Twin-tail Twin-Air 45 Flight Report
03-14-2004, 08:54 PM
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Twin-tail Twin-Air 45 Flight Report
My Twin-Air 45 flies, twin-tail and all!
I got a few club "experts" to maiden it for me, then few it a few times myself this afternoon. This is going to be a fun plane! The twin rudders work great (although the plane is plenty easy enough to fly without using them.) Takeoff is easy, landing is easy and the plane is quite responsive- pretty rolls, good inverted flight, etc.
The 10x6 3-blade Zingers on my OS-46's have got to go though. The motors won't rev much beyond 10,500 RPM and they just seem to run out of steam past 3/4 throttle. Fine for flying scale, but not good for playing with.
Here's a link to our club's video page, with a video of the maiden flight already posted- [link=http://flytrca.rcsites.net/filmclips.html]http://flytrca.rcsites.net/filmclips.html[/link]
Walt
I got a few club "experts" to maiden it for me, then few it a few times myself this afternoon. This is going to be a fun plane! The twin rudders work great (although the plane is plenty easy enough to fly without using them.) Takeoff is easy, landing is easy and the plane is quite responsive- pretty rolls, good inverted flight, etc.
The 10x6 3-blade Zingers on my OS-46's have got to go though. The motors won't rev much beyond 10,500 RPM and they just seem to run out of steam past 3/4 throttle. Fine for flying scale, but not good for playing with.
Here's a link to our club's video page, with a video of the maiden flight already posted- [link=http://flytrca.rcsites.net/filmclips.html]http://flytrca.rcsites.net/filmclips.html[/link]
Walt
03-14-2004, 09:27 PM
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RE: Twin-tail Twin-Air 45 Flight Report
WOW!!! Even with DSL took a while to down load, but do not shorten it!!
Fantastic. Got mine covered, but the VQ P-38 is still in the way of it. It is ready now.
Where did you get the crazy idea of twin rudders.???
Looks great.
Twinman
Fantastic. Got mine covered, but the VQ P-38 is still in the way of it. It is ready now.
Where did you get the crazy idea of twin rudders.???
Looks great.
Twinman
03-15-2004, 12:52 PM
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RE: Twin-tail Twin-Air 45 Flight Report
Congratulations!
Nice video! Very fast and easy to access.
Was the ground speed really as slow as it looked on takeoff? Strong headwind maybe.
mt
Nice video! Very fast and easy to access.
Was the ground speed really as slow as it looked on takeoff? Strong headwind maybe.
mt
03-15-2004, 05:49 PM
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RE: Twin-tail Twin-Air 45 Flight Report
So cool. I was showing the video to my wife making comments thinking she was watching it as enthralled as I was. Ha - I turned around and she was gone. Probably didn't want to hear about the next plane I want! Really gorgeous! I love the twin tails.
John
John
03-15-2004, 06:14 PM
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RE: Twin-tail Twin-Air 45 Flight Report
Yeah Sunday was fun (but I was admittedly very nervous before I saw it would fly OK)!
The twin rudders really work great. The plane can really "wag its tail".
The takeoffs were slow- the three-bladed props just didn't seem to work at higher revs and like I said the most I could get out of them was only 10,500 RPM. I'm going to put APC 11-5's back on the motors and then we'll really see what the plane can do. And I'm gonna move the balance back a bit, put a little more throw on the aileron rates, and finish dressing the plane out with decals.
But for a "maiden flight day" I was more than satisfied!!!
Walt
The twin rudders really work great. The plane can really "wag its tail".
The takeoffs were slow- the three-bladed props just didn't seem to work at higher revs and like I said the most I could get out of them was only 10,500 RPM. I'm going to put APC 11-5's back on the motors and then we'll really see what the plane can do. And I'm gonna move the balance back a bit, put a little more throw on the aileron rates, and finish dressing the plane out with decals.
But for a "maiden flight day" I was more than satisfied!!!
Walt
03-15-2004, 06:35 PM
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RE: Twin-tail Twin-Air 45 Flight Report
Build-n-flyer-RCU
YOU Da Man!!!
JNorton......busted!!! Hope the plane is as much fun as it looks like.
The fact that I "Wags It's tail" is very very good. I will not speak of why.(Bad Karma)
Fantastic.
Twinman
PS Got to get this P-38 out of the way. He is ahead of me!!
Tee Hee Oh, well at least I know it flies....not my plane!!.........(OH Rats.....is that mike on???)
YOU Da Man!!!
JNorton......busted!!! Hope the plane is as much fun as it looks like.
The fact that I "Wags It's tail" is very very good. I will not speak of why.(Bad Karma)
Fantastic.
Twinman
PS Got to get this P-38 out of the way. He is ahead of me!!
Tee Hee Oh, well at least I know it flies....not my plane!!.........(OH Rats.....is that mike on???)
03-16-2004, 03:04 PM
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RE: Twin-tail Twin-Air 45 Flight Report
That's great!! I like the video too! Now I guess I better get back to the building board. I still have the turtle decks complete make some kind of hatch for the tanks and servos. We still have white stuff on the ground but should be flying within the month. You did a great job on the plane. i would love to hear some of your personal thoughts on how it flies. Let us know about the prop change too.
Dave
Dave
03-16-2004, 04:42 PM
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RE: Twin-tail Twin-Air 45 Flight Report
I guess I haven't given much detail as to my impression of the plane's flight characteristics. By the way the video was of THE maiden flight and the guys were real easy on it- their goal was to get it up and down in one piece!
Taxiing and take-offs were easier than I expected. I synch'd the motors using my 8103 program so that the right motor ran a little slower than the left at and just above idle. This seemed to help getting it started moving in the right direction.
One more time, the 3-blade props really limited my "playing" ability, but-
I was surprised that it flew, banked and turned a lot like my other low-wing planes. Very stable, even at relatively low speeds. It tracked very straight hands-off (after trimming).
The recommended aileron and elevator rates were lower than I like for general flying and I switched to high rates right away. Ailerons were at 5/16" on high. Rolls were still a bit slow but very pretty, right through the center of the plane. I'll try some higher rates next time.
I flipped it upside down and found it took very little down elevator to hold inverted, even at fairly slow speeds, with little tendency to roll out. My dihedral is set 1/2" below design (3-1/2"?).
Elevator response is hard to judge because I didn't have enough power to pull through vertical maneuvers smartly but I did some ugly loops and a stall-turn anyway.
The rudder response is very flat, taking just a little aileron to compensate and hold the plane level. I put it on knife edge and there was very little coupling. But there wasn't enough speed/power to keep the nose up for long.
Landings were easy- comparable maybe to a 4*60 but a little quicker. My plane came in on the heavy side at 8.8 lbs so I expected this. It did tend to drop the nose when the power was pulled out and it took a good bit of up-elevator to hold it level. Not a problem but I'll ease the balance point back and see if that helps flatten it out.
Speaking of weight, I was surprised at how much wt the tail gained when I had everything glued in place and covered. The plane ended up balancing with the battery just in front of the cg. Of course I did beef up the joint at the spacer in front of the stab, and I fabbed up a tapered elevator that matches the thickness of the stab at the front edge. Based on my experience it is an easy plane to build heavy. John (NE-A) may have some thoughts on how to keep the weight down without losing structural integrity. But the good news is that it seems to have more than enough wing to carry the weight.
The next trip to the field will be a tuning trip- we'll see what happens next!
[8D]
Walt
Taxiing and take-offs were easier than I expected. I synch'd the motors using my 8103 program so that the right motor ran a little slower than the left at and just above idle. This seemed to help getting it started moving in the right direction.
One more time, the 3-blade props really limited my "playing" ability, but-
I was surprised that it flew, banked and turned a lot like my other low-wing planes. Very stable, even at relatively low speeds. It tracked very straight hands-off (after trimming).
The recommended aileron and elevator rates were lower than I like for general flying and I switched to high rates right away. Ailerons were at 5/16" on high. Rolls were still a bit slow but very pretty, right through the center of the plane. I'll try some higher rates next time.
I flipped it upside down and found it took very little down elevator to hold inverted, even at fairly slow speeds, with little tendency to roll out. My dihedral is set 1/2" below design (3-1/2"?).
Elevator response is hard to judge because I didn't have enough power to pull through vertical maneuvers smartly but I did some ugly loops and a stall-turn anyway.
The rudder response is very flat, taking just a little aileron to compensate and hold the plane level. I put it on knife edge and there was very little coupling. But there wasn't enough speed/power to keep the nose up for long.
Landings were easy- comparable maybe to a 4*60 but a little quicker. My plane came in on the heavy side at 8.8 lbs so I expected this. It did tend to drop the nose when the power was pulled out and it took a good bit of up-elevator to hold it level. Not a problem but I'll ease the balance point back and see if that helps flatten it out.
Speaking of weight, I was surprised at how much wt the tail gained when I had everything glued in place and covered. The plane ended up balancing with the battery just in front of the cg. Of course I did beef up the joint at the spacer in front of the stab, and I fabbed up a tapered elevator that matches the thickness of the stab at the front edge. Based on my experience it is an easy plane to build heavy. John (NE-A) may have some thoughts on how to keep the weight down without losing structural integrity. But the good news is that it seems to have more than enough wing to carry the weight.
The next trip to the field will be a tuning trip- we'll see what happens next!
[8D]
Walt
03-16-2004, 07:28 PM
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RE: Twin-tail Twin-Air 45 Flight Report
Build-n-flyer-RCU,
Man, have I got a bad case of the I wants. You've got a great looking airplane. I'm glad everything is working out okay. I hope it turns out to be everything you've envisioned. I've followed all the threads with great interest. Once again, it is a great looking plane! Did I mention it is a great looking plane!!!
John
Man, have I got a bad case of the I wants. You've got a great looking airplane. I'm glad everything is working out okay. I hope it turns out to be everything you've envisioned. I've followed all the threads with great interest. Once again, it is a great looking plane! Did I mention it is a great looking plane!!!
John
03-21-2004, 12:50 PM
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RE: Twin-tail Twin-Air 45 Flight Report
I flew my Twin-ar with APC 11x5 two-blade props yesterday. What a difference!!! The plane is very unlimited with these props. Huge beautiful loops and strong straight uplines. Its a bunch faster too, and will go out of sight in seconds on an upline.
I haven't decided whether more rudder would be a good thing. Hammerheads are kind of strange- the plane wants to fly around the top instead of stall (could be all the extra prop efficiency) and it still won't knife-edge.
Maybe some rudder-throttle mixing...
I still haven't had the guts to cut an engine while in flight yet. I figure I'll be better off getting used to the plane before testing a flame-out.
Walt
I haven't decided whether more rudder would be a good thing. Hammerheads are kind of strange- the plane wants to fly around the top instead of stall (could be all the extra prop efficiency) and it still won't knife-edge.
Maybe some rudder-throttle mixing...
I still haven't had the guts to cut an engine while in flight yet. I figure I'll be better off getting used to the plane before testing a flame-out.
Walt
03-21-2004, 02:44 PM
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RE: Twin-tail Twin-Air 45 Flight Report
Build-n-flyer-RCU
Had the same problem with hammer heads and knife edges .....until mixed the engines to the rudders. NOTE> ONLY DO THIS ABOVE 50% THROTTLE or taxi can be VERY DANGEROUS. This will solve the problem........and make inverted flat spins a snap. To get out of the flat spin, reverse the rudder and so, the engine thrust and it flies out immeditately and leaves the single engine guys wondering how you did that.
The only time this mix can get a bit difficult is vertical hovering. If that really is going to ruin your day, let me know and I can show you away around it. With my 9c Futaba, have never figured out how to turn this mix off.
Twinman
Had the same problem with hammer heads and knife edges .....until mixed the engines to the rudders. NOTE> ONLY DO THIS ABOVE 50% THROTTLE or taxi can be VERY DANGEROUS. This will solve the problem........and make inverted flat spins a snap. To get out of the flat spin, reverse the rudder and so, the engine thrust and it flies out immeditately and leaves the single engine guys wondering how you did that.
The only time this mix can get a bit difficult is vertical hovering. If that really is going to ruin your day, let me know and I can show you away around it. With my 9c Futaba, have never figured out how to turn this mix off.
Twinman
03-24-2004, 06:41 PM
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RE: Twin-tail Twin-Air 45 Flight Report
Thanks guys for all the positive comments- it actually turned out to be quite a project for me. My first twin AND redesign of the tailfeathers all in one shot. Now I am working on my P-51 ARF, a big high $$ plane but nowhere near the "work" that it took to get the Twin-Air flying. I'm not generally an ARF kind of a guy, but I needed a break from building!
I understand that Stan (rcdecals.com) has my Twin-Air decals in the mail so my plane should finally be fully dressed next time out to the field. Well maybe not quite completely- John is supposed to get some NE-A decals made and send me some for the fins. I'm not sure how far along he is with this.
Twinman, one thing I haven't yet figured out how to do is program the JR 8103 so that I can mix to the throttles WITHOUT affecting the idle point if I pull the stick back. Once I get comfortable with the plane I definitely want to mix the rudders to the throttles though.
By the way, with the 2-blade props my T-A hovers very nicely- even easier to hold in place than my Pizazz!
Walt
I understand that Stan (rcdecals.com) has my Twin-Air decals in the mail so my plane should finally be fully dressed next time out to the field. Well maybe not quite completely- John is supposed to get some NE-A decals made and send me some for the fins. I'm not sure how far along he is with this.
Twinman, one thing I haven't yet figured out how to do is program the JR 8103 so that I can mix to the throttles WITHOUT affecting the idle point if I pull the stick back. Once I get comfortable with the plane I definitely want to mix the rudders to the throttles though.
By the way, with the 2-blade props my T-A hovers very nicely- even easier to hold in place than my Pizazz!
Walt
03-25-2004, 01:33 AM
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RE: Twin-tail Twin-Air 45 Flight Report
Build-n-flyer-RCU
Sorry, cannot really help on the JR radio. Nothing against JR, but fly Futaba.
Perhaps others could help or post in the factory support forum and let us know here.
Twinman
PS Always do the vertical test!!
Good Job.
Sorry, cannot really help on the JR radio. Nothing against JR, but fly Futaba.
Perhaps others could help or post in the factory support forum and let us know here.
Twinman
PS Always do the vertical test!!
Good Job.
04-12-2004, 08:50 AM
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RE: Twin-tail Twin-Air 45 Flight Report
Walt,
You win! I'm not going to underpower and just got two .46AXs. Do you have any preliminary suggestions for control surface throws? I wasn't sure how much the twin tail would effect the over all setup.
Bill
You win! I'm not going to underpower and just got two .46AXs. Do you have any preliminary suggestions for control surface throws? I wasn't sure how much the twin tail would effect the over all setup.
Bill
04-12-2004, 05:43 PM
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RE: Twin-tail Twin-Air 45 Flight Report
Bill,
Sounds like you are getting close! You will like it with the AX's. The plane is lots of fun with the 46FX's and the APC 2-blade props. One of the guys at the field keeps on bugging me to put Ultrathrust pipes on it. If it holds up I may just give it a try...
I found the recommended rates for aileron to be way too slow for my taste. Set the low rate at least to the recommended setting and the high rate around 5/16", and go from there. For me, the recommended elevator throw was about right for normal flying. But I fabricated a tapered elevator for the plane so yours may respond a little differently. I'd start with the recommended elevator throw on low rate and be a little more aggressive on high. And give it as much rudder throw as you can get and still keep it manageable on takeoff. If you have dual rates on rudder this is easy to do.
My T-A is a very forgiving plane- unless you go crazy with the rates you should be able to fly yours and land it without any problems.
The same goes for balance- I started at the recommended point and am slowly moving the balance back.
You need to post pics of the completed plane for us! I can't wait to hear how the maiden goes!
Walt
Sounds like you are getting close! You will like it with the AX's. The plane is lots of fun with the 46FX's and the APC 2-blade props. One of the guys at the field keeps on bugging me to put Ultrathrust pipes on it. If it holds up I may just give it a try...
I found the recommended rates for aileron to be way too slow for my taste. Set the low rate at least to the recommended setting and the high rate around 5/16", and go from there. For me, the recommended elevator throw was about right for normal flying. But I fabricated a tapered elevator for the plane so yours may respond a little differently. I'd start with the recommended elevator throw on low rate and be a little more aggressive on high. And give it as much rudder throw as you can get and still keep it manageable on takeoff. If you have dual rates on rudder this is easy to do.
My T-A is a very forgiving plane- unless you go crazy with the rates you should be able to fly yours and land it without any problems.
The same goes for balance- I started at the recommended point and am slowly moving the balance back.
You need to post pics of the completed plane for us! I can't wait to hear how the maiden goes!
Walt
04-13-2004, 07:38 AM
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RE: Twin-tail Twin-Air 45 Flight Report
Build-n-flyer, show us some photos of the tail and how you installed rudder and servo [s] with pushrod [s] Would like to see how its put together,how you get it to work. Thanks, MJS
04-13-2004, 05:12 PM
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RE: Twin-tail Twin-Air 45 Flight Report
There's a long, long RCU thread that covers design of the twin-rudder tail on this plane. Here's a link:
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Twin%2DAir_45_build_thread/m_1355375/tm.htm]Twin-Air Build Thread[/link]
Several of us RCU'ers traded notes with John from NE-A and he sent some prototypes of the twin tail kit for us to test. The rudders are actuated by flexible Sullivan golden-rod buried in the stab. So far it seems to be working well. As far as John and I know mine was the first one to fly, and I don't know if anyone else has completed and flown theirs yet.
By the way I used two standard servos (one for each rudder). The one that is also driving the nosewheel still drags a little at high rates and I am hoping it will loosen up with time, as the other one did. For a single servo setup a high-torque servo is very much recommended.
The only other thing that I changed and didn't cover too well in the build thread is the spacer block in front of the stab. If you look at the picture of the finished plane you can see that the block actually widens beyond the sides of the fuse in front of the stab. I extended the tri-stock under the stab to match. This added a bunch of strength to the tail section, and is recommended.
I haven't traded notes with John for several weeks (actually I feel a little guilty because I owe him some stuff!) so I don't know where he stands with regard to actually marketing the twin tail version of the plane.
Walt
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Twin%2DAir_45_build_thread/m_1355375/tm.htm]Twin-Air Build Thread[/link]
Several of us RCU'ers traded notes with John from NE-A and he sent some prototypes of the twin tail kit for us to test. The rudders are actuated by flexible Sullivan golden-rod buried in the stab. So far it seems to be working well. As far as John and I know mine was the first one to fly, and I don't know if anyone else has completed and flown theirs yet.
By the way I used two standard servos (one for each rudder). The one that is also driving the nosewheel still drags a little at high rates and I am hoping it will loosen up with time, as the other one did. For a single servo setup a high-torque servo is very much recommended.
The only other thing that I changed and didn't cover too well in the build thread is the spacer block in front of the stab. If you look at the picture of the finished plane you can see that the block actually widens beyond the sides of the fuse in front of the stab. I extended the tri-stock under the stab to match. This added a bunch of strength to the tail section, and is recommended.
I haven't traded notes with John for several weeks (actually I feel a little guilty because I owe him some stuff!) so I don't know where he stands with regard to actually marketing the twin tail version of the plane.
Walt
