scale only 4 me

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He wasn't Hotdogging, He as training for an airshow demonstration flight.. Every aspect of these demonstration flights are planed and gone over before they get in the plane... If anyone thinks these guys just get in and start hotdogging, you've watched TopGun too many times.

I guess we'll have to disagree on what an Idiot and a Patriot is,,, I know one when I see one

DLFallin

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Zulu,

Well, I am a Soldier for over 25 years. I am currently deployed to Iraq fighting for my Country. I hate it here, but I would do it again and again if called upon as I have many times in the past. I didn't watch the video cause I have flown with more of those hot dogging idiot pilots you so called him and they have saved my life along with hundreds before me because of the courage and confidence that only some have to push these planes beyond the evenlope. I can't count the number of times that these so called "idiot Pilots" have had to make combat landings in order to keep from getting shot out of the sky. You say and believe what you want, but without pilots like that one that died and "wasted" so called billions of your tax dollars, you wouldn't be on the site right now saying the things that you know nothing about. I stand up for that pilot and thank him for the ultimate sacrifice.

I want to thank the rest of you for understanding that humans do make mistakes and he was a human that was doing a job most couldn't or wouldn't do.

David

roger8568

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I don't know what nationality you are MR 91zulu nor do I care. But here are the facts. Yes that pilot was hot dogging BECAUSE HE WAS PRACTICING FOR AN AIR SHOW. That is what you are supposed to do entertain the crowd. I am an ARMY aviator and can tell you after deploying 4 deployments and have gotten shot at in a C-17 while arriving in to Iraq. Being Airborne and jumping out of C-17's. That plane is more thin capable of doing the turn in question. How about questioning the reason that airports allowed three aircraft to destroy buildings with thousands of people in them. You are wrong about RC C-17 airplanes not flying like that. go to youtube look up RC C-17. so much for your theory about not hot dogging a model like that. As for your loyalty to the United States. I volunteered to serve my country And I am prepared to die for it. so thank you for your small amount of yearly contribution aka taxs so I can defend your right to talk about things you have no clue about. Also the military has regulations for flying and all maneuvers are sanctioned by those regulations. That pilot also ended up ditching that aircraft. A fellow rc modeler saw it go in. if the pilot had not ditched it there then he would have ended up in a small community. I feel the loss of my fellow brothers but think about what would you have said if he hit that community. If you and your family lived in that community. by loosing his crews life he saved many others. "O" but I am sorry you are more worried about your DA** tax dollars.[sm=thumbs_down.gif]

ram3500-RCU

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Lots of emotion here. Understandable. But let's not try and now turn this pilot into a hero. A guy who irresponsibly raced his car down a city street, lost control, but managed to miss some kids on the sidewalk before hitting a tree and killing himself and his passengers could hardly be honored for his "sacrifice" could he.

This pilot clearly pushed his aircraft into an unsafe attitude, lost control, then, based on what you know about it, apparently made the best of a very bad situation in the last couple seconds.

Airshow flight is not to exceed the safe parameters of the aircraft in question. Airshow flight is done with discipline and procedure and aircraft limitations as paramount considerations.You know this to be true. It can't be any other way or we would not have airshows. Routines are carefully put together to demonstrate the aircraft's capabilities within safe limits. Exceed these, and bad things usually result. We have seen it time and time again.

Too steep a bank angle cancels lift, and even more so in a turn. This is a very basic fact every pilot learns in the very beginning of his training. And with a faster roll rate, it is easy to overshoot that limit with such a large aircraft. With no altitude for safety, that limit becomes a very very critical 'do not exceed'. No mystery here. It is very fortunate this was practice, and not a live airshow. These pilots were not heroes, they were very good pilots, that made bad decisions.


Again, I love aviation. Many in our family were or still are pilots. A couple of us do RC building and flying as well. You either get aviation, or you don't. My wife doesn't, but we all get loosing a loved one in a tragic accident. My heart goes out to all those who knew and cared for these these guys.

Tjetfire94

Wait, why are we arguing this now when it happened way back in July?
BTW the pilots of every C-17 Demonstration has got sereous balls to fly that beast that low and that steep, especially with your left hand. However those who say it is going too low and too slow, remember that the C-17 is a huuge beast, and even though it doesnt look like it, it is scooting allong pretty fast. They were supposed to fly that low, otherwise what good is an airshow if you can only hear it? (with exception to the raptor, that one is LOUD) However the cause of the crash is that the pilot accidentally G-stalled the aircraft. This is when you pull Gs, the stall speed increases (stall spd. times the square root of the # of +Gs you are pulling. This is the same thing that Matt Hall did on the Red Bull air race in June.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFSvfrTq2JU&feature=related[/youtube]

Either way you cannot speak of any Airforce Pilot, or rather any Military officer as not being heroes. They volunteer to put their lives on the line to defend our Country and that is true heroism.

DLFallin

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Well, yes there is a lot of emotion when I see Airmen, Soldiers, Marines and others lose their lives everyday here. I know what this Pilot had to tell himself every morning in order to continue to do his job. I am not making this guy a hero for making a mistake. I am making him a hero for having the courage to do what he did everyday of his life. I am glad you love aviation. I don't think you are alone on this site. Everyone here loves it undoubtly. However, loving it and living it are two different things. Many people love their freedom, but when it comes down to it, most are not willing to die for it. He was. He may have made a mistake and it cost the lives of I think five good Americans. However, what he did everyday makes him a hero whether you like it or not.



David

ram3500-RCU

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Mincing words. You well know the context that I was referring to. His last seconds, not his career, the thousands of PIC hours he probably had, or his life choices. That he loved what he was doing, being a professional pilot as he was, I also have admiration for. I try for a balanced and objective view of these things, is all I'm saying with all due respect.

roger8568

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Hero no human yes. Hero is a person who is scared to death but goes into battle anyway. I've unfortunately known many hero's who never came home. There is only one person in this blog that disrespected the men and women who will become hero's and those who has already became hero's. Yes there are plenty of emotions when someone speaks out of there thoughts and not there experiences. Let one who has never seen a brother or sister who never return home and not be saddened. Those who disrupt a military funeral by throwing things and spiting on the procession. Let that person realize he is not a true American. For this country was defended and won through the blood of the American Soldier. and supported by the American patron. I thank all those who support the military. God bless and Merry Christmas. From me and those who defend our country.

cloudancer03

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sad you would call the pilot an idiot.are you a typical jersey friver and speed recklessly on the parkway .that pilot had many hours and was carefully chosen to fly that demo .sometimes as humans we make errors sometimes they are fatal.I doubt he intended to crash costing the taxpayers 184 million.thats a drop in the bucket against what the yahoos in wash did last week ..try feeling some compassion for the crews families.I guess it takes all kinds..

Quikturn

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I think we can all agree that it's a terrible accident. Military pilots are trained to fly those airplanes to the edge of its flight envelope. When I was in the Navy we would lose at least 2 aircraft on each WestPac deployment.

From my observation, looks like the pilot was using lots of rudder to turn the c117. Too slow for effective spoileron usage. It appears that last rh turn was too steep of a bank angle for the rudder to get the airplane out of the turn.

Tall Paul

I know the people that developed the flight control system on the C-117.
It is fool-proof, but not damn fool-proof, as they have commented on this incident.
It is similar to the B-52 crash.

NCIS

Zulu,

You have no respect for the victims , their families, and the veterans. You need to go on another forum where they don't fly for our Country!!! I can't believe you said such a thing when our men lost their lives whether it was pilot error or not. Get a grip and grow up![:@]

Barry

91zulu

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[:@]

91zulu

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I give respect and compassion when it is due, like the soldiers that`s in wars they don`t want to be in but is forced to do so. Many only join the military because for them it is a way out of poverty. For those folks I have respect and compassion for, the cowboys and war mongers NO. So not all soldiers are happy and trilled to be there as some of you seem to think. I know this first hand I lived in the areas where some of these folks come from not gated communities upper middle class, dad and grand Pa were ex military served in all the wars blah,blah,blah.
Know the old saying. There are old pilots and bold pilots but there are no such thing as an Old Bold pilot. I did not make that up someone else did. I wonder why.
I get the military folks stick together and it comes under the PATRIOT banner, but you know I was told a long time ago, a mistake is when one puts on a shoe NOT knowing there is a snake in it and gets bitten. However if you are in the forest and there are signs around warning you to shake your shoes out BEFORE you put them on and you don`t then get bit. That aint no mistake its plain foolish. I`m most certain he knew the limits of that C117.

Iflyglow

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I agree with you totally. My father is Retired Military had constantly preached you are responsible for your actions. He also gives credit and respect when it is due. The Pilot in commands poor decision making skills however you want to word it cost them all, along with there families and the tax payers who have to cover it.
I for one do not doubt one bit that the pilot knew exactly what the planes capabilities were and pushed the envelope to far showing off, and this is the end result. It would be interesting to see what the Pilots past flying record looks like, since the similar B-52 crash's commanding Pilot had a rep for his personality and behavior.

Tjetfire94

I see your point, however that is no way to talk about the airmen who have lost their lives in this accident.

btw its a C-17, not C117

cfircav8r

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Military pilots are not your average pilot. What do you think the criteria for military pilots is? Someone willing to take risks, aggressive and driven to be better. This is what wins air wars. Not a bunch of by the book bus drivers. Does this create problems during non-combat related missions? Yes, but that is the price we pay to have those traits. Would you want a guard dog that was friendly or aggressive? Just don't be surprised if he bites you when you get lax. You want the world to be better, it starts with you. A great man once said "Be the change you want to see in the world." You don't like the way things are, get in there and change them, but don't disrespect someone you know nothing about. You have a single snapshot of a long life and have passed judgment on a man. Could you stand up to that scrutiny every second of every day?

91zulu

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True indeed . I was going to mention that. One of the crewmen that was on that fatal flight wife did and interview and stated that her husband complained several times about the recklessness of that pilot and no one listened. After the incident the crewman`s wife wanted answers as to why the pilot was allowed to continue flying and of coarse she got stone walled. Basically you know the military way of saying { WE MADE OUR DECISION AND WE STAND BY IT ,NOW F U GO AWAY} Most times these pilots hold a higher ranking than their crew that means they are at his mercy. If they complain , well you know how that go.
Now I know there are great pilots in the military, I met some of them at airshows. Very Very sharp bunch of folks. But I also know there are some that have no business being in the cockpit. Some are there off the clout and privilege of parents and gran parents. One known is MR Decider GEORGE BUSH. How in the world he end up in the cockpit, DADDY and oil money that`s how, and I know he aint the only one. He is as sharp as a marble.

DLFallin

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Ram 3500,

I truly apologize if I offended you in any way. Not my intention at all. Not my intention to offend anyone at anytime. I do understand what you were saying and if he was indeed hotdogging instead of following proper procedure, then shame on him. As you said, it is truly sad that we lost lives in this incident. I know many of these guys first hand and trust them with my life daily. Zulu brought up good points on how some people are in this for the fame and to hotdog. Not my type of Soldier/Airman/Marine or Sailor. I wish you all a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. Again Ram, I apologize if my words offended you.

v/r
David

jeffo

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My son is a F-16 crew chief.He was telling me what the aircraft was doing was tactical take offs and landings.When these planes go into hotspots or less desireable air strips they have to be able to do these tight maneauvers.The aircraft are perfectly capable of doing them.He said choppers are the worst,hang on to your stomach.After meeting a lot of our nations finest,I wouldn't be quite so critical.They emphasize safety above and beyond more than anything.Just maintaining these air craft there are many hazards these service men have to deal with on a daily basis.Believe me it's not for the pay. One proud father-Jeff

Thunderbolt47

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Zulu, No one is forced to join the military in this country, poverty or otherwise. Sorry, that dog doesn't hunt.

HoundDog

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What's that saying "There are Old Pilots and there are Bold Pilots ... But there are No "Old-Bold Pilots". This is true for all Avaition including RC'ers. Most of U have too much time on your hands ...
"GO FLY" or GO BUILD Something"

jcowart

Comparing a C17 to a B52 is about like comparing an F-16 to a Beech Baron. The C17 is an incredibly manueverable aircraft. It was designed for short  take off and landings, steep climbs and rapid descents.
I really don't understand why people will applaud what the Blue Angels or Thunderbirds do and then criticize another pilot for doing the same thing in a different type aircraft.
Saying that, chances are good that the pilot may have made a mistake but unfortunately, that's just the nature of airshow flying.

Jerry

roger8568

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Questions regarding his man hours in the Aircraft is a valid point. I can tell you from experience, If a crew member does not want to fly with another due to safety issues. There is an safety investigation and the crew member has the right to refuse to fly with that pilot. The interview with the wife of the crew member, is like wearing roasted turkey perfume and interviewing a dragon that has not been fed. she is angry at the military and most likely coxed by lawyers on what to say to get sympathy from out side sources. Her husband put on the flight uniform and stepped into that aircraft voluntary. I put on my uniform and step in to my aircraft but if I don't like who I am flying with for safety reasons I report it. I have seen 4 soldiers get relieved from flying status due to there lack of safety, 3 of them has returned to duty after retraining, 1 was moved to another job. And yes after each investigation there was a book of paperwork and a lot of interviews. the military takes aviation safety very seriously.

ram3500-RCU

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All aircraft, ALL, from a Piper Cub to a C-17 have bank angle and speed limitations and minimums in a turn at a given altitude. Wings loose lift as they are banked. This is physics. You can go to U-Tube and see time and time again, both full scale and model, exceed these limits and minimums and crash. And it matters not how big, small, military, civilian, heavy or light, they are. Each qualified pilot is to know and respect these limits, whatever the circumstances of his flight. This takes skill, education, and discipline. Remove any one of those three, and you have a potential problem. These types of accidents happen for a reason. Humans. We can be thankful that in aviation, we have systems designed to help humans make good decisions and that most of the time, they do.