PlaneJames

My Feedback: (14)

I've got a video system I was thinking about putting in a Sr. Kadet - just to have some fun. However, people have already asked if I could do some "favors" for them if I get it up and running and the video looks good.

Before I go down this road, I was wondering about a few things:

If I make money at it, are there any rules/regs that I need to follow?
Where can I and can't I fly?
Are there limitations (insurance - AMA, altitude, size of plane, for hire or not)?
Who would regulate this? FCC? FAA? Other?

I'd love to try this out, but I don't want to get in trouble!

Thanks in advance for your help!

James

mr.rc-cam

Generally speaking, if you commercialize your R/C AP attempts then:

(1) AMA insurance is unavailable to you. Commerical insurance is difficult to get and is expensive.
(2) You will need to observe the FAA advisory on commercial activities.
(3) A ham license is not valid. You will need a commercial Part 90 license to operate your RF station.
(4) You can fly anywhere you have legal rights to do so. Generally speaking, that requires a 400 ft ceiling and authorized permission to walk on private property where needed.

Keep in mind that going commercial does not mean that your efforts involve charging a fee or make money. Even a registered non-profit agency is considered commercial.

Taking some photos or videos, for close friends, does not necessarily mean you are a commercial enterprise. Just keep it at the casual hobby level, do not charge a fee for your services, and observe safety requirements.

PlaneJames

My Feedback: (14)

Thanks - That's a very good summary! What if you use the current 72mhz channels? Are you still allowed to use those?

Thanks again!

James

Fubar-One

My Feedback: (1)

Yes.
I am not doing any video for commercial purposes (making money), my video flying is strictly for the fun of doing it and because I dig making the videos I have produced so far.
I am also using a Kadet Senior (ARF) as one of my AV platforms and it is flown on 72mhz. I would have used 50mhz for this but only because that is my prefered band to fly on, being a licensed Ham operator. Unfortunately, in this case, the 900mhz video system I am using didnt agree with the 50mhz control system I wanted to use so I had to go to 72mhz. My Wingo which carries a 2.4ghz video system is flown on 50mhz.
So, 72mhz is fine for what you want to do!

mr.rc-cam

In a nutshell: The part 95 rules, which govern the 72Mhz/75Mhz license free channels, state that you cannot charge for the use of the R/C transmitter. So, commercialized activities can use hobby R/C systems but cannot specifically charge for operating them.

IA-Flyer

Sounds like they pretty much have us under control….
In my wildest dream I didn’t think about 72MHz being a problem.

I emailed the FCC with similar questions, “when” they get back to me I’ll try to let everyone know what is required or if it is even possible to start a small time AP / AV business using video transmitting equipment. Life is too short to read all the FCC regs.
I wasn’t terribly concerned because I could always turn in my HAM license and use a Part-15 device, but I bet that would be regulated if used for pay also.

My question to them was two part:

1. What licenses would be needed (by myself) if someone else is going to pay to view the live 2.4GHz video downlink, and their approximate costs?

2. What license if any would be required (above the amateur operator license) if you were not selling the transmission in any way but selling pictures and video recorded and stored on the plane with separate device such as a digital camera or camcorder that does not transmit a RF signal.


If the FCC emails me back and will allow me to make a living, I’ll drive my plane over to the state FAA office and talk to them next.

CenTexFlyer

Hate to say this, but why poke a sleeping giant? There are no real hard and fast regs or license requirments on us as of yet. Why give them a "Why didn't WE think of that?" moment to start conjuring up all sorts of things to make our lives miserable?

IA-Flyer

I know Gene,
I thought of the same thing, but the only way I will do this is if I can do it with out living in fear of the departments that control this type of thing.
Everyone points to regulations and FCC rule areas but I’ve never seen a post saying these are the permits you need to obtain and rules you need to follow.
I’m not sure what it will take and I’m not mentioning anyone else or referring to anyone but my own plan for operations.
I guess I’d rather have their approval than to deal with the aftermath if I don’t have it.
If I get a list of expensive permits and procedures I will need to follow I’ll just drop the whole idea and continue flying for fun.

If they say it’s ok to fly with a HAM video transmitter and sell photos taken with a separate device because the transmission is not being sold I’ll report back

Jim

mr.rc-cam

The ham rules forbid use of any ham frequency when a commercial venture is involved and the use of the amateur radio transmission benefits the employer, employee, or other parties, in any way that aids the business. It does not need to be a for-profit organization. These sorts of rules are found in the Part 97 Regs. The study guides usually have several questions that relate to this too.

Otherwise, you would need a commercial license (Part 90) or must use low power license free (Part 15) equipment.

Contacting the FCC is rarely a good thing. The field offices are understaffed and rarely have the experience to answer these sort of questions. Worse case is they give you a verbal response you like, but is inaccurate. You might consider joining the ARRL (aarl.com) and use their legal assistance referral program.

IA-Flyer

[quote]ORIGINAL: mr.rc-cam

Yea, LOL
Kind of like emailing the IRS and asking,
“HI, I have a tax question because I don’t think I've been doing it right.”

I'm hoping the FCC gets back to me with the Part 90 licenses and fees that will be needed.
I'm not going to guess at the laws and rules involved and I'm very close to going commercial if they will allow it.

CenTexFlyer

I got my CORES number quite a while ago, and spent quite a bit of time trying to get a straight answer out of these troops. When I explained what I was doing, I just ended up getting bounced from one agency to the other, with each saying it wasn't in their jurisdicition. This was some pretty steady effort for awhile, until I decided that I just need to go start taking pictures and vids under my incorporation name and wait to see who popped up from behind a bush. So far, no agency representative has said BOO! to me.

IA-Flyer

Thanks again CTF,
I checked into CORES a little and I’ll do some more reading on it.
I emailed both the FCC and FAA last fall with questions and never received a reply.

Very sad, I’m hopeful I’ll at least get a reply this time.

CenTexFlyer

It does appear we have fallen into a beauracratic crack and can't seem to get out. The good news I guess, is that if no one takes up the regulatory torch, what are they going to charge you with?

Da-Winged-1

I dont want it to come to this but theres got to be some loop holes like IM not selling you the airial pics im selling you the expensive frames that come with ap in them. or im selling you the paper that there printed on?

Fubar-One

My Feedback: (1)

Im sellin the DVD its burned to...

IA-Flyer

I just wanted to do a quick follow up because I received my first reply from the FCC.
Unfortunately it was “exactly” like Mr. RC-CAM hinted it may turn out, and I didn’t get an answer to my question asking what license I would need to acquire or their cost, to do commercial work.

Me,
“
What special permits or licenses would I need from the FCC that would allow others to view the live video feed for a fee?”

Them,
“97.113(a)--No station shall transmit...communications for hire, or communications in which the licensee has a pecuniary interest.

Your idea is commercial plain and simple. If you want to be in the surveillance business using Part 15 equipment and frequencies, fine. As soon as it's an amateur station being used, the part 97 rules apply.”

I sent a reply asking again but haven’t received a reply yet.
Don’t worry I didn’t just say "You think?”

Contacting ARRL sounds like it’s going to be the hot setup.
Someone sent me a PM with a contact name for someone in the FAA (thank you again!) but I think I’ll wait until I know the FCC isn’t going to be a stumbling block first.

I don’t want to be classified as a commercial operation or developer and loose my entire hobby just because someone approached me and asked me to fly for pay with my hobby plane.

Anyway, I’ll report the results, however they turn out.

iflyj3

My Feedback: (7)

Asking a woman to have sex for money doesn't make her a prostitute. Accepting the money does!

Da-Winged-1

AI why do u want to sell live video feed? are u gonna do crop inspection for all those farmers? If so why not put a slight delay on it and send it to a tape so your not in conflict with part somthin somthin somthin of the fcc regulations

IA-Flyer

Thanks Dan, that’s a great analogy!
The thing that concerned me was the new FAA paper on “UA” stating that developing something for commercial use would put you under the RPV,UAV,UA rule. I’m hoping checking on the rules when asked to will not.
Going to Oshkosh? I’d like to get my dad over there at least one more time.

Da-Winged-1

I started out thinking the same thing, I didn’t think it would be against the rules to rent a bedroom in your house if you also had an amateur transmitter “voice” in your house.
I came to the conclusion that it would not be ok a while back, that’s why I’m checking into it…

If we were in a dedicated HAM frequency range I would guess that it just couldn’t be done. In the unlicensed 2.4GHz band there should be some kind of permit available.

Jim

mr.rc-cam

There is. It is license-free when low power Part 15 registered gear is used. In the USA, this stuff is under 1mW average power.

Higher power can used for commercial purposes under the Part 90 licensed regulations. The license is available to businesses and organizations for a reasonable fee. It is not available (nor is is it needed) for hobby use. The FCC site should have info on how to apply.

IA-Flyer

Mr RC-CAM , the more time I spent researching this the more I realized that was the case.

I called the FCC yesterday and received a reply to my email today.
Yep, Part-15 fine for fun or pay, Part-90 sticker equipment and license needed if more power is required for pay.

After looking at the prices of Part-90 video transmitters and regs, at least we can still have fun for the price of a HAM license.