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Digital camera in scale models!

Old 12-26-2005, 06:41 PM
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mR JoLLy
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Default Digital camera in scale models!

Well I usually reside in the Scale and Warbird sections of RC Universe, but need the assistance of you aerial photographers.

I am building a 1/5.33 scale Spitfire MKXI (Brian Taylor plans) which was used for photo reconnaissance during the second world War. I would like very much to mount an oblique camera which sits behind the pilot and looks over the port wing. If you look at the attached picture you can see the window for the camera at about 10 o’clock on the fuselage roundel.

I have absolutely no idea what to do in terms of a suitable camera, vibration protection, and how to trigger pictures. I would like the pictures to be of good quality with the camera as light as possible. Battery power will need to be remote to the camera to assist in maintaining the balance point of the model.

What would you folks recommend for this job?

Many thanks in advance.

JoLLy
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Old 12-26-2005, 07:13 PM
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kd7ost
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Default RE: Digital camera in scale models!

Interesting project. I never knew there was such a plane set up for obliques like that. What were they shooting pictures of do you know? I guess they could get the ground if they pointed the camera downward as much as possible and roll the plane to port.

1. What is you definition of "good quality" pictures?

2. How much would you like to maintain a scale cockpit?

3. What is you power plant going to be?

These all weigh into the choices you might make.

Dan
Old 12-26-2005, 07:31 PM
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kd7ost
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Default RE: Digital camera in scale models!

This might be the easiest option for you. It looks like you're using it as a scale feature that actually works. I've never used this camera but plenty have. http://blip.com.au/ There is a place to go look for customer pictures etc.

This camera can be mounted so it's upside down. That will put the main body of the camera down the fuselage and clear of the cockpit area. There are free picture downloads that will allow you to rotate the picture later. You can shift the pix 180 degrees and it will look correct that way.

This camera comes already modified for RC use. You just plug it into a spare channel and "fire when ready". No servo or linkage required.

It is not expensive.

It does not take high end pictures but takes fairly good ones. It is light weight.

Vibration isolation is a different issue and resolving that as well as motion blur are two other issues. Vibration isolation techniques can vary a little depending on your power plant. High frequency low amplitude vibrations are easier to deal with than low frequency high amplitide vibrations. Motion blur is resolved in the pilot to Airplane interface. (Flying styles)

Dan
Old 12-26-2005, 07:56 PM
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Tall Paul
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Default RE: Digital camera in scale models!

I've ,made an F-6D Mustang recon plane from a HOB P-51 kit.. using an AIPTEK 1.3 SD digital camera.. same as the Blip-cam.
Mounted to look out the left side per real life.. the plane began life with an OS 25FX, but was too much of a handful.. now it's a sloper.
Looks like this..
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Old 12-27-2005, 02:16 PM
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mR JoLLy
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Default RE: Digital camera in scale models!

Dan, Paul thanks for the input here. Sorry for the delay, I have had problems with internet access today [:@]

Lets answer some questions from Dan first:

1. What is you definition of "good quality" pictures?

If I were to say the Blip camera would possibly be slightly disappointing, but just on the edge of acceptable. I would prefer to be up at the 4 to 5 mega pixel area.


2. How much would you like to maintain a scale cockpit?

The entire cockpit will have to be scale. That gives us just over 4†from the rear cockpit to the centre of the camera lens. Most of the area behind the cockpit will be available, but the air tank will need to fit below.

3. What is you power plant going to be?
Power will be a Laser 1.80 spinning a 19†or 20†classic master prop.


I can immediately see the advantages of the blip camera ie easy to install, but I think I would be disappointed by the results at just 2 M pix.

To give some more info on the MKXI PR Spitfires: All guns and cannons were removed to make way for fuel tanks, they had retractable tail wheels which gave them an extra 5mph or so. Imagine you are over enemy territory and your only defence was speed! What metal these pilots had! Besides the oblique camera there were 2 standard cameras looking downward to the ground for mapping large areas of the ground. Typically taken as high as 20,000 feet. Attached is a picture taken with the oblique camera. Look at the text to understand more!

Back to the camera. Please pass further comments.


JoLLy
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Old 12-27-2005, 03:04 PM
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Default RE: Digital camera in scale models!

Laser 1.80? I see you're not holding back on the quality. That helps guide this thread. You're right, we don't want a 2 mp blip cam.

I don't know what a good camera would be for your application. There are probably 20 or more that would do the job just fine. You need it small and it needs to be able to get close enough to the window to see out well. The closer the camera lens is to the window the better results you will get. You won't notice a difference if the window is in the shade, but if the sun is bouncing in there it will reflect images from the camera front to the back side of the window and interfere with the shot. Closer is better but with that curve starting up around the turtle deck you'll just have to do what you can to measure out your space and decide what will best fit.

You can go to a camera store and start looking them over. You can still have the camera mounted inverted or at a 90 degree angle. Software will allow you to rotate it if you need to. If for scale reasons you can't do that, you'll just have to find one that's going to fit.

Research ways of powering the camera and accessing the shots. It might be a pain to pull the camera out unless you build a removable cockpit assembly to reach into the fuselage from there.

Vibration will be the biggest issue. The 4 strokers fit in that category of low frequency high amplitude. That’s the vibration that takes the most work to get rid of. Your application is not as bad as helicopter though. The difference is and where your tough part will be is how to make a really easy to access camera, in a vibration mount, buried in a fuselage. You do have your work cut out that’s for sure but I think it can be done. Read this article. http://www.hicam.com.au/art_vib.htm

You do not want a sugar cube. I recommend the latex foam rubber for soft mounts. It has excellent elastomeric properties. You need a material that’s kind of fluid in its properties but will still rebound as fast as you engine vibration. Mount the camera to a wooden plate of some sort that extends beyond all 4 corners. Keep the back of the camera as close as possible to the axis of soft mounting. You don't want the camera to be on a mount where there is a long lever arm from the soft material and the sensor. This will compound the issue. Just keep the mount very low profile and you should be OK.

Only use a small amount of that foam on each corner. I build my mount with a channel that is large enough that when I slide a camera mount into it, there is enough room for a layer of foam inside the channel (C channel) to surround the mounting plate. The more material you use, or the tighter you pack it in, the less effective it will be in a light camera. You have to work with the inertia of the camera you buy. Or make you mount heavier.

Dan
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Old 12-27-2005, 03:14 PM
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Default RE: Digital camera in scale models!

Oop's forgot to mention. We just use micro servos in many cases to activate the shutter. Scale builders can do excellent work with little functions. Lots of guys use hot glue or velcro or something to attach the servo. Although this does seem to work I shudder at the thought and build little mounts and levers to activate my shutter.

Many if not all little digital camera's shut down if they aren't activated for a few minutes. There are means to prevent that shut down from occuring. Let me know if you get to that point. We'll go look at a very slick device from Mr.RC-cam.

Dan
Old 12-27-2005, 09:34 PM
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Tall Paul
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Default RE: Digital camera in scale models!

With that much airplane volume available, any high end digital will fit..
The Nikon 7600-7900 has over 7M of image resolution, and is quite small.
It has a superb 640x480 video also.
A simple shutter trigger is usually just a mini servo that pushes on the shutter..
And with a large enough capacity SD card it can be turned on before takeoff and record 15 minutes of flight on a 1GB card, in video mode.
Still images would be more than 400 to fill up that card.
Old 12-28-2005, 08:02 AM
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Default RE: Digital camera in scale models!

Thanks for the response again. Sorry about the missing photo from my last post but I had connection problems again!! I think my ISP has finally resolved the issue [&:]

I am relatively new to scale but really do enjoy the subject. Take a look at my web site [link=http://www.hbc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/models/spitfire/index.htm]http://www.hbc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/models/spitfire/index.htm[/link]

The basic indication from you guys is that any small camera will be suitable, although I will need to be careful about weight. I understand the restrictions the camera will have looking through a side window. That will have to be investigated! The engine will have rubber mounts, so that should help a little. I know the type of foam you are talking about and I can access it here in the UK.

Paul the Nikon is a nice camera, but a little pricey for my application I think. Looks like eBay will have to be checked out later today!
Is there any brand I should avoid for this project ?? A quick look out there and I found the following:

Kodak C310 - 4MP and fixed lens. uses std AA batteries
Canon A400 or 410 - 3.2MP 3.2 zoom. uses std AA batteries.

I am open to further suggestions but this is the "price" area I want to be in. - So who is this Mr-Cam bloke
Old 12-28-2005, 12:44 PM
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Tall Paul
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Default RE: Digital camera in scale models!

Unfortunately quality and megapixels mean bux!
The Nikon 4600 has 4M, but no sound with the video, which is really nice to have.. about $160 locally. Basically the same camera envelope as the 7600-7900.
I've seen a Konica-Minolta at Circuit City , 8M, for $299..
Sonys, Casios, Nikon, Pentaxes all get good reviews for AP, but not all of them are small enough.
Casio makes some very nice small cameras, but they're in the $350 range.
e-bay is probably the best source.
Old 12-28-2005, 01:30 PM
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Default RE: Digital camera in scale models!

Paul thanks for the reply. I have a very nice digital camera myself but that is too bulky for the model. I have seen a Kodak C530 which looks nice. Fixed lens, and 5MP. Aimed at the point and press team it retails for £79 in the January sales. I also believe that once powered on the shoot button remains hot, which is a great help. The camera is good on MP and gets good reviews on the picture quility. Very little functionallity, but then I won't be needing any The outer lens is glass.

[link=http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/news/articles/story_5343.html]http://www.letsgodigital.org/en/news/articles/story_5343.html[/link]

Not sure what you think of the camera but I have made a box to it's dimensions and it will fit nicely.

As usual comments welcome.

UPDATE - Just purchased the Kodak C530 from eBay at a good price!
Old 12-28-2005, 02:49 PM
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Tall Paul
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Default RE: Digital camera in scale models!

I have a Kodak EasyShare CX7300. 3.2M. Fixed lens. It's 110x65x40... somewhat larger than the 530.. It's fittable in a larger plane.
The only going for it really was the price at the time, abt $100 if memory serves.
I use it as a walk-around when my Nikons are in service in planes.
Something about the software irritated me, so I deleted the software, and use what came with a Casio instead.
Old 12-28-2005, 02:51 PM
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Default RE: Digital camera in scale models!


ORIGINAL: mR JoLLy

- So who is this Mr-Cam bloke

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309395
http://www.rc-cam.com/
http://www.rc-cam.com/forum/index.php?act=idx

Dan
Old 12-29-2005, 03:03 PM
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Default RE: Digital camera in scale models!

Gents I think you have supplied me with sufficient info and links. First class info as always.

Many thanks for your assistance pointing me in the right direction

JoLLy

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