RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

i have a way to ease into inverted harriers i think. this move always freaked me out. it seemed 10 times harder than upright harriers, but im sure thats only because i didn't try them enough. i used to try them by flying inverted and pushing the plane slowly to a stall, then start banging the sticks and getting into trouble.. then one day i was hovering and letting the plane drift back to me and it dawned on me.. learn the inverted harrier out of hovers. i kept it in mind and remembered that when i was hovering and the plane started drifting away, almost in that inverted harrier position, but more nose up, that i WAS doing an inverted harrier.. just really high alpha. it mainly helped for learning instinctively the correct rudder inputs. so basically, if you can hover as lng as you want, that is the ticket to inverted harriers if you are terrified of them, as i was. now, when i do feel ready to try one, i fly around inverted ad stall it, but as soon as i get it up stalled, i keep that hovering technique in mind. it really works. if i think to much, it drops a wing and i have to save it. but if i "let it happen" it works much better. i think a good inverted harrier is just as hard as a good rolling harrier.

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

also, i try a rudder input and if its wrong i hold the opposite. this seems like a bad way to do it, but one day it all becomes natural. not that it has for me, i just see that with pratice, it can.

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

i have a quick question about the wall. when i pull full up elevator, one wing always drops and i'd always have to quickly correct with rudder. i cannot get my edge 540 to do a "clean" wall manuver. why does it do this? i dont think it's a lateral balance problem or a problem of unmatched elevator halves, b/c sometimes it'll drop the right wing other times it'll drop the left wing.

i have the same problem doing the waterfall. basically any manuver that requires hard full elevator, the plane will not stay "straight" and would require lots of rudder correction. and it just doesnt look "clean".

any suggestions?

thanks.

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

I am at the same boat, but mine is GP Yak :(

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

Make sure the elevators are moving exactly the same amount at exactly the same time.

An easy way to see this is get to spring type clothes pins and 2 very straight pieces of balsa sticks roughly 20 inches long. Now glue the sticks to the clothes pins. Clip the clothes pins to each elevator and angle them so they meet right behind the rudder. It's important that you clip the pins to the same spot on each elevator halve.

Now slowly move the elevators from full down to full up and watch the sticks. They should remain lined up the whole way through the travel.

If they do then verify lateral balance is OK and if both of those are fine then it could be you have too little throw. Too little throw will not allow the wing to get past the stall point quickly. CG can also effect this to a degree. You could be too nose heavy. The GP Yak seems to have this issue when set to the book CG. Check over in the big CG Yak forum, they did discuss it in there.

Another thing I have seen is entering the wall with the wings not level, huge amounts of aileron or rudder trim or even engine thrust.

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

Waterfalls are going to do that to some extent, because you're goosing the throttle at a stalled position. The engine torque is taking over and you definitely have to correct the tail quite a bit as well as some aileron.

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

shakes is correct. I saw the post but did not read it all the way through so excuse my earlier post about checking stuff,

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

exellent thread guys I was waiting for something like this for a long time!!! now can anyone tell me on how to do a basic hover (set up,cg,and stuff)
I'm currently fying a Ultra R/c Giles202 29% and yes its a awesome plane for me but i like to learn a lot more on these manouvers.
thanks
fernando

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

There is one thing I'm trying to do that I can't quite figure out. I don't know the name, but it is a spin where the plane is on it's side, wings are near vertical, but it's falling with the tail rotating around the fuse on the throttle. Anyone know what that is called?

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

Nevermind, I see how to do it now, full down elevator with left aileron and rudder, or full up elevator with left aileron and right rudder. Seems like the better the entry to the spin is, the better the spin looks.

So doing that to blender, to flat spin, to hover would look cool. I'll work on that.....

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

AKSCHU,
Sounds like you are talking about a knife edge spin. I think its posted earlier in the thread.


Mr. Scale,
Hovering is something you really can't "teach". You just stand the plane up on its tail and do it.. I will give you some tips ( in my simple minded terms) though.
1. You need the plane a little on the tailheavy side, not much, just a little. If the plane is constantly wanting to fall forward or back then you probably need to move the cg back some or tweek the engine thrust. However, you have to compromise on whether you want the plane to "fly" well or hover well.
2. You need a LOT of throw, especially if you are a beginner,,, 45° ++. The less experienced you are the more elevator and rudder throw you will need to get yourself out of trouble. As you improve you need less throw because you make fewer mistakes that require big corrections.
3. Max Aileron throw and ailerons that come in as close to the wing root as possible are key. You need LOTS of throw to stop the plane from torque rolling. You need to ailerons in close to the root so they get the maximum amount of prop was across them. If your ailerons are not in the prop wash they wont be effective in a hover. This holds true for most all 3D maneuvers since the plane is stalled in most 3D manuevers so you are always relying on thrust and propwash to fly.
4. You need enough power to pull out of a hover with significant authority. You should be able to hover the plane at 1/2 throttle or less. If you are at more than 1/2 throttle you may not have enough reserve power to yank the plane back upright if you get in trouble. This is critical to being able to safely learn to hover. If you are underpowered and get the plane into an awkward attitude and cannot pull out, you run a significant risk of losing control and crashing.
5. If the airplane is belly in, I personally key on the tail. TO rudder correct with the belly facing you, you simply push the rudder stick in the direction you want the tail to go. IF the canopys facing you its obvious what you do with the rudder, just correct normally.
6. To keep the plane from torque rolling, do not stand the plane straight up, leave the nose slightly less than vertical. Maybe 80 degrees or so. As soon as the plane stands up vertically it is going to want to torque roll. To stop this you need big aileron throws as mentioned above. Biplanes are going to torque roll easier and since they have a shorter wingspan relative to their size, they will torque roll really fast almost immediately.

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

You are dead on as usual on this one. My Ultimate if I stand it straight up with TQ instantly and since an Ultimate does everything that is gyroscopic it gets haulin around [X(]

To me there is nothing like a big bipe sitting on it's tail slowly TQ'ing around. It's the view that 2 wings give that I like so much [&:]:D.

I think we have enough information in here to create a Word document and PDF file. Once I get back from flying, I'm leaving right now, I start assembling this thread into those files and put them in a place for all to get to.

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

thanks mikeEast I will try it this weekend
Fernando

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

Another entry for the KE spin, but it works better for the larger planes with more tail areas.

Go vertical into a hammerhead. Carry just a touch of throttle so you won't make a full stop at the top. Just before the stall at the top go to max high rate rudder either direction. As the plane rotates to the horizontal on the rudder input, reverse the rudder to the top, add full up or down high rate elevator, depending on the desired direction of rotation. Hold the top rudder and max elevator, maintain neutral ailerons and throw power at it to get the rotation going. Use ailerons to counter roll coupling.

Bubba, just found this thread for the first time, what a great idea!!

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

Right. I find I have to really be on the ailerons to keep the wings vertical. This entry looks really clean and controlled.

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

:D

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

great thread

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

I'd like to understand better: elevator up and both ailerons up? What %?

Thank you

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

Yes, elevator up and both ail up. But don't miss the key point: You shouldn't need that mix. Best thing to do, and lots of folks don't seem to want to take the time, is to learn to control wing rock. You'll need quick inputs from your ailerons to counteract the rock as soon as it happens. They become like little blips of input, gone almost as soon as they are entered. Its really not that hard, you just have to put in some practice. Very soon it will become second nature and the rock will magically disappear. Then all those planes you thought were lousy at harrier mysteriously fly better. How do I know? 'cause that's exactly what happened to me.

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

I remember someone once providing an answer when another person asked him to teach them how to hover. The answer applies to all the rest as well. Essentially it came down to burning lots and lots of gas in practice, practice, practice, and more practice. Once you have it all down, go out and practice some more. A little bit every day beats a whole bunch in one day.

A little tip on learning to hover. The wind can be a great assist if you're willing to use it. Put the nose of the plane into the wind and let the plane "lean" into it. Concentrate on just holding the plane's nose up and letting the wind push it back a little. Learn the moves necessary to hold the wings level and the tail in a steady position, gradually learning to use the throttle to hold position against the wind. The more of this you do the easier it will be later ease the plane into a more vertical position.

As for Walls, Elevators, Harriers, and Waterfalls, the more abrubt the control input, the slower the plane is moving, or when using maximum surface deflections, the more important the use of rudder becomes. That's why so many of the IMAC and Pattern contest flyers turn into the best 3D flyers. They understand and use the left thumb, and practice, practice, practice.

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

Yes, yes and yes again! All 3 points are very true. Especially the tip on leaning the nose into the wind while learning to hover is a really really good one. a slight steady bresse is best, maybe 3-5mph. It makes it a lot easier to learn to hover if the nose is at 80-85 degrees and not straight up where you are trying to balance the plane on the prop AND stop the torque roll.

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

Yeah, Pat. You nailed that one. I've always felt the rudder was the most important control surface. Mostly because it was what was missing. Its proper use seperated fliers into camps, if you will. I'm really into the throttle these days, too. I was out doing 3D with a few guys tonight and there were thermals passing through, so the air was a bit bumpy. As I was doing torque rolls right on the deck, It struck me how throttle corrections really helped keep things in line under those conditions. I had to constantly back off the throttle to keep the plane from climbing as I would use blips of throttle to help the rudder correct as the airplane was getting knocked around. So to maitain a constant altitude and make a nice looking (axial if you will) TR the throttle was in constant motion, working with elevator and rudder inputs. Harriers were the same thing. I was doing low inverted harriers and sometimes a gust would just stop the plane and I would have to lower the nose to get penetration and come off the power to keep the airplane from flying. i have to brag.... I did this one harrier landing that was awesome! I flew by in a really slow, steep harrier and touched just the tail wheel down and it rolled smoothly for about 10 feet and then I flew smoothly off. It was the coolest.

Sorry. I'm done now.

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

I'm just now starting to get into 3d, so this is great stuff. I have spent the last few days learning to hover and torque roll on a G2 sim. Perhaps you guys could share you thoughts about what sims to use and how to set them up. For my part I have found that, on a G2, if you scale the plane up a few sizes it gives you more time to correct. As you get more comfortable, you scale it back to normal and it becomes more realistic. Here is a movie of my first few succesful attempts. Thanks for the great info.

Click here to watch Torque-Roll-The-Movie

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

nice video, kbear. I use G2 also. its pretty challenging to learn to harrier on it, but if you can control wing rock in that program, you won't have any trouble with real models. I just do the usual stuff, increase surface size and deflection. I also change the wing to a straight leading edge. For some reason the sim is happier letting you harrier in that configuration. G3 is probably much better/geared toward 3D but G2 is what I have so I learned all the 3D moves on it. Rolling harriers work great because the wing is already rolling so it can't rock.

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
 

The problem woith changing the wing and such in the sim is you are now taking away the problem of wing rock and not learning to deal with it. I have taken measurements from my planes and transferred them into both G3 and Aerofly pro to get them to better emulate the real thing. This is, to me, by far the best way to do this, though it does take quite a bit of work. You wll end up with something very close to what you have in real life.

In G3, I have the Yak laid out with the exact same measurements and my 75cc Aeroworks and the Cap has been downsized to my GP Cap232. Both fly as close to the real thing, not totally but very close