Onboard Camera Questions
 

I need some honest opinions and some equipment suggestions. I am currently building an AC-130U Spectre gunship. I want to install a camera inside the cockpit with a pan capability. I also want to install a pod under the right wing with a pan and tilt capability. I want the capability to view the view in real-time while flying. I plan to have a second receiver onboard. This Co-pilot will control all the "onboard options" on my project. I want my copilot to have a pair of monitors to view the onboard cameras. I want the monitors to have the capability to record to SD cards. I plan to build a platform for the Transmitter and monitors. Camera size does not have to be micro, but I'm still concerned about adding too much weight.

Questions:
1- Will a 2.4Ghz wireless camera system interfere with the 2.4Ghz Spectrum radio system?

2- If I use multiple onboard cameras , will I need to 2 individual camera frequencies, such as (900Mhz & 1.2Ghz), or (1.2Ghz & 2.4Ghz)?

3- My budget is not limitless, but I want to know where to start looking for quality componets. Aside from these sites, what other companies offer quality video equipment (with sound)?
http://www.helihobby.com/html/micro_video_camera.html
http://www.microwireless.net/
http://www.blackwidowav.com/

Any input is welcome. I like the camera that Blackwidow AV offers (KPC650 High Resolution 12v Color CCD Camera), but is this wireless & 2.4Ghz?

Mike

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

THis is the mechanics I will be mounting under my wing: http://www.dpcav.com/xcart/product.p...cat=253&page=1 I will build a custon fiberglass cowling to conceal the mechanics.

I just need a camera, transmitter, receiver, and recording device.
Mike

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

1) Yes... 2.4ghz camera will clash with 2.4ghz radio TX. As the two scans for a free frequency, they will cross path and that means... well lets just say you will be using lots of glue for the blues.

2) Yes/sure... If you plan of flying by goggle while the co-pilot view simultaneously, then you will need not only two cameras, but two video TX as well. Both could be on 2.4ghz and on different channels. Note: A/V RX-TX (audio/video receiver/transmiter) has 8 channels for you to select. TX & RX 1 could be on ch 1, TX & RX 2 could be on ch 8.
Using different frequencies is not a bad idea, actually staying on the safer side but might get costly.

3)Yes and No... The first FPV shop sells CMOS and they do not have the clear detail nor good AGC compared to a CCD, stay away from it!!!! The second site sells a KX131 with a Lawmate 500mw TX & RX.. it's what we use ;) The third site is the very well respected "Bill", one of the "fathers" and first to do this and yes... he knows his stuff!!! But you can also check out (Mark Harris/Daniel Wee/Thomas S) www.intelligentflight.com or (Zoltan) www.nghobbies.com ,(Wilson) www.hobbywireless.com (Wade) www.futurehobbies.com

The KPC650 is just a camera. You must provide and connect a transmitter to it. You have to keep in mind these cameras ( I.F. Camera, KX131, KX141, KX151, KX171, KPC650 etc..) are really meant to be hidden high end surveillance cameras. We just add a proven A/V TX & RX to this and have some real fun with it! :D

Happy FPVing!!!

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

JMSTECH,

This has been some great information, thanks! I think my main problem lies in the frequency. I need to come up with a solution to avoid any interference with my 2.4ghz flight control system. Is there a 5.8ghz setup available for onboard video systems?

I will start with a single onboard camera, and then build from this point. I can see I'm taking on too much from the beginning.

Mike

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

Well Mike you can go with 5.8ghz but I have heard two different stories in regards to this frequency for telemetry. One I heard it works fine but not as good for long range, second I heard it is a bad frequency to use because its' beam is too narrow and does not handle multipathing as effective as the lower freq. I wish I personal experience on this so I can learn more about it myself, but the one who is using all the frequencies is OxxyFX (Zoltan) of www.nghobbies.com . He is experimenting with it along with many other fine goodies.

So Mike... tell me more about your gun ship... sounds very interesting! :D A engineer buddy of mine has a tiny airsoft machine gun and he keeps looking at and weighing the bare components that makes it tick. He figures it would be no problem to mount it on his plane LOL!!! It's a no-no thing to do but he wishes to have a all out FPV air fight with me. To see who can shread the most monokote and balsa before plunging from the sky :D I figure a flat patch 8db antenna (wider reception beam) sitting as close to the ground pointing straight up should allow us to effectively fly around with out adjusting the antenna all the time to get good reception. Here is my video of what I am talking about. http://www.vimeo.com/371745 Again I flew by goggle with the 8db patch 1 foot off the ground (uses the ground to reflect reception) and pointing almost straight up into the sky. I never had to touch the antenna and I flew around quite nicely ;) :D

John

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

JMSTECH,

If 5.8ghz is not reilable at this point, where does this leave me? SHould I go with a 900 or 1.2 system? I will not be flying with video goggles. My camera(s) will be strictly for recording my flights. My flights will all be line of sight. If I can't see it, I might have a problem.

My gunship is based on the 123" wingspan C-130 by Palmer plans. Its approximately 97" in length. I decided to modify the basic fuselage to match a AC-130U Spectre gunship. It has every possible option I could install: mockup guns(25mm, 40mm, & 105mm), full lightin package(nav, strobes, & landing), retracts with gear doors, smoke system, paratroopers, working tail cargo ramp, working fowler flaps, and gear brakes. All I need is a camera in the cockpit and a camera to record my paratroopers jumping out. I have documented everything in the Airplane/twin&multi engine/ 132" Palmer Plans AC-130. My build has now gone into its 14 month. I estimate another 18-24 months before I'm ready to fly. Even though this is a long time, I need to get my wires installed for my camera setup. I want to have a plug&play setup on my wing camera.


With all this said, I still need a camera system that provides good overall video.

Mike

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

WOW MIKE!!!! That is ONE AMAZING PLANE!!! Anyhow I think you better go with a 900Mhz video set up to avoid a problem with your 2.4Ghz radio gear. It should be ok to have 2-900Mhz A/V TX on board and on two different channels to handle the dual camera set up you seek, but consult the distributor before you buy. Here is one from Vova's shop ( http://www.rangevideo.com/index.php?...products_id=24 ), he's pretty fast at replying emails. ;) Now I REALLY look forward to watching this exciting video of yours, descending, dropping paratroopers and the whole nine yard!!! Be sure to post it on www.vimeo.com because they allow much larger video sizes and higher resolution for us audience to truly enjoy the fullness of any videos! :D Perhaps PM me to let me know so I can race over to watch the vid!!!!!

Just to be on the safe side, make sure you keep the A/V TX far away from your planes' radio RX. Insulate the camera and A/V TX from any vibrations your gas engines will produce (with foam or rubber). Vibration can cause ripples to show up in your videos, not a pleasant thing. Here is a vibration test I did ( http://www.vimeo.com/598268 ), just a note in real life you would not bash the TX like I did but this video gets the message out about vibrations and my Airwave TX is an older/discontinued model. They really are a bullet proof unit!!!

Also use a separate battery to power the video gear because EMI can travel into the sensitive video gear. (camera-A/V TX) ...Again cause horizontal ripples or static.

Since you have a large carrying capacity you may go with either the KPC650 camera, but personally I go with the Intelligent Flight camera because it's the only camera out there that is modified for flying in the sky. Example: Very fast ACG (automatic gain control) - wide dynamic. Which means she will quickly adjust when your plane is pointing into the bright sky and then into the dark ground and when flying into the sun, you will still see details behind the bright light!!! Very important if you want to fly and rely on video or simply to make a good detail video. Also the I.F. camera has night capabilities which if you have the courage, fly at night :D

Here is my test videos: (part 1) http://www.vimeo.com/613521 (part 2) http://www.vimeo.com/618590

John

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

JMSTECH,

I'm going to keep this simple for now. I plan to make provisions for just the wing camera. If/when I want to add the second camera in the cockpit, it will be easy at a later time.

I will be purchasing the recommended 900Mhz 500mW transmitter http://www.rangevideo.com/index.php?...products_id=24 . If this compatible, I also want to this dual receiver http://www.rangevideo.com/index.php?...products_id=26.

The KPC650 camera looks good, but does it record any audio? Or, can a microphone be added and connected to the transmitter?

I think I have a tentative plan. ;)

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

As for the MIC, ( http://www.rangevideo.com/index.php?...roducts_id=113 made by Thomas of RC-CAM and sold by Vova ) you have to buy that separately and connect it to power, ground and input on the A/V TX. Good luck and I look forward to the final results when you are done :D

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

Mike,

I would advise you to look closely at the 2.4 Spektrum documentation on the JR site. Spektrum technology divides the band into 80 channels. When a transmitter fires up it scans to find two free channels and then transmits on both. The reciever monitors both channels so if one channel drops a packet on one frequency it does not matter as the other picks up the slack. The system would have to lose multiple packets on both channels simultaneously to suffer a control anomoly. This along with the much higher frequency than 72Mhz is why 2.4gig. technology is safer than 72Mhz. The 2.4gig video transmitters that I am aware of all transmit on a selectable "fixed" frequency. If the video fires up before the Spektrum there will not be any frequency contention as the Spektrum will not select the channel that is on the frequency being used by the video system.

Now, if you fire up a fixed frequency video transmitter (or any 2.4gig xmitter) at a flying field where multiple Spektrum airplanes are already flying will you stomp on a channel? I posed that question at the JR tent at Joe Nall last spring? They told me that the FCC requires systems to be able to cohabitate and tolerate each other's existence. In my personal experience I have seen unexplained video interference but never any Spektrum hiccups. I advise you to take information found in forums like this to point you to the right answer for you to verify yourself. I would not rely solely on opinions from posters like myself.

I am flying a Great Planes Giant Big Stik with a Spektrum system controlling the plane. We use a second 72Mhz system to run the camera pan-tilt-zoom-fire system. We have a 200mw BWAV video downlink for a thru the lens view. Been flying this way for over a year with no radio problems. I have seen plenty of video stream interference but sources for that are almost infinite and many unknown. We capture DV onboard so streaming video quality is not an issue. The camera operator only needs to see well enough to point the camera.

Here is another perspective. If a video transmitter actually did stomp on one of the frequencies that your Spektrum is using the only consequence of that is that you would then only have a single channel control just like the 72Mhz guys.

The Futaba systems use a frequency hopping technology that is different from Spektrum. They will indeed land on the fixed frequency of a video transmitter periodcially. I am not too familiar with these systems but I believe that the hop rate is so fast that it tolerates a collison merely by moving on to the next frequency slice. You would have to find a Futaba expert to discuss their fine points?

If someone can convince me that my BWAV system changes frequency after I physically select it on the device then I would be open to a new understanding of how this all works?

Good Luck with that Gunship. It looks reat!

Bill

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

Bill,

THanks for your input. I always had that lingering thought about 2.4Ghz systems. I will be using the JR Spektrum system for my flight controls. Like you, I will have a second RX (72Mhz) to control the camera(s) and other flight options. I have a new idea how/where to mount my cameras. I may mount them in the external fuel tanks below the wing. I could have one facing aft on the right wing, to capture my paratroopers. I could install one facing forward on the left wing, to capture the flight. I even have plenty of room in the nose to mount a camera. More to follow on this later.

Bill, what camera are you using? Do you have audio? DO you have any pictures of your camera setup? I'm trying to gain as much knowledge about inflight video systems. Any and all opinions are welcomed. All comments are taken under consideration, but I am following up with manufacturers. I also plan to do some extensive testing. Now that you mentioned the FCC cohabitation requirement, I will get a few guys at the field to help me try to glitch my 2.4Ghz flight system on the ground before I do any flight testing. If there is any possible interference, I will just remove the onboard video. I wont risk losing a plane.

Mike

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

Mike,

I am using a small Sony MiniDV cam for my primary camera. I am pulling the video off the A/V out into the BWAV xmitter. Presently I am building an electronic switch from www.rc-cam.com to use a radio channel to switch to a second camera. That camera is a KX-131. Its sole purpose will be to point at the in-flite amp/watt/voltmeter. Powered by 2-6000mah Lipos spinning a 160 outrunner. We did gas earlier and have now switched to electric. Too much random interference to get high quality video via downlink. Relying on onboard capture for the good stuff (DV). The miniDV camera captures stereo audio. The BWAV xmitter has a mic and passes that audio to the ground.

We have the big PTZ on the bottome of the fuse. Using an old fluid tripod head for a mount. It shoots rearward with 140 degrees of pan and 90 degrees of tilt. Got a little servo on the zoom button to control zoom. The big camera can be swapped out for a Nikon 5400 for stills. Same setup tapping into the video out. Our bird with the big camera and mount is weighing in at about 20lbs.

I think you could have a challenge with long video cable runs in shielding them enough from ignition and servo RF noise. I did. I will attach some of the old gasser mount pics too. We crashed the electric on its second flight. (Too low and slow on final turn.) I have a couple of rebuilding shots I can send. We made many flights last summer with the gasser and two very encouraging one's with the electric last fall. I can add some more as we progress.

Here is a low rez clip from the E-Stik.
http://www.rcuvideos.com/item/JNPLHRFSGFM0SLTC

Bill

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

Mike,

I forgot to mention that the BWAV system I use has 4 selectable frequencies on both the transmitter and reciever. Theoretically you could run 4 separate camera systems each set to a unique frequency. (But as discussed previously each will occupy a slice of the 2.4gig band.) Many of the advanced guys posting here use high powered systems as they are actually flying their planes out of sight with their video downlink. Your application is similar to mine where my pilot is flying with a normal RC configuration. The plane will always be fairly close. I have been getting by with a 200mw BWAV system and a small omni-directional disc antenna. Here is a picture of my transmitter and antenna. This antenna does not have alot of gain but it is very unobtrusive. I started with the rubber ducky antenna that came with the unit but did not like the fact it had to fasten directly onto the transmitter. Had it pointed downward from the fuselage and broke it with a stray landing off the strip into in the weeds. The disc might blend in nicely on your gunship.
http://www.astronwireless.com/produc...?id=346&cId=53

Bill

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

now that is a very interesting find!!! I know a guy who used one similar but it was a flat patch, which was not the same internally since it was very directional and was useless once it was not directly over his head, but this one you showed us is great!!!!!! :D

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

JMSTECH,

If you look closely in the small video I posted a couple of messages up you can see this antenna on the bottom of the fuselage. The left (red) camera RCA plug has fallen down out of the fuse in front of it so it is slightly obscured. We only have two flights in with this setup. This 3db disc antenna worked great for both. We changed too many varibles to completely credit the antenna for the great performance. We had converted from an RF spewing ignition magneto gas engine to a big electric motor. The PTZ mount was all new and so was the Sony camera. Somewhere among all those changes we dropped out a bunch of video interference. Previously I had been running a big 8db patch hanging on the bottom of the plane. I would like to attribute the improvement to the antenna but am guessing that it is more probable that I have less stray RF without a spark plug in the plane and improved wiring techniques. Flights this spring will tell the tale.

I do want to point out that the video I posted was rendered from MiniDV tape onboard the plane and not from the video downlink. While I was pleased with the downlink quaility I was not recording it at the time.

Bill

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

Very interesting Bill! You say improved wiring techniques, what did you do? I braided all my wires (servo, video etc..) and I should use ferrite rings but so far I see no need to use it since I like to keep my ESC radio RX far from my video stuff, working so far :) .

BTW I knew you recorded that video directly with your miniDV, the video quality was simply too good! :D I'll be watching your progress Bill and keep up the fabulous work!!!!

John

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

John,

Thanks for the kind words. I must say that the best thing about this sport is the willingness for all to share what they know. I really appreciate what I have learned so much from others on these forums and that free knowledge directly saves time and money. I just want to return the favor by sharing what I find.

The fact I am running a PTZ mount increases my potential for problems. The additional servos in proximity to the camera and transmitter increases potential for interference. Early on I reduced some video interference by using independent power sources. When I put the video transmitter on its own battery I got better video. I am not smart enough yet to build in the proper power filtering circuitry from a single source. Maybe later? My first PTZ used 5/32 wire and nosewheel pivot bushings to facilitate pan and tilt. The small pivot radius, relative loose tolerance in the bushing, and long lever moment of the camera all allowed for some aggrevated camera vibration. I was trying to shoot through the vibration with a very high shutter speed. This worked to an extent but another factor crept in. The video out connector for the Nikon 5400 is an 1/8" stereo jack. Static tests on the ground looked good but once airborne interference would abound. I first thought it was stray burst RF I now think that vibration in the actual jack was the primary source. I had much better results with cameras using tighter fitting connectors like DEANS or RCA. Another possibility is perhaps that the circuitry in certain cameras just cannot handle the high levels of vibration. In either case the reduced vibration of the electric motor looks to have made large improvements in video quality. The Sony DV uses a tight fitting DIN connector. Similar to what you describe in your setup I have separated the video signal as much as possible from the motor and ESC. In fact My video transmitter is about 10" down the fuselage toward the tail away from every thing else. I have not yet performed a flight with the Nikon on the E-Stik. It is on the list. In the end I may have to switch to another camera for stills or perform surgery on the nikon and bypass the jack. I expect this post might give Mike a few more things to think about for his AC-130.

Mike said that he was thinking about some pan tilt functionality too. Have you guys considered mixing a pan servo on a spare channel of your main receiver to the ailerons? In that manner you could automatically pan left or right with corresponding aileron movement? The camera would look into the bank every time without having to stream video to the ground. Just a thought.

Bill

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

Hey Bill as for your question on the pan function mixed with the rons, well it has been done in the past before Head Tracking. Works quite well!!!! ;)

Hey I too seperate my power for video and plane. I'm working on a PCB platform that will hold my camera and act as a regulated power supply (filtered with capacitors with large ground planes to cut noise) and will have built in plugs for video and audio. Kind of a all in one thing in one package. Hey who knows... maybe Range video might copy my idea and market it? :D

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

Mike: Great engineering and building.
I noticed on this thread a lot of wireless video information which is great, but would like to know if anyone can suggest an SD card video recorder and video camera system. I am currently using an Aiptek SD camcorder which is working OK, but would like to use a separate video camera (for pan and tilt) and plug it into an SD card video recorder. Anyone have suggestions for video camera, SD recorder and power supply? Is anyone currently selling this kind of system wired as a package? Would be nice to be able to locate the camera anywhere and plug it into the recoder.

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

the best place to get information is over here

[link=http://www.rcgroups.com/video-piloting-fpv-rpv-469/]RCGroups FPV[/link]

RE: Onboard Camera Questions
 

Im building my first FPV setup and have a question about frequecies. My plane is 2.4 , Im goin with 5.8 for my Tx/Rx for video . My question is.. what should I use for my 2 servos in my pan/tilt ? Im using servo city's medium size pan/tilt. Can I use another 2.4 or maybe go with the 72? ... Any ideas welcome THANKS!!