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bubbagates 07-03-2006 08:56 PM

New Video: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
Hi Everyone,

I took notice to something recently and I thought I would get everyone to add what they know here. If it works I'll make it a sticky at the top so that everyone can find it.

There have been a rash of questions lately asking how to do this maneuver or that maneuver and I feel we need a single location to find all of these. I'd prefer to keep this related to 3D

So, tell us all how do a certain maneuver...or ask how to do one



MikeEast 07-03-2006 09:48 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
Slightly tailheavy ( the less elevator throw you have the more tail heavy you need to be.)
At least 45-70 degrees of elevator throw
High rate aileron
Max rudder deflection

How to:
1.Get the airplane up high maybe 300' to start
2. Chop the throttle and dive the aiplane vertcially, straight down.
3. Immediately give full left aileron input and get several rotations until the plane is rolling fast.
Simultaneously (but ever so slightly lead with full down elevator) feed in full down elevator, full right rudder and half to full throttle. The plane will violently wrap into an inverted flat spin.
4. As it settles into the inverted flat spin, continue to hold full down and full rudder and bring the ailerons back to center. This should level out the flat spin.
5. Adjust the throttle and ailerons to flatten out the spins and slow the descent.

If you get it right the plane will descend vertically flat on its back wrapping tightly around its cg axis.

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7n6z-eQUMXo]Blender Video[/link]

MikeEast 07-03-2006 09:56 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
Setup: Same as the Blender
Maximum down elevator deflection (As much as you can possibly get)

How to:
1. Level the wings or climb vertically until the plane comes to a stop in a hover stance.
2. Full down elevator, hold and apply full throttle.
3. The plane should flip inverted in a pivot right around the wingtube ( For me, the radius of the pivot is the same as the distance from the tip of the tail to the wingtube)
4. As the plane wraps to inverted chop the throttle and then back to full throttle as the plane comes back up. Hammer the throttle to punch it completely over the top and get right back out at it flops over. Sometimes you can leave the throttle in if it falls just right.
a. You have to rudder correct quite a bit in this maneuver to keep it straight. I personally watch the tail of the plane and push it where I want when the plane is pointing vertically nose up or nose down.

How do you know you have it right?
The plane will totally lose lift and start to fall rapidly as it waterfalls over and over. Sometimes if you hit it just right the plane will accelerate into an extremly fast waterfall rapidly spinning right over the wingtube axis.

To recover, simply get off of the trottle and elevator and fly out.

The trick is to enter and exit manuevers in a fluid manner constantly transitioning from one thing to the next, or at least have a good setup transition to get you to the next maneuver.

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feuyIIVRR2w]Waterfall Video [/link]

MikeEast 07-03-2006 10:03 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
Knife Edge Spin

Setup same as waterfall

How to:
1. From a knife edge or vertical stance really high up, apply full down elevator, and then in the same direction full rudder and full aileron. Basically just pin the elevator/aileron stick all the way over.
2. Adjust the throttle and aileron to keep it in a knife edge position. I normally can hold it there just keeping everything at full deflection and adjsuting the throttle.

The entry is the key, if you dont get it just right you wil end up in an inverted flat spin. The trick for me is dont mess around. SHove the sticks to full deflection and go straight to around 1/2 throttle. It will immediately fall right in.

This is another manuever that eats altitude in a hurry. Be sure to be plenty high and give yourself time to recover.

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUB7O2aDlsM]Knife Edge Spin Video[/link]

MikeEast 07-03-2006 10:14 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Same setup as above

1. Slow the plane to just slightly above stall speed. Point the nose down and then sharply feed in full up elevaotr and keep it there, do not let back out, hold full deflection. Start out high until you get the feel for it.
2. As the airplane stands up chop the throttle so that it does not stand up vertically or flip over. It will start to sink fast, wings level and slightly nose high.
3. Immediately begin to ease in the throttle until it stops sinking and then control forward motion and altitude with throttle ONLY. You wil probably be pulsing the throttle a bit to hold it in the high alpha attitude.
4. Use the ailerons only to keep the wings level
5. Steer the airplane with the rudder only. No ailerons to steer.

The key issue is going to be managing wingrock. The wings are going to stall alaternately and rock back and forth a little. Best thing you can do is use the ailerons to minimize.
That and/or,
a. lighten the airplane
b. check lateral balance
c. Add a spoileron mix to lift your ailerons either to a set deflection on a switch, or to work in conjunction with the elevators.
You should not NEED the mix. If the plane is light and if you set it up right, wingrock will not e an issue and in time you will manage it with aileron control

Last thing.
As you turn the airplane be super careful until you get accustomed to how the plane handles, typically the plane is gong to want to drop a wing a little ( You are giving the textbook inputs for a snap roll) Just be thinking ahead and adjust the ailerons ahead of time to keep the wings level as you steer. This will be especially apparent on a downwind turn where you are turning the nose out of the wind and putting your tail to the wind. This is the riskiest time and when the plane is really going to want to lose altitude and tipstall. You have to be " on" and ahead with the ailerons and throttle.

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic6ZqIoU4iQ]Harrier Video[/link]

airborneSGT 07-03-2006 10:44 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
Rolling Harrier:

If you understand the 4 point roll, then you will understand the stick movements in the rolling harrier.
Entering the rolling harrier is really easy but the ability to fly it depends on your plane setup and the plane itself.

Lets start out with one direction first. Remember you will need full 3D rates for this:

1. Begin with holding right aileron.

2. As your plane begins its roll to the right feed in left rudder and about the same time down elevator (this will bring you through the knife edge / inverted portion)

3. 4. as your plane begins to the other side feed in right rudder and about the same time up elevator (this will bring you through the other knife edge / up right portion)

4. Depending on where you want to direct your plane you will need to goose the throttle about every 1/4 turn of the move.

Every plane has a slightly different feel in this move. It will take a lot of sim time and a lot of practice.

Start out with rolling circles first and then move into this when you get the feel. Giving more or less rudder or elevator will also help you steer the plane around. I find that if I feed in throttle inverted or upright during the rolling harrier it keeps the plane going straight.

Feed in too much throttle and your plane will pull out. Too much rudder and or elevator and your plane will also clim / pull out. You might also try letting up on the aileron input to slow things down if your plane gets moving. You have to keep up with the rudder and getting the stick movements is the key to doing this IMHO. Once you think you got it down, try it in the other direction.

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKfx7oMVUAA]Rolling Harrier[/link]

MikeEast 07-04-2006 05:27 AM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
Comment regarding the Rolling Harrier

The descprition above is good I just want to qualify one thing. Adding the control inputs early

(feed in left rudder and about the same time down elevator )
works, actually the next input is more early than at about the same time, to do a rolling harrier circle. Effectively what is happening is the rudder and elevator are alternating duties. 1/2 of the time the elevator is acting as the rudder and vice versa.

Too Add.

Straight Line Rolling Hariers are similar but the control inputs have to be timed better so that you DO NOT input early or late. You have to hit the rudder/elevator inputs spot on to keep the airplaen going in a straight line. For me straight line rolling harriers were the most difficult of all to learn.

MikeEast 07-04-2006 12:03 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
Surprised no one else has any input since this is a 3D forum.[:o]


Fly forward wings level at about 1/2 throttle. Simultanously chop the throttle and pull full up 3D rate elevator. The airplane should stand up sharply on its tail, without gaining any altitude. When it stands up re apply the throttle to keep it in a vertical position to transition into a hover or whatever your next maneuver will be.

You can also use a similar version to popup into a hover from a lower speed. Its not as violent but it gets you into the right attitude to harrier, or pull on up into a hover.

Be sure to watch both videos..

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5-YDrYQvaM]Wall Video [/link]

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKvSaayaNL4]Wall Variations Video![/link]

xtdsm 07-04-2006 12:08 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
great how-to bro.

I am sure that will help someone outhere, heck it sure helped me.

thanks for the time taken to put posts like that together.

MikeEast 07-04-2006 12:20 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Requires 45-70 degrees of elevator throw and an aft CG.

1. From an elevated position, push full down elevator and dive the airplane vertically, straight down.
2. Once the plane has accelerated and has some momentum, pull full up elevator sharply and hold.
2a. If the plane does n t pop into a harrier stance but descends nose slightly down
1. Move the CG back or increase elevator throw.
2. As you pull full up, pulse the throttle pretty hard to help pop the nose up. Then immediately adjust the throttle to maintain the harrier attitude, or transition into the next maneuver.

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WomsddUflYE]Parachute Video[/link]

MikeEast 07-04-2006 12:35 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
Inverted Flat Spin

Requires High rate rudder and elevator and aft CG.

1. From any attitude, push full down elevator, full right rudder and full left aileron.
2. As the plane starts to flatten out continue to hold full down and full right rudder, ease the ailerons back to center.
3. Adjust ailerons as needed to level the wings. Adjust the throttle to keep the nose level.

To make a nice transition, slowly ease off of the rudder and let it come back to center a little at a time, adjusting throttle and ailerons to control attitude and wings level. The spin will start to open up into a flat circle and the diameter will increase as you let off the rudder. The the spin rate should decrease to a slow lazy flat inverted turn and look like a lazt falling leaf. From here you can transition into an inverted harrier, rolling harrier etc...

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uWAhqvXk_A]Inverted Flat Spins Video[/link]

MikeEast 07-04-2006 12:55 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
Upright Flat Spin

Same setup as above.

1. Chop the throttle and ease in high rate elevator until the plane stalls.
2, Input full up elevator, full left aileron and full left rudder and the plane will start to spin.
3. As the plane starts to spins hold full elevator and rudder and let the ailerons come back to neutral.
4. Adjust the throttle to keep the nose level. You may have to adjust the elevator a little, but if you play the throttle right and dont add too much, you should be able to hold full up.

The plane will spin either but to the left it works better because you are working with instead of against other forces.


Let out of the rudder slowly to decrease the rate of spin. The spin will slow and eventually open up into a flat spin/turn.

To transition from upright spin to inverted spin simply move the sticks from one spin to the other, Just make sure that you input to keep the rotation of the spin the same. IE if you are spinning inverted clockwise make sure that you move into an upright spin that will continue clockwise. This normally means siomply crossing over with the ailerons and applying full up elevator, or vice versa depending on what you are doing.

Im am including a second video of what the transitions look like. [8D]

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWOFavAWIZA]Upright Flat Spin Video[/link]

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpNdHhLUH4g]Inverted to Upright Spin Transitions[/link]

bubbagates 07-04-2006 01:19 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
Dang Mike, your going to town on this one. If it keeps going like this it should become a sticky pretty quickly if not a direct how-to under the RCU mag

maineflyer 07-04-2006 01:21 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
1st thanks for the thread. Mike thanks for the explainations.
I was thinking it would be nice for someone to show demonstrations on a simulator and post videos of what the manuever should look like with either a verbal explaination of how they enter, execute and exit the specific manuever or a transmitter in the movie to show it. It also would be great to have a permanant sticky with these cataloged in it so that people just getting into 3D could utilize the thread when learning. Or at least a clearing house of other websites who have this type of training.
Thanks again...

MikeEast 07-04-2006 02:07 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
Snap Rolls-
The snap roll is commonly used when flying 3D so I will add it to the list.

The Snap Roll by AMA aerobatics code definition is "a simultaneous, rapid autorotation in the pitch, yaw and roll axes in a stalled wing attitude."

Now, to do a snap roll there are some things the plane must do.
1. You first need to sharply increase the angle of attack to put the plane into a position where it will stall without changing the track (much) This is easier said than done but a little nose break is really necesary to get a good snap and hold your line. This is done with a quick pulse of up elevator to "break" the nose and put the wing in a position to stall.
2. Within a split second of that pulse of elevator input you push the rudder full over (to start learning to snap) and at the same time input full aileron deflection in the same direction as the rudder.
**What you should see then is called "rapid autorotation". When you input the rudder you get "YAW" which means one wing speeds up, and the other slow rapidly and stalls. This initiates a sharp roll in the direction of the rudder input becuase one wing stops flying. Technically you should not "Need" to use ailerons, but with RC models the ailerons help to get the process started. You should not be depending on the ailerons for the rotation, if you are its not snapping they are just there to clean it up a little.
3. To keep the plane on heading as stated about you neutralize the elevator 1st and then the ailerons and rudder. All of this happens in less than 1 second.

Initiate stall in the wing by sharply pitching.
Stall the wing by inputting the rudder
Ailerons to clean up the rotation.
Neutralize at just the right moment to stop roll.

It is sortof a J pattern laid on its side.

[link=http://www.dodvideos.com/snaprolls.wmv]Snap Roll Video[/link]

MikeEast 07-04-2006 02:45 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
High Alpha Knife Edge

Slow the plane down and chop the throttle and roll the plane into knife edge. Input full deflection rudder and carefully adjust the throttle to bring the nose up and hold it there. Pulse the throttle just barely enough to sustain level high alpha (nose pointing up) flight without climbing. Hold full rudder and adjust the ailerons to balance. Once you get used to it its not too hard, but until you get used to it the plane can feel like its a little squirrely in this attitude.

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ge8F3b_8GYE]High Alpha Knife Edge[/link]

MikeEast 07-04-2006 02:52 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
Falling Leaf I think that is what its called[8D]

Basically this is just a dive with alternating full up/full down/full up/full down 3D rate elevator.

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g467q7NbqJ4]Falling Leaf[/link]

shakes268 07-04-2006 02:58 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers



High Alpha Knife Edge

Slow the plane down and chop the throttle and roll the plane into knife edge. Input full deflection rudder and carefully adjust the throttle to bring the nose up and hold it there. Pulse the throttle just barely enough to sustain level high alpha (nose pointing up) flight without climbing. Hold full rudder and adjust the ailerons to balance. Once you get used to it its not too hard, but until you get used to it the plane can feel like its a little squirrely in this attitude.
I want to add that ANY plane is going to couple really bad here (at least so far with me) and be ready on the elevator to find out if it goes to the canopy or belly. My QQ Yak has almost no coupling in knife edge flight but high alpha knife edge it pulls to the canopy a great deal so I end up having to push alot

Cappy69 07-04-2006 03:58 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

I totally agree, the coupling is not linear, so it depends on your speed and angle of attack during this. The only way to somewhat rectify this is to program a multipoint mix....for me, thats too much trouble. I prefer to "feel" the plane during this maneuver and lean slightly on the sticks ever so gently to make corrections. I also like to enter these from what I call a "death slide" ( not sure if that's really what it's called). Basically I start climbing to moderate altittude and set up almost like a stall turn. But instead of staying on the rudder until the nose is pointed back to earth, I give full opposite rudder, a bit of elevator initially to get the plane pointed straight back at me in a knife edge attitude, and start slightly easing on the throttle...but not too much. I want the plane to basically do what looks like a knife-edge elevator. Now, as the plane gets closer to the ground (this is the part that takes some nerve) I start really leaning on the throttle with the rudder still burried just long enough for the plane to stop losing altittude. Once this happens I start easing back off it to maintain a hight alpha KE at a constant altittide across the field. The transition from falling to level flight is where throttle mangement is key. I've almost lost my plane more times doing this than any other maneuver......but it sure looks cool.

Here are 2 vids.....The first one was from November. A bunch of HA knife-edges,etc. At that time I had a smoke system and ALOT of dead weight on the plane.
The second was from 6/4/2006. I thought I would share them with you....but be gentle, this is only my second full season since getting into this awesome hobby. [sm=RAINFRO.gif]


[link=http://www3.rapidupload.com/file.php?filepath=3224]Video 1[/link] (32 Megs-fast)
[link=http://b06.bestsharing.com/ms00173792/TM10JNMW/ZjiqvMyjOtubZh8j2S48o8LeD7L9qfc/Edge_Vid.wmv]Video 2[/link] (83 megs-fast)

MikeEast 07-04-2006 04:26 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers

Nice flying Cappy, you have some pretty nice skills[8D]. You ought to put all of those nice maneuvers together in freestyle routine. If you combined them together you would have a great routine.;)



I totally agree, the coupling is not linear, so it depends on your speed and angle of attack during this. The only way to somewhat rectify this is to program a multipoint mix....for me, thats too much trouble. I prefer to "feel" the plane during this maneuver and lean slightly on the sticks ever so gently to make corrections. I also like to enter these from what I call a "death slide" ( not sure if that's really what it's called).

My buddy started calling it a "suicide slide" last year. I dont think it really has a name but its a cool thing to do.

I also like to use a multipoint mix for knife edge , but like youI dont consider high alpha in that mix. I just deal with the corrections in high alpha.

AeroDave 07-04-2006 04:43 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
Maybe some of us were just out flying and didn't stumble on this until now:)

As you said (I think) there are many ways/variations to do these moves. for the wall, I like enter at idle and blip the throttle to get a really quick rotation. By blip I mean hit some throttle and back off immediately to keep the airplane from climbing. I have found this kind of throttle motion sorta pastes the plane to the sky. Then Its whatever is to be next. If I want to hover or TR I'll smoothly but quickly add throttle to the airplanes' required hover throttle setting.

AeroDave 07-04-2006 04:52 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
Something to add to the rolling harrier is beginners tend to add top rudder approaching the first "point" too early and too much. These days folks didn't spend years working on long, slow rolls like us long time pattern enthusiasts did. So the concept of smoothly adding top rudder in a roll tends to freak them out, so to speak. So they begin the roll, jam in some top rudder and change heading and roll rate before they get started. I just wanted to add that you need to feed in corrections smoothly and no more than is needed. I find If I'm already in a harrier when I begin the roller, I don't really need much top rudder on the first point. The key is to be able to fly through the move add what's needed. From a harrier, start the roll and let the airplane settle in. If rolling left, wait to add the right rudder until it begins to fall just a bit. It sorta locks in that way. And remember, it won't always be the same amount of correction, depending on what the airplane is doing. Fly through the move. If you're having trouble getting the timing down on a rolling harrier, try waiting and relaxing just a bit before adding that first bit of rudder. Also, try starting the move from a good harrier. Left is easier at first because torque helps it along.

Cappy69 07-04-2006 04:59 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
Thanks for the kind words Mike. I'm just now starting to link some of the moves together. That has it's own learning curve :) ....but I'm getting there. It's amazing the amount of help the simulators are. Confidence comes alot easier when you have many hours sim time under your belt......but sims just don't have that same "pucker factor"....and trust me...I've thrown away plenty of "messed shorts" :D. The hard part is respecting the other fliers in the air during busier times...I usually really have my fun either early before a bunch of people show up.....or after the crowd has left.


airborneSGT 07-04-2006 05:01 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
1 Attachment(s)
Rolling harrier elevators are cool. Having a good head wind tends to help in a lot of 3D flying :) Yeah its kinda hard to describe certain things. I just fly the moves. For me the Extra 260 is my favorite for 3D. Its really easy to keep in line when doing rolling harriers. Holding the rudder just a tad longer when inverted also helps to guide the plane where you want it.

Like I said its hard to describe. Every plane has a slightly different feel. Parachutes and elevators are no brainers on Ultimates.

AeroDave 07-04-2006 05:07 PM

RE: HOW-To..3D maneuvers
Something else worth talking about is the inverted harrrier. Here again, the novice tends to get overly concerned with rudder inputs in that its backwards when inverted. Also, nose in inverted (airplane coming towards you, sorry, former heli pilot) is kindof like normal rudder in that left stickwill yaw the airplane to your left. I'm not discussing how to keep your orientation straight as there are many ways to do this and folks seem to respond to different methods. What I'm saying is, if you add too much rudder during an inverted harrier turn say, when making a 180, the nose will drop as the airplane comes around and it will be hard to get it back up. Many planes tend to lock into an inverted harrier better/easier than upright. You'll often hear folks say their plane rocks a bit upright but is solid inverted. So I have found I can use a bit of normal aileron inverted and back off the rudder. What that gives me as a turn in which the nose stays up in HA, and the airplanes looks like its in a harrier all the way through the turn. You'll still need rudder in the turns, just maybe not as much as you think.

Why am I bringing this up? Because I suspect there are many folks who are having trouble keeping the nose up in the inverted harrier turns and I think this might help.


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