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  1. #1
    cfircav8r's Avatar
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    Spin training

    How many instructors teach spin training to their primary students. How many pilots received spin training and at what point of your training. There are two schools of thought on this and am curious of what the majority do and their reasoning.


    P.S. i would make this a survey, but I have no idea how.
    The three most useless things to a pilot, the sky above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel on the ground.

  2. #2
    stuntflyr's Avatar
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    RE: Spin training

    I was taught before I soloed. In fact loops, rolls, hammerheads and spins were taught before solo. (Many of us were underaged so it was fun and gave dad something to do while we were waiting for the age requirements.)
    I only instructed advanced courses and they were to teach unusual attitude and spin recovery to corporate flight departments. A Beech E33C was used.

    One chief pilot of a large aerospace manufacturer's corporate flight department that had never been inverted did well, but asked for another flight just to become more comfortable.

    I'm old, all of this happened in the 70's and 90's respectively. My kids don't want to fly and I've been out of the training business for years, so it'll be interesting to see what others input.

    Chris...

  3. #3
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    RE: Spin training

    I received my Privates in the early 80's and never had a spin lesson
    # 93 in Club Saito; Carl Goldberg Ultimate Brotherhood # 12; Pulse brother # 2;Hellcat Brotherhood #8;P-47 Thunderbolt Brotherhood #18

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    RE: Spin training

    99% of instructors now will not spin a plane unless it is commercial or CFI training. Most are scared of it. You have to find that 1% or get some duel at an aerobatic training place.

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    RE: Spin training

    I learned to fly in the mid fifties just after the requirement was deleted but my instructor still gave spin training.I stoped instructing in the late '90's but I taught spin reconition and recovery when instructing in the Cessna 150,152 and 172 but not in the Piper Pa-28 series.

  6. #6
    cfircav8r's Avatar
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    RE: Spin training

    I was one of only two instructors at the time that would spin a student where i taught in Houston. The two owners of the school would send all of their students to me if they showed an interest or if they were having difficulty with stall training. I found that most students that had trouble with stall recognition and/or recovery would do amazingly well after spin training. It's not for everyone but has some real benefit in helping a student not just how to recover, but how to recognize the signs and control inputs that lead up to a spin. Reading a book and discussing it are a poor substitute for the major feed back you get from causing an aircraft to get into a spin, and the confidence that you can recover easily.
    The three most useless things to a pilot, the sky above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel on the ground.

  7. #7

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    RE: Spin training

    USAF pilot training. Spun the T-37 for years as both a student and an instructor. We did spin prevent training and spin recovery training. (And I almost forgot - I also flew spin training in a Schweitzer 2-33 glider as both a young cadet and as a cadet instructor. I also had spin training in the 1-26 glider. Nothing like being 19 years old with a year of glider training under your belt, and spinning on your first ride in a 1-26 - first ride was solo since no two-seaters were made.)

    Later I went on to receive "departure" training in the F-16. Basically it was spin training, but since the F-16 didn't technically spin but rather it "departed flight" and then would enter into a deep stall, either inverted or upright. I actually used this method once or twice to get back to controlled flight. It was a good program and the stall/spin characteristics were well know for the airframe.

    Spin training in the T-38 and the AT-38 was not provided. They didn't spin much and instead found themselves in a massive descent associated with a deep stall.

    Kurt

  8. #8
    SteveD-RCU's Avatar
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    RE: Spin training

    I learned to fly back in the early 80's on a Super cub on floats.We did incipient spins with it,which is about 1 rotation.Then on Cessna 150's we would do full spins 4-6 rotations.It was fun.
    Steve Daly
    MAAC #14007
    Challenger2 C-IECP

  9. #9
    cfircav8r's Avatar
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    RE: Spin training

    Now the question. Do you think it helped with your ability to anticipate, recognize, and prevent a stall and maintain yaw control, or not?
    The three most useless things to a pilot, the sky above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel on the ground.

  10. #10
    SteveD-RCU's Avatar
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    RE: Spin training

    I would have to say yes,especially in a climbing turn.Your more aware of the potential stall situations,you watch your airspeed more .
    Steve Daly
    MAAC #14007
    Challenger2 C-IECP

  11. #11
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    RE: Spin training

    early 70's training, got spin and incipient spin training (and recovery) and was encouraged to practice on my solo flights...mostly in a 150. I remember one that I did not enter correctly and entered a spiral dive - now THAT taught me a lot!!!!
    All I ask is for a chance to prove that money can\'t make me happy......

  12. #12
    cfircav8r's Avatar
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    RE: Spin training

    I had one student try to start the spin too early and we did a great snap roll and exited with the nose just about 10 degrees down. I wouldn't have thought that old 150 had it in it to do that nice a snap.
    The three most useless things to a pilot, the sky above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel on the ground.

  13. #13
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    RE: Spin training

    I was one of those students that had problems with stalls. Basically I was terrified of falling. My first commercial instructor tried to get me over it by doing spins in a 150, did an hour of left and right three turns but all that did was teach me recovery. I stll had problems with the actual straigh ahead stall. Second instructor actually fixed it by making me fly for the whole hour with the stall horn on untill I could actually feel and identify the buffet and the break. He also taught me (after 60 hours in the air) I didn't actually have to let the airplane fall! When it breaks, lower the AOA and fly out of it! Funny that it took four instructors and 60 hours to finall find that out.
    Spitfire Brotherhood #6
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  14. #14
    cfircav8r's Avatar
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    RE: Spin training

    Everyone learns differently and everyone teaches differently. It can be difficult to find the right fit for some problems. It is rarely anyone's "fault" it just takes the right teaching style meshing with the way a particular student learns. Some instructors are great at varying their style to match a student, a better name for these is "teacher."
    The three most useless things to a pilot, the sky above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel on the ground.

  15. #15
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    RE: Spin training

    Spin training was taken out of the PPL training cirrculum in the mid-70's IIRC. Nonetheless, I would train any student who showed an interest. We had a 150 Aerobat, but a 150 will suffice.
    I might not be very good, but I'm fun to watch!

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    RE: Spin training

    I received my flight training back in the 70’s and spin training was optional with my instructor. When I had about 8 hours of dual time we agreed to do some unusual attitude and spin training. At that point I had about 10 years of flying RC and was familiar with spin entry and recovery with my models and was comfortable and looking forward to this phase of my training. We were doing our training on a well used 150 and my instructor did the first spin to demonstrate the technique. He held it for 3 turns and recovered. His instructions to me was to make a clearing turn to make sure that there was no one was around us or below us and then pull the nose up and reduce the throttle until we stalled and then hold up elevator and apply full left rudder and hold it for 3 turns and then release the rudder and push forward on the controls. I questioned him and ask if he didn’t mean to center the rudder and release the back pressure on the elevator. He emphatically said no, I was to push forward on the stick. I said okay and we entered the spin and held it for 3 turns and I dutifully centered the rudder and pushed forward on the stick. Of course we were already nose down about 35 degrees and forward on the stick pushed us inverted. Immediately all the cigarette ashes in the ash tray and all the dirt in the floor flew up in our faces and his brief case that was right behind his seat went airborne and busted out the rear window. He took the controls and recovered and screamed at me and wanted to know what in the hell was I trying to do? I told him that I was doing exactly what he said and I had even questioned him about it. It cost me about $450 to have the plane repaired and I found another instructor for the remainder of my flight training.

  17. #17
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    RE: Spin training

    Regent, lol! You did what you were told. 

    I had similar. I was a primary student in the Army flying club in Korea (K-16 airbase) and had a Korean instructor. We went out for stall training, and I had read an article in Flying mag about using rudder to raise the wing during stalls, as opposite aileron could induce a spin. Had the 150 nose-high, as the stall broke I tromped on opposite rudder. Next thing I knew, I was watching the ground come up from overhead. We had snapped left, went over on our back, and Mr. Kim calmly said, 'I have the airplane' as the airspeed went through redline. He did a slow recovery to level flight, flew back and we debriefed. He never got upset, just wanted to know what the heck I was doing. Great instructor. 
    I might not be very good, but I'm fun to watch!

  18. #18
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    RE: Spin training

    ...I found the incipient spin training very useful in flying RC....part of my slow flight / incipient spin training was to keep the wings level with rudder. ......something I found very useful flying long wingspan airplanes like the cub at scale speeds (verrrrrrry slow from a typical RC perspective.....)
    All I ask is for a chance to prove that money can\'t make me happy......

  19. #19

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    RE: Spin training

    Back in the 60's when I was a student, spin training was optional, unless you were likely to fly older aircraft that did not "self recover".
    The flying club I belonged to had a Cessna 140, which was such a plane, so spin training was part of familiarization. Some years later, in the 70's,
    I resumed flying after some small interruptions, such as the Vietnam war, and getting married. Aerobatics were part of the commercial / instrument training paid for by the GI bill, so naturally, I went through the basic course. The advanced course was discontinued, because the aerobatics instructor managed to do himself in flying a spray plane. I moved before a new instructor was found.

    During the overall training process, it was evident that there were major differences between instructors that had a corporate pilot base and those with WWII flying experience.
    It had to do with instrument vs "seat of pants", and how much weight was placed on each. The corporate people slavishly relied on instruments, and the WWII experienced pilots believed
    in developing a strong "feel" for the plane. The students taught by the corporate pilots tended to make more wheel landings in general, and those taught by the old timers more often made close to full stall landings. (To the point that the rear tie down ring on one of the Cessna trainers had to be replaced every so often, because the bottom of the ring eventually wore down) I remember making was was an otherwise perfect 3 point landing in the 140, to have the tail wheel spring shackles come apart due to metal fatigue in a who knows how old bolt. We had to borrow a baggage cart place the tail on it, and drag the 140 off the instrument runway, and back to the ramp. The tower's only real comment/question was did we leave any parts (FOD) on the runway. The periodic inspection criteria totally skipped checking the offending bolt.


  20. #20

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    RE: Spin training

    I did the same thing during my spin training..My first spin I held back on the yoke and did not break the stall properly and my instructor kept telling me on the ride back up, remember push forward on the control column remember push forward .. So when we entered the spin I applied opposite rudder and pushed that control column into the dash and flipped us upside down .. I remember the antenna slapping the rear window and the instructor saying whoa not that much easy pull back a bit and next thing I know we are nose down dropping like a rock and I pulled back some more and we were flying and laughing and talking over what I had done wrong this time..Your Instructor should have had his brief case properly secure especially knowing you were going up to do spin training and for him to lose his temper was way out of line. He should have been the one replacing the window..He should not be an instructor in my mind...I was pretty scared of spins and I think that's why I had trouble with them because they are so easy when you know how..I love doing them now...Its one of my favorite maneuvers with my models too. There is no way you can be expected to go through flight training without making a few mistakes...That is how we learn..An instructor is there to make sure we don't kill ore selves in the process of learning to fly..They should expect to be flipped upside down from time to time..Getting mad just make a stress full situation worse .. I was lucky enough to have a instructor that became a friend and we went on to have a few adventures together like skydiving ..
    Ken , Biker BC Cub Brother #6 Ultra Sport Brother # 100 Tiger Club # 7 Pulse Brother # 1 Sig Brother # 58 Top Flight Brother # 9

  21. #21
    Moderator AMA 74894's Avatar
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    RE: Spin training

    yup, early 80's, I did have to ASK specifically for spin training... I was flying 172's at the time, and frankly I had a MUCH harder time getting it INTO a spin.
    I did learn how to fly RC airplanes when I was four... so spin recognition wasn't such a big deal for me... my instructor wasn't 'typical' though... he actually WANTED to help folks LEARN to fly...
    (he wasn't just building time) .. one of his personal favorites: abeam the numbers on the downwind leg, he'd declare: 'Broken Elevator cable' ... use the trim lever and stay WAY ahead of the airplane, hands off the yoke...
    we'd do touch and goes like that for hours. obviously a broken elevator cable wasn't a likely 'real world' emergency... but it (he) taught me that the airplane WANTS to fly.... whenever you can LET it.
    but like wayne22 mentioned, I found extended flight at minimal airspeed to be tremendously helpful for me in both full scale and RC.
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  22. #22
    alpinestar's Avatar
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    RE: Spin training

    I believe the training emphasis these days is on prevention of spins versus recovery from one. Makes sense to me as recognizing when you're ABOUT to be in trouble (and correcting) is better than getting into deep doo-doo near the ground.... as in the base-final turn where (supposedly) most stall/spins occur.
    As as far as giving training, I would gladly do spin training for anyone interested IF it were in a plane which was worth spinning! I have experience spinning in a Pitts S2-B, my logged training (for CFI) was in a 172N. The cessna had such a lazy spin that I can't say it was worth the effort! Had to induce the spin with a steep stall, bank, and full rudder. Just let go of the yoke and it would recover. The Pitts was of course a lot more interesting and beneficial.

    Any advanced training makes one a better educated pilot. And it's fun!!

    my $.02

    CFI/MEI/II

  23. #23
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    RE: Spin training

    My spin training was done with R/C models. After 30 years of flying R/C I didn't really have any trouble doing mild acro (spins, loops, rolls, etc) in a full size plane.

  24. #24
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    RE: Spin training

    Unfortunately, the removal of spin training from the private pilot requirements in the early 70's was to lessen liability for the FAA examiners, a few of whom were lost during checkrides. The move toward more well-behaved aircraft that were either harder to spin or not approved also contributed to the removal. 

    It makes no sense, as the new private pilot is the one who will benefit the most from such training. 
    I might not be very good, but I'm fun to watch!

  25. #25
    cfircav8r's Avatar
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    RE: Spin training

    There is a lot of fear about spins and some that do still teach them are a little to comfortable with them. I truly believe that imminent stalls and spin recovery without actually entering a stalled/spin condition is a bad idea. I have found that most primary students can't feel when the plane is about to stall and end up relying on speed to determine when to recover, and this is a real bad habit and they don't truly learn what it feels like. On the other hand I have seen many instructors that will make the student hold at least three turns because "it is not fully in the spin until three full turns." While this is correct the recovery is the same with one turn or 20 so why push your luck? Only teaching imminent stalls doesn't teach you how to recognize a stall and you may still not notice it until it is too late when distracted. Saying you need need to do three turns to fully appreciate a spin is a bit far fetched. If you can't figure out you are entering a spin by the first turn you have far more problems than that. It is the immediate break and start of rotation that is the critical part to learn to recognize and practicing that aspect, the actual break and start of rotation really drives home what that feels like so you can better recognize it and prevent it.
    The three most useless things to a pilot, the sky above you, the runway behind you, and the fuel on the ground.


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