out here amongst the modelers about which octane to use...and why, of course.
7400rpm...isn't that just about right for the EVO 45s? 1300 is a real low low...is it shaking at that low an idle?
You could leave the landing gear off, hand-launch it and belly-whop it when you land. That would take some more weight off! Man, I'm starting to sound like my buddy Rick now..."lighter-lighter-lighter!"... Anyway, 12 pounds sounds awesome for a gasser in the 50 range....not sure I want to know how you carved over 8 ounces off of it, but if you're happy, I'm happy!
Sounds cool..
Jim
Thank you for the review link! The reviewer's findings were pretty close to my estimates, maybe even a little better. He was pretty thorough, and mostly I was impressed by the fact that his high points seem to be the same ones I have..such as liking the bearings and the two rings. I saved the link on my favorites. Some good detective work there, Thank You! I've been looking for something like that.
Now, your EVO 45...that's still pretty new, isn't it? If it is still within the first few gallons (I've heard recommendations as high as 8 to 10 gallons), then you SHOULD be finding a little extra oil around the plane. You don't want to burn off oil that is helping to extend the break-in period, because that means you're breaking it in for a long life. Must be if you're getting ready to thin it out to 50-1. I've heard a lot of recommendations for burning Premium gas in them only... I would assume that, just like for real aircraft, the higher octane burns better, cleaner, cooler. I wonder what the consensus is out here amongst the modelers about which octane to use...and why, of course.
7400rpm...isn't that just about right for the EVO 45s? 1300 is a real low low...is it shaking at that low an idle?
You could leave the landing gear off, hand-launch it and belly-whop it when you land. That would take some more weight off! Man, I'm starting to sound like my buddy Rick now..."lighter-lighter-lighter!"... Anyway, 12 pounds sounds awesome for a gasser in the 50 range....not sure I want to know how you carved over 8 ounces off of it, but if you're happy, I'm happy!
Sounds cool..
Jim
02-05-2008, 08:42 PM
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RE: 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
Yep, it has a little vibration...but not any more then my nitros.....I have a 2 gallon gas jug and have been through 4 of the them...havent counted the flights....have to keep the idle at that so the plane dont take-off before I'm ready....wish you could see this fly....does everything I can throw at it with ease......hovers at half throttle....I am at about 3800 above see level.....7400 is perfect..
02-05-2008, 08:45 PM
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RE: 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
Octanehuffer, Thank you for the MVVS link. Lots of info there on lots of subjects, they seem to have done some homework on oils and gas octanes. The absolutely recommend premium on all MVVS engines and they prefer Mobil Synthetic burning oils. If the EVO is connected to this company, there's a lot of information there. I didn't read through the whole site but I didn't see the Evolution name anywhere I was looking while I was in there. I'm going to try to read some more in there tomorrow.
You're right...not Chinese! Netherlands, apparently. But some of the names from the MVVS acronym sounded almost Russian to me.
Jim
You're right...not Chinese! Netherlands, apparently. But some of the names from the MVVS acronym sounded almost Russian to me.
Jim
02-05-2008, 08:48 PM
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RE: 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
We got off to a rocky start here, but the last ten posts or so have been more productive towards getting info on these engines than all the other places I've looked. We're actually getting somewhere!
Jim
Jim
02-05-2008, 08:54 PM
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RE: 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
I just thought of it...You reminded me...I've got to get myself a gas jug and some kind of pump for gassing up... Hmmmm, actually I already have a 2.5 gallon flame-proof safety can, so I'm okay on that but still need to choose a good pump. Those dang safety cans cost about 50 bucks apiece! Better safe than sorry when you're doing chain saw work, though. Also, you can get fined in Maine by the cops AND OSHA for not having the right can in your truck.
Jim
Jim
02-05-2008, 08:54 PM
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RE: 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
I run 93 non oxy in mine. Sold at the pump named "offroad only 93". I run it in my performance cars so I get it all at the same time. Never had a bad look yet.
I wanted to say MVVS was Czek Republic, but I am not for sure. I know its in the European area though. If Pe Rievers will chime in he would tell us. That was his site and the pic on the home page was him. Very, very knowledgeable.
Just use a hand crank pump from Horizon. 14.99 and meant for Gas. Later this summer I am going to make my own Abell fueller. Dont want to spend 210 dollars on a 2.5 gallon gas can and pump.
The Evolution name is the "American" MVVS. If you look at any MVVS, you will see that it is the same. back on that website are some pics of the MVVS 45. Its the gold colored crankcase just like the Evolution. I didnt see it on the site but they also have a water cooled version of the 58. Very nice looking engine with a radiator!
I wanted to say MVVS was Czek Republic, but I am not for sure. I know its in the European area though. If Pe Rievers will chime in he would tell us. That was his site and the pic on the home page was him. Very, very knowledgeable.
Just use a hand crank pump from Horizon. 14.99 and meant for Gas. Later this summer I am going to make my own Abell fueller. Dont want to spend 210 dollars on a 2.5 gallon gas can and pump.
The Evolution name is the "American" MVVS. If you look at any MVVS, you will see that it is the same. back on that website are some pics of the MVVS 45. Its the gold colored crankcase just like the Evolution. I didnt see it on the site but they also have a water cooled version of the 58. Very nice looking engine with a radiator!
02-05-2008, 09:06 PM
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RE: 3MM TOC-53cc vs DA50 vs Evo45/58
ORIGINAL: octanehuffer
Wow. If it flies my 17lb Yak really well, I bet the 73" one will explode out of a hover. I am also on the fence of puttin another Evolution 45 on the QQ 73". You should try a 21x8x3 3 blade prop and bring your torque curve into the sweet spot of 6800-7000.
Jim, the manufacturer of the Evolution gas engines is MVVS.
IIRC the bearing issue was a lack of lube thru the crankshaft to feed a bearing. The bearings in the Evolution are good quality, just like the rest of it. It just need some teething. No different than any other company. The DA 85 just went through its fair share of problems on the first 450 or so made.
Adam
Wow. If it flies my 17lb Yak really well, I bet the 73" one will explode out of a hover. I am also on the fence of puttin another Evolution 45 on the QQ 73". You should try a 21x8x3 3 blade prop and bring your torque curve into the sweet spot of 6800-7000.
Jim, the manufacturer of the Evolution gas engines is MVVS.
IIRC the bearing issue was a lack of lube thru the crankshaft to feed a bearing. The bearings in the Evolution are good quality, just like the rest of it. It just need some teething. No different than any other company. The DA 85 just went through its fair share of problems on the first 450 or so made.
Adam