MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

Again, this is where your "Logic" becomes illogical.

Ok Matt, let's try this:

You are in an elevator on the 10th floor.

The cable breaks

Just before the elevator hits the ground, you jump up as high as you can.

By your logic, you will survive.

You keep insisting that the plane is somehow stuck to this conveyor belt. Why not just say that there is a magical rope tied to the tail?

Once again... Hopefully for the last time.

If you are going to match a hypothetical belt to a practical airplane, then the belt must comply with the same principles of physics that the plane is forced to comply with. Otherwise it's giving the belt an unfair advantage - like giving the airplane an unacceptably powerful engine. Right? Glad you agree.

So realistically, there are only two things holding the plane to the belt. Gravity, and Friction. Follow me so far?

Since the Friction involved is Kenetic, the more speed there is between the two surfaces, the less friction is involved.

Therefore:

As the belt tries to compensate for the for the ever forward moving plane, the belt will develope more speed. Still with me?

As it developes more and more speed, the friction becomes less and less.

The belt is losing it's own battle!

The harder it tries to hold back the plane, the less influence it has on it... And eventually the plane takes off, looks back, and laughes at the belt, the guy who designed it, and his mother.

Now again, if you want to add hypothetical glues to the belt, you might as well tie a hypothetical rope to the tail - both of which give the belt an unfair advantage.

If you still can't comprehend this, I suggest two things:

1. Take a course in physics
2. Pay me in small bills

No, you lost the bet

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

<groan> So is this a "no"? We got all of the way through this and it is a "no"?

In the future if you are not up to taking such a big bet just say so in the first line, it will save a lot of typing :-)

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

No to what???

Ok, in plain simple English...

1. Yes, I will accept your bet.
2. Pay up, you lost

Liberator

Minn,

Now watch the wiggling start.

I tried to get the focus to a repeatable experiment and was told it was not the same thing. But I still think it was.

Again.

3D foamy, held by the tail and the belly, dremel tool spinning up each wheel in the opposite direction of forward travel, throttle advanced to full speed. How much will the reverse spinning wheels have to do with the plane once it is let go?

That would be nada.

mr_matt

My Feedback: (10)

Let me guess, you don't do a lot of betting, do you?

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

Only, like in this case, when it's a sure thing

Craig-RCU

I hope you guys arn't really serious about betting such a lage sum of money. I would hate to see somebody get taken advantage to the tune of 10 grand. That's just not right. I mean, we're hear to have fun and learn and not bilk eachother out of major coinage. I'm sure that nobody would feel good about that win or loose. Can I convince you guys to reduce that sum to a more reasonable level? How about 10 USD instead?

rmh

Once the horse has been beaten to death - at least bury him

britbrat

Considering that it was a 10 cent question -- that would be more appropriate.

MinnFlyer

My Feedback: (4)

Oh hell, I wouldn't really take his money, it was too easy

Craig-RCU

Having known the pain of making a bad bet myself, I asked for the bet to be reduced to lessen the the blow of hurt pride to whomever has made a bad bet here. The one who can back down from a percieved sure-thing to spare someone undue pain and hardship is a hero in my opinion.
On this winding road that we call life, there are many horizons that we must traverse to acheive self-knowledge. Entering into a bad bet is really a lesson about self-control. A lesson that I had to learn more than once. Most recently, I guess that I wanted to impress the new guys at work with my accute reasoning abilities and trap-like memory. So I bet them a princly some of a meal fit for a king at the fine dining establishment of Mac and Don's supper club (5 bucks) that they could not rehang a door that I had deemed unhangable because I had tried, and discovered that the hinges on the door were mounted wrong. While both of them knew I was making a foolish bet only one accepted the bet. I knew in the back of my mind somewhere that they themselves must have been the ones to take the door down in the first place, but my pride in my mechanical know-how over-rode that. It turned out the original carpenter had hung the door by using the hinges incorrectly but made it work anyway. So, I lost the bet and felt like the fool that I was for letting pride get in the way of understanding the obvious. It ruined any impression that I was trying to make but it ruined the relationship more between me and the one who accepted the bet because I felt that he did not look out for me like a friend would. Whereas, after talking to the one that didn't take the bet, I found out that he was very torn about whether of or not to step in but didn't because the bet was so small. He was looking out for me like a friend would. So I ask you two to swallow pride and look out for eachother like a friend would also to avoid any hard feelings.

rmh

My uncle Sigmund mentioned similar studies ----

w_benjamin

actually, it won't fly.

rmh

Uncle Siggy also discussed failure to accept reality--

Liberator

What did he say about Trolls?

w_benjamin

The reality is you'll break something on the plane before you get it to fly.

Liberator

Please re-read the entire series of posts on both threads where it has been discussed to death.
(Thwack Thwack Thwack) Sound of dead horse getting beaten.
Then if you still disagree, realize your wrong and then we are all back to even.

w_benjamin

Actually, not only have a read all the posts here, I have read the postings on a number of other sites concerning this. The depth and argument of this has been very interesting to say the least. Given the parameters of the question, however, it isn't very difficult to solve.

Liberator

I will agree with you there, it was not very difficult to solve.

w_benjamin

The bottom line is the energy for the plane is being countered by the energy for the conveyor. Look at it from a different perspective. Start by turning on the conveyor first. This causes the plane to move backwards. By using the thrust of the plane to counter this, we can bring the speed of the wheels up to match the speed of the conveyor. At this point, the plane is stationary with the wheels spinning beneath it. Increasing the speed of the conveyor requires you to increase the thrust from the plane to compensate. From this you can extrapolate the results on a linear scale 'til the plane is at full throttle and is still stationary.

Gremlin Castle

My Feedback: (14)

Surely you jest.[8D]

CHassan

My Feedback: (13)

Now that depends on how the question is written. IF it says it will equal the speed of the plane, then say 20 mph this way 20 mph that way wheels go faster blahh blahh blahh, watch now as I climb for my next maneuver!!

w_benjamin

"The conveyer belt is designed to exactly match the speed of the wheels at any given time, moving in the opposite direction of rotation"

w_benjamin

If the plane can take off, then please tell me what the wheels are doing as it is taking off. Turning? Skidding?

Liberator

(sigh)

One last time for those that "read" every single post and STILL don't get it.
Ignore the wheels, they mean nothing in relation to flight. When the prop is at full speed, where is the prop wash going?
Are you seriously saying that has no effect on the plane?

I refuse to hash it out again. If you seriously can't grasp the concept, there is no help for you. No offense intended, but this truly has been beaten like a rented mule quite literally to death. I have no patience left for denial. Which by the way is not just a river in Egypt.