Gibsonia

Hi all:

I've just found this new forum for cameras. Haven't read much of the threads, so my apologies in advance if I'm duplicating any info.

I was just at Comdex, the big computer and IT show in Las Vegas recently, and there was a vendor selling "spy cams." They are extremely small, and the ones I saw at the show ran off of a 9-volt battery, had a 1000' range, and came with a receiver, all for less than $200. I saw some footage taken with the camera, and was impressed with the quality; not outstanding, but really neat for the money.

I just found this link, while not the camera I saw, shows the type of camera I'm talking about:

http://www.spysupplystore.com/tinycameras.html

I'm sure these have been talked about before here, but just my two cents; again, apologies if this is old news.

Regards,
Rob

OscarPilot

My Feedback: (7)

What frequency are they on? I did not see it listed on the website.

Gibsonia

I don't know. But if you type the word "Spy cam" into a Google search, you pop up dozens of hits. One of these spy cam vendors will likely put up the technical info....I just haven't done this yet.

OscarPilot

My Feedback: (7)

Cool stuff! This may end up being a big part of the hobby.

Cheers and Happy New Year,

Oscar

Gibsonia

Yeah, Oscar, I was pretty "jazzed" when I saw the demo of this technology at Comdex. Somehow, the literature I took from that particular booth has been misplaced; I need to find out the vendor's name, because they were selling cameras, with 1,500' range, complete with receiver, for less than $200! I know some of you out there are concerned about resolution, pinhole lens versus optics, and CCD versus whatever, but for $200, who cares? At the show, the vendor had a camera mounted on a tiny 4-hub hovercraft "park flyer" model, and the live shots it was taking were VERY impressive!

Again, I haven't snooped the internet enough yet to see who has what in terms of these cameras, but I know that someone, somewhere is selling them for less than $200, and these units are SMALL! If it can go in a park flyer, it'll go in just about anything. Please let me know if you find anything.

Rob

vortex00

My Feedback: (22)

I recently bought one of these. It's a really nice unit for $299. Transmits on 2.4 GHZ at a pretty good quality and is very small. Haven't tried it yet in an airplane.
Check out this review:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/reviews.ph...ew&reviewid=47

There are also some video clips there. Pretty impressive.

The company is at www.rctoys.com

Jack

lvspark

You can get the same ones off ebay directly from HK for about $30.oo for the camera set-up, and $38.00 shipping. I was looking into selling these myself, and could purchase them direct from the OEM in HK for about $19.00 per each, but then the HK people started selling them on ebay for almost the same money...

BTW, I do not believe they are legal to use in the USA. Their exact operating frequency has not been determined, and they are not registered with the FCC, and if those two things were met, you would still have to be a HAM to use it because of the power output of the transmitter. No problem for casual use, but if you caused interference, or an accident and the FCC got involved..... Fine or worse.

Very few sellers of this type of equipment are unaware or do not care if these are legal for use in the USA. Most of this grade of equipment is illegal.

Gibsonia

I just got off the phone with Zenon Dragan, who runs DraganFly Innovations, www.rctoys.com. They sell a remote camera called the "eyecam." He is really in the business of putting cameras onto aerial platforms for the military and police forces, but has been selling these eyecams to us hobbiests for about a year.

I called because I wanted to know about the frequency concerns brought up in this thread...are these cameras FCC-compliant, and do we need a license to operate? The answer is...it depends.

Zenon told me that his units operate in the 2.4 GHz range, which is FCC LEGAL, without having to be licensed. It operates at 50 milliamps, also legal.

The cheap "knockoffs" that you see on EBay from Asia are typically running at 434 MHz, which apparently is NOT FCC legal if you don't have an FCC operator's license. Some of these units also output at 100 or more milliamps, also questionable as far as being legal.

Zenon said that typically, units running at either 900 MHz or 2.4 GHz, 50 ma or below are ok from an FCC perspective. Now take this as second-hand information, as I learned this in a phone call from one individual (although I have absolutely no reason to doubt what I learned).

Actually, I'd invite Zenon Dragan to either comment here, or post information on his web site as to the legality of owning and operating his cameras.

lvspark

I am not here to sling mud, or be a judge.
I have used this same HK camera (1.2ghz @50mw) before with pretty good results. Anyone can throw a camera/transmitter into a plane, and get some fun video, but eventually, the legal questions have to be addressed.

Here is some good food for thought. Also allot of facts.


read this Please read it entirely.

It is obvious that p.c. electronics is very concerned and educated about the legalities. If you check the text on that site, and also inspect the hyperlinks, you will find most of the answers to your questions.

I do not represent p.c. Electronics in any way. I have had to search for the info in the fcc regs, and this p.c. Electronics site had good short cuts to info that was easy to access.

Gibsonia

Good stuff. I'll try to slog through the regs to see if/how it applies to these small camera/transmitters, but if anyone out there already knows, please let us know. It would sure be fun to spend a couple of hundred dollars to try this technology out, but probably not worth the risk if there is indeed a regulation prohibiting it's use for non-commercial purposes. Given these times of rampant litigation, I don't want to find myself on the wrong end of a stick, even for something as trivial as operating one these little camera units in a model airplane.

mr.rc-cam

The camera and transmitter may draw 50mA of current combined, but that is nearly meaningless. The FCC rules generally deal in RF power (watts, milliwatts, etc.) at the final RF amp.

A "license free" (Part 15 approved) transmitter's power is measured in volts/meter @3meters. In the USA, these video transmitters have an RF power that is essentially less than 1mW (<0.001W).

If you do not see a Part 15 registration label on the transmitter, then it is NOT legal to use unless you are a licensed ham and it is transmitting on the approved amateur radio frequencies. Modifying a Part 15 registered transmitter voids the license-free status.

BTW, If you post the FCC ID number of your wireless transmitter I can offer a bit more data on its power specs and operating restrictions.

Mluvara

My Feedback: (10)

The foriegn HK cameras being advertised with a output power of 200mW or 800mW only state that they are on 1.2GHz and that the associated receiver is tunable from 900MHz to 1.2GHz. I don't know if they are FCC certified and my guess is that they probably are not. I am trying to get one cheap enough to see for myself and are in the process of studying for my HAM license. I would only use it after I receive the license and if it meets spec. One of the versions has a detachable TX, so one could still use the small camera if all else fails.

It appears to me that there are some frequencies on the HAM band that one can use for video 1240MHz to 1300MHz (23 cm band). It is my interpretation from the FCC and ARRL rules/guidelines that if these cameras indeed operate in the above specified band, or possibly the 33cm (902-928 which is ISM), a HAM operator could use it without an FCC ID. From what I understand, HAMs have much freedom in using modified equipment, more power to acheive their communication, etc because they understand the rules and such that is required and have due dilligence in their use of the bands.

Anyways, I'm personally trying to answer the above with help from friends who currently posess their HAM license and with the guide of the FCC rule book.

Michael

Gibsonia

I'm wondering if each piece of equipment has to have the FCC sticker, or if one sticker applies to the group...

mr.rc-cam

Technically, on license free equipment (FCC Part 15), only the transmitter needs a registration "label" that shows its FCC Type acceptance ID.

Occasionally a video system mfg will register their receiver as well. This is due to incidental radiator issues. But if it is registered, it's FCC ID will be different than the transmitter's.

Shredz

Michael,

Since you are already hooked up with the HAM crowd, could you ask one of them if they have a Canadian counterpart that knows where to look for this in the Canadian (CRTC) regs?....at least I think that's where I'd look for them...

I've been thinking about this topic for a while, but haven't done anything about it....too many regs to get through... and I could use a starting point.

That is.....if you have the time Thanks if you can do it.

Ted

mr.rc-cam

Canadian Ham Info: http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/SSG/sf01862e.html

RIC-2 Regs:
http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/SSG/sf01226e.html

Please note that "license-free" system related info is not discussed in the ham regulations.

F1992

My Feedback: (4)

Mr. rc-cam have biggest experience and he is profy and his statements have "weght"!
For dillettante as I and may be for others... there are simple rules:

If output =50mv or less License FREE!
If more 50mv need license.

About "label". Mr. rc-cam are right again.
But for rc pilot won`t o onlyf big problems by using of transmitter without label. Problems can be for manufactory (into US)

But when you using trancmitter without licence (for >50mv) can be became problems, which you will remember long time. (As far i know)
Thanks.

mr.rc-cam

For clarification, the "50mV" spec (50mV/meter at 3 meters) is not the same thing as "50mW." These are two different measurements of RF output power.

Part 15 equipment uses the mV/meter method since the regulations are concerned with true radiated power (transmitter power + antenna gain). Ham equipment is rated in watts (or milliwatts, whatever the case may be) -- Hams like to know the native RF power spec, as driven by the final RF amp.

In a nutshell, FCC Part 15 registered transmitters (license free) cannot exceed 50mV/meter, at 3 meters, which is less than 1mW of radiated power into a 1.6dBi antenna. Probably closer to 0.5mW (0.0005W).

More RF Power info: http://www.hamtv.com/info.html#fccrules
Part 15 power specs: http://www.hamtv.com/pdf.files/15.249.pdf

Mluvara

My Feedback: (10)

I think Mr Rc Cam answered it for you. I understand that there are some reciprocal agreements between Canada and the US on HAM issues.

Good point to make out. Also, field strength is usually measured in dBuV per meter. Here's a link to FCC part 15.231 which has some of the limits listed with and without dB terms. http://www.radiometrix.com/pdf/FCC-231e.pdf

It is also important to distinguish an intentional radiator and unintentional radiator. One's computer (without a wireless card, etc) is an unintentional radiator (not meant to be a transmitter) and is subject to to emissions testing. In fact, in the US, all electronic devices (except under 1MHz clock freq) have to be tested to their portion of FCC part 15.

However, one offs and prototypes of units have some leeway under the FCC rules. But, if you interfere with something else, then you have to correct it.

Michael