Anti-stall flow directors - anyone..??
#1
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Anti-stall flow directors - anyone..??
Hello, I have in my files an interesting article from RCM magazine April 1987 issue written by Don Sobbe (see pics). He describes an easily added gadget which is said to delay stall of the wing root and apparently used on some full size aircraft.
So simple and yet so effective also on model aircraft according to the article but I have so far never, ever seen a model aircraft use this device....have you..????
I plan to add this gadget to my current canard project on the bench in my shop but before proceeding I would invite anyone out there to share experience or viewpoints on this addition...Thanks....and Cheers/Harald
So simple and yet so effective also on model aircraft according to the article but I have so far never, ever seen a model aircraft use this device....have you..????
I plan to add this gadget to my current canard project on the bench in my shop but before proceeding I would invite anyone out there to share experience or viewpoints on this addition...Thanks....and Cheers/Harald
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RE: Anti-stall flow directors - anyone..??
I have never seen these on full scale before. Normally we want the root to stall first so that you have aileron control through the stall.
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RE: Anti-stall flow directors - anyone..??
It's also got far too small an area to do more than just cause turbulence.
His would not have been the first thing that was presented in magazines that had questionable theory and results associated with it.
His would not have been the first thing that was presented in magazines that had questionable theory and results associated with it.
#4
RE: Anti-stall flow directors - anyone..??
In that application most would call it a "Strake".
To me, it seems it is an actual Vortex Generator from full sized aircraft applied to the model's fuse.
To me, it seems it is an actual Vortex Generator from full sized aircraft applied to the model's fuse.
#6
RE: Anti-stall flow directors - anyone..??
I agree with the previous posts.
My opinion is that the description of the text is correct.
Although less efficiently, that device follows the principle of the LE slots, which accelerate the airflow over the top of the wing.
However, the area that the device covers is too small to generate a substantial improvement.
Besides, there is a strong circulation in the wing-fuse intersection, which generates drag, but energizes the airflow enough as to delay the stall by itself.
You can try it, but don't expect spectacular results.
My opinion is that the description of the text is correct.
Although less efficiently, that device follows the principle of the LE slots, which accelerate the airflow over the top of the wing.
However, the area that the device covers is too small to generate a substantial improvement.
Besides, there is a strong circulation in the wing-fuse intersection, which generates drag, but energizes the airflow enough as to delay the stall by itself.
You can try it, but don't expect spectacular results.
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RE: Anti-stall flow directors - anyone..??
I think that the likely purpose of those plates is to create turbulence at high alpha ... which will then be felt by the pilot, as elevator "buffet". In other words, they are there to amplify the warning of an impending stall.
Chipmunk has similar devices.
Chipmunk has similar devices.
#9
RE: Anti-stall flow directors - anyone..??
Here's an example on a full size RV-8, with a more complex design to accommodate full-scale dimensions.
The accompanying text:
“Check out the VGs and the flow director at the wing root on this nice RV-8. The builder claimed that the top speed was unaffected and the stall speed was 5mph lower, IIRC. He also said that the flow director reduced the tail shake at stall. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not if it reduces stick shake.â€
The accompanying text:
“Check out the VGs and the flow director at the wing root on this nice RV-8. The builder claimed that the top speed was unaffected and the stall speed was 5mph lower, IIRC. He also said that the flow director reduced the tail shake at stall. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not if it reduces stick shake.â€
#10
RE: Anti-stall flow directors - anyone..??
Gyro... I could see how the flow director on that RV could work. At high angles of attack, there is probably a vortex coming off the fuse edge just ahead of the wing. (I.E high pressure below the A/C and low pressure above the wing with a blunt edge for vortice generation.) The flow director would tame that vortex stopping the tail plane buffet from the vortex. The Vortex Generator tabs you also see there work a bit differently, actually creating a vortex to help keep the airflow attached to the wing allowing a lower stall speed. I had VGs on my Horton STOL C-182 and the angle of attack that airplane could fly at was impressive.
That RV airflow director reminds of an F-18 problem that was resolved with a vane to break up a powerful vortex that was actually causing damage to the rudders. I was visiting the production line in St. Louis when they were retrofitting all the planes with the first generation solution: solid machined aluminum vanes. It was a serious issue. Check out:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0176.shtml
That RV airflow director reminds of an F-18 problem that was resolved with a vane to break up a powerful vortex that was actually causing damage to the rudders. I was visiting the production line in St. Louis when they were retrofitting all the planes with the first generation solution: solid machined aluminum vanes. It was a serious issue. Check out:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0176.shtml
#11
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RE: Anti-stall flow directors - anyone..??
Thank you all for interesting - although a bit mixed - responses to the "flow director" idea. The reason I consider to add these on my next ship is that on my previous push/pull canard(see pic) I had three deep stall/flat spin "landings"....but fortunately with only minor damage. One of these stalls was even inverted with both fins broken in the process. Theory goes that the tractor prop slipstream prevents the canard foreplane from stalling and instead you get a deep stall...[:@]...!!
I usually go for a canard foreplane loading of 1.5 but this particular ship would not stall/mush normally....unless foreplane loading was increased to 2.00...! That was a surprise to me since none of my previous canards have behaved like that. Do not ask me why since the setup was rather "normal" with symmetrical NACA 0010 main wing at +0.5 degrees and a flat plate foreplane at +3 degrees.
Therefore my thoughts about anti-stall flow directors........Cheers/Harald
I usually go for a canard foreplane loading of 1.5 but this particular ship would not stall/mush normally....unless foreplane loading was increased to 2.00...! That was a surprise to me since none of my previous canards have behaved like that. Do not ask me why since the setup was rather "normal" with symmetrical NACA 0010 main wing at +0.5 degrees and a flat plate foreplane at +3 degrees.
Therefore my thoughts about anti-stall flow directors........Cheers/Harald
#12
RE: Anti-stall flow directors - anyone..??
Harald,
Wow, that is quite the machine! It does not surprise me though coming from the home of the Vigen!
One thing I would try if I were you is to move the foreplane back a bit further. I know it sounds counter-intuitive to make that moment shorter, but doing so should increase the foreplane loading a bit more and reduce the foreplane's pitching effect (a part from simple drag) at high AOA where you are experiencing deep stall. Does that make sense?
Wow, that is quite the machine! It does not surprise me though coming from the home of the Vigen!
One thing I would try if I were you is to move the foreplane back a bit further. I know it sounds counter-intuitive to make that moment shorter, but doing so should increase the foreplane loading a bit more and reduce the foreplane's pitching effect (a part from simple drag) at high AOA where you are experiencing deep stall. Does that make sense?
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RE: Anti-stall flow directors - anyone..??
I think that the likely purpose of those plates is to create turbulence at high alpha ... which will then be felt by the pilot, as elevator "buffet". In other words, they are there to amplify the warning of an impending stall.
Chipmunk has similar devices.
Chipmunk has similar devices.
Strakes are used for a variety of reasons - improve handling in slow-flight, alter spin characteristics, etc. The Cessna 303 had strakes added above and below the stab/vertical fin joint to preclude icing in that area.
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RE: Anti-stall flow directors - anyone..??
Canard lover,
I think you might want to consider reducing the size of your canards. Having a smaller area might cause the canard to stall before your main wing which is one of the main reasons for using them in the first place. If you can get the canard to stall first your main wing won't get the chance and this should prevent the deep stall/flat spin you experienced before. Either way keep you speed up.
Scott
I think you might want to consider reducing the size of your canards. Having a smaller area might cause the canard to stall before your main wing which is one of the main reasons for using them in the first place. If you can get the canard to stall first your main wing won't get the chance and this should prevent the deep stall/flat spin you experienced before. Either way keep you speed up.
Scott
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RE: Anti-stall flow directors - anyone..??
ORIGINAL: Lnewqban
I agree with the previous posts.
My opinion is that the description of the text is correct.
Although less efficiently, that device follows the principle of the LE slots, which accelerate the airflow over the top of the wing.
However, the area that the device covers is too small to generate a substantial improvement.
Besides, there is a strong circulation in the wing-fuse intersection, which generates drag, but energizes the airflow enough as to delay the stall by itself.
You can try it, but don't expect spectacular results.
I agree with the previous posts.
My opinion is that the description of the text is correct.
Although less efficiently, that device follows the principle of the LE slots, which accelerate the airflow over the top of the wing.
However, the area that the device covers is too small to generate a substantial improvement.
Besides, there is a strong circulation in the wing-fuse intersection, which generates drag, but energizes the airflow enough as to delay the stall by itself.
You can try it, but don't expect spectacular results.
I put these on a Sig Kobra many years ago. It flew so much better with them on!!! The results were more than I expected. They made the plane so much more stable, and smooth.
#17
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RE: Anti-stall flow directors - anyone..??
We've got one of those installed on the outer surfaces of the nacelles' on one of our King-Air 90's. It is used in conjunction with Vortex generators that are mounted on the outer wing panels, bottom of the stab leading edge, and the hinge-line of the rudder.
$4,000 modification that did nadda for slow flight or stall performance
$4,000 modification that did nadda for slow flight or stall performance
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RE: Anti-stall flow directors - anyone..??
ORIGINAL: thailazer
....That RV airflow director reminds of an F-18 problem that was resolved with a vane to break up a powerful vortex that was actually causing damage to the rudders. I was visiting the production line in St. Louis when they were retrofitting all the planes with the first generation solution: solid machined aluminum vanes. It was a serious issue. Check out:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0176.shtml
....That RV airflow director reminds of an F-18 problem that was resolved with a vane to break up a powerful vortex that was actually causing damage to the rudders. I was visiting the production line in St. Louis when they were retrofitting all the planes with the first generation solution: solid machined aluminum vanes. It was a serious issue. Check out:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/planes/q0176.shtml
I always wondered why the F18's had that stuck on vane. At one point I thought it may be a special antenna for something fitted to the plane later and hence why the odd looking mount. I hadn't realized that the kludgey looking thing was a fix for an aerodyncamic issue.
#19
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anti-stall flow diverters added to Hots
Howdy, some 8 years later I finally added a pair of "flow diverters" to my Hots and I can tell you they sure make a BIG difference..!! This ship - now with added end plates on wing tips - is virtually impossible to stall. I can slow it down close to walking speed before it drops one wing.
So my next project will be to add such a "flow diverter" to the main wing of my next canard project..! Anyone interested..??
So my next project will be to add such a "flow diverter" to the main wing of my next canard project..! Anyone interested..??
Last edited by canardlover; 03-02-2020 at 01:46 PM.
#20
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Just another opinion, OK?
It's no surprise here that a plane like this will slow to a walking speed prior to stalling a wing (if it drops a wing at all, some will drop nearly straight down, without ever dropping a wing completely). A straight leading edge, lots of wing area, likely light weight, oversize control surfaces to help maintain control, and my guess is, a CG that's neutral to maybe a hair tail heavy. All those are going to add up when it comes to low speed handling for this plane, just like those exact same features add up to do about the same thing on a well built Edge 540. The Edge (and other very similar air frames) will actually warn you of that stall by rocking their wings from side to side prior to stalling nearly straight ahead....
My point here is that if you enjoy flying like this, you might want to see what you can do with a late model, state of the art Edge 540 air frame. They've become pretty well known for similar low speed handling and you may be in for a pleasant surprise. That said, I get it if you prefer to strike out on your own with something like what you are talking about. Just tossing out an option. -Al
It's no surprise here that a plane like this will slow to a walking speed prior to stalling a wing (if it drops a wing at all, some will drop nearly straight down, without ever dropping a wing completely). A straight leading edge, lots of wing area, likely light weight, oversize control surfaces to help maintain control, and my guess is, a CG that's neutral to maybe a hair tail heavy. All those are going to add up when it comes to low speed handling for this plane, just like those exact same features add up to do about the same thing on a well built Edge 540. The Edge (and other very similar air frames) will actually warn you of that stall by rocking their wings from side to side prior to stalling nearly straight ahead....
My point here is that if you enjoy flying like this, you might want to see what you can do with a late model, state of the art Edge 540 air frame. They've become pretty well known for similar low speed handling and you may be in for a pleasant surprise. That said, I get it if you prefer to strike out on your own with something like what you are talking about. Just tossing out an option. -Al
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#22
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The "why not" would be that an Edge already flies just fine at low speed (most accepting it as one of the best air frames available when talking good low speed manners), without the added weight and complexity of the baffles you enjoy.
Similar effect on my flying buddies who mostly refuse to see just how slow their planes really can fly, or fly anything but the "suggested" CG. Many confessed to holding their breath just prior to one of my planes touching down.
Myself, just a young 'un at 68, that's been flying RC since the late 60's. Been focused on teaching myself 3D for the last 7 or 8 years now. Still suck, but having a lot of fun pushing my abilities nearly every time out.
No intent to offend, just sharing my experience with planes like your Hots (which have always been lot of fun) vs. the newer designs. Flying big horizontal figure 8's at 3' or less out in front of me, as well as on KE (at much higher altitudes, but still very close in). The newer designs can really enable some spectacular flying. Sharing that concept is the reason I wrote. I get it if you aren't interested, but thought maybe you might be. -Al
Similar effect on my flying buddies who mostly refuse to see just how slow their planes really can fly, or fly anything but the "suggested" CG. Many confessed to holding their breath just prior to one of my planes touching down.
Myself, just a young 'un at 68, that's been flying RC since the late 60's. Been focused on teaching myself 3D for the last 7 or 8 years now. Still suck, but having a lot of fun pushing my abilities nearly every time out.
No intent to offend, just sharing my experience with planes like your Hots (which have always been lot of fun) vs. the newer designs. Flying big horizontal figure 8's at 3' or less out in front of me, as well as on KE (at much higher altitudes, but still very close in). The newer designs can really enable some spectacular flying. Sharing that concept is the reason I wrote. I get it if you aren't interested, but thought maybe you might be. -Al
#23
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I think thailazer described the function of these "baffles" very well in post #10 above:..."creating a vortex to help keep the airflow attached to the wing allowing a lower stall speed." Sure thing, the effect of these "baffles" on the Hots exceeded my wildest expectations so I will certainly keep them despite the "added weight and complexity". My Hots is currently a "test bed" for evaluating these "baffles" intended to be used later on the main wing of my next canard project.
If you look at post #7 in below thread you will see my efforts to avoid the dreaded main wing "superstall" frequently experienced on canards:
canard foreplane loading..??
Congratulations ahicks for being 68 years young, I recently passed 75 and started CL flying in 1957 with a Webra 1.5 ccm diesel...those were the days..!
If you look at post #7 in below thread you will see my efforts to avoid the dreaded main wing "superstall" frequently experienced on canards:
canard foreplane loading..??
Congratulations ahicks for being 68 years young, I recently passed 75 and started CL flying in 1957 with a Webra 1.5 ccm diesel...those were the days..!
#25
Thread Starter
No hard feelings ahicks.....! Supply a pic of my latest canard creation hanging "in the balance". It is a composite of some "left-overs" from earlier crashed or decommissioned planes. Wing is from a Chipmunk and foreplane from my now crashed FSW canard....! **** happens..!
Profile fuse is new and also my use of push-pull 4 stroke engines(Saito.50/56) So what remains is to add the "baffles" in front of main wing and some more paint
. Wish me luck...THANKS..!
. Wish me luck...THANKS..!